9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

michalooo wrote...
I find this topic very interesting to read but there is one thing I don't get.


Sheppard is standing there, probably bleeding to death. And now he is presented with choices. He is wounded and at the same time Reapers are decimating his allies. He doesn't have all the time in the world to think about singularity, unity, autonomy and all that philosophical stuff(which I find interesting). In character he has no idea that the choices he gets will have the results that the Catalyst presented(this concerns also destroy).

As for the time constraints: I don't know about your Shepard, but my Shepard is actually interested in these things and has always been. He's also thought in those terms about the Reapers ever since Rannoch. The choices presented to him come as a surprise, but he has an idea of what they might entail. As for seeing the outcome, the Catalyst says it itself: "Your belief is not required." It could lie, but then why not simply kill you? If it wants Synthesis, then why not lie about the part where the Reapers become part of civilization? If it wants Control, then why not lie about the part where you lose your connection with other sapients? The whole scenario only makes sense if the Catalyst tells you the truth, or if it has some secret agenda you cannot guess at, and in the latter case you don't have a chance anyway.   

Why in space would he risk anything that would involve keeping the reapers? He is to trust the Catalyst? The same one that believed for hundred of thousand of years that killing all civilizations is a form of preserving them? RLY?

So, why in space would you trust the Catalyst that Destroy actually destroys the Reapers? See above. As for keeping the Reapers around, there are two reasons:
(1) You might not want to kill all synthetics.
(2) If you listen you Legion's rare dialogue in ME2 (see this thread), then it becomes apparent that the harvested species could possibly be re-instantiated from the stored information. At the very least, their thoughts and memories and the information about their biology and material culture are preserved. There is evidence from a reliable source that the Catalyst is telling the truth when it says it preserves civiizations. See also EDI's cut dialogue from ME2's SM. Which means that it might be considered desirable to not destroy the Reapers.

[New Display Name]

So why does the green effect appear on armor and clothing? I'm trying to think of a reason so it doesn't distract me so much.

[LucasShark]

HJF4 wrote...

So why does the green effect appear on armor and clothing? I'm trying to think of a reason so it doesn't distract me so much.

Well... as far as we know people no longer reproduce so they are all fused into their clothing... I guess... or clothing is alive...

Oh wait: no it is just dumb.

[Eterna]

HJF4 wrote...

So why does the green effect appear on armor and clothing? I'm trying to think of a reason so it doesn't distract me so much.

I'd say technical limittions and or cost. It is far easier to slap green circuits over an entire model instead of just on specific places. 

[Nanox Vox]

HJF4 wrote...

So why does the green effect appear on armor and clothing? I'm trying to think of a reason so it doesn't distract me so much.

It's probably just a quick and dirty way to emphasize an "otherness" about the people who have been converted by the crucible.  

[Obadiah]

HJF4 wrote...

So why does the green effect appear on armor and clothing? I'm trying to think of a reason so it doesn't distract me so much.

Yikes, looking at other responses: E GADS such negativity.

Anyway, I have a theory for this!

The glowing circuit board on the organic skin is nanide "veins", but these veins can be willed into the immediate area as sensors, or to temporarily integrate pieces of clothing. In essence, they can turn your armor into a kind of synthetic skin. This gives organics better awareness of their environment.

Also works to explain the circuit board on the plants in the crash scene. That is from the crew of the Normandy subconsciously using their new nanides to gain an awareness of their envioronment, and trying to figure out where they are.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 mars 2013 - 12:51 .

[Ieldra]

I think the green eyes and circuit patterns on skin are artistic representations of a mostly invisible change (basically what Nanox Vox says), that the pattern on armor was the result of shoddy work by the artists (what Eterna5 says), and the pattern on the leaves the result of a miscommunication between the writers and the artists.

@Obadiah:
What is negative about this interpretation? I don't think every little aspect of the ending's visuals has to be interpreted with exclusively in-world logic. Bioware has said there are elements in the ending which are not meant to be taken literally, and I think this is one.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 mars 2013 - 01:08 .

[Obadiah]

@Iedldra2
My "negativity" comment was meant to be an inoffensive and somewhat facetious response that used hyperbole, in response to Lucas Sharks' full comment, and Eterna5's and Nonox Vox's use of "slap" and "quick and dirty" respectively.

The overall idea of "artistic representation" is by itself non-negative.

[MetioricTest]

Bioware has said there are elements in the ending which are not meant to be taken literally, and I think this is one.

Good lord synthesis is literally a religion

[Ieldra]

MetioricTest wrote...

Bioware has said there are elements in the ending which are not meant to be taken literally, and I think this is one.

Good lord synthesis is literally a religion

So...you think that patterns resembling crude approximations of 1980-style circuit-boards on the skin of people from the ME universe - and their armor and clothing - should be taken literally?

It appears your Synthesis antipathy has run away with your common sense.


 

[ruggly]

I wonder if food even looks like this



All joking aside, well...you know my thoughts.

[Obadiah]

Just thought of another explanation for the circuit board skin:

That was an initial reaction to the tech integration from the Synthesis wave. Over time, maybe a few decades, the effect faded as tech was fully and seamlessly integrated into Organics.

[Zered]

Ieldra2 wrote...


So, why in space would you trust the Catalyst that Destroy actually destroys the Reapers? See above. As for keeping the Reapers around, there are two reasons:
(1) You might not want to kill all synthetics.
(2) If you listen you Legion's rare dialogue in ME2 (see this thread), then it becomes apparent that the harvested species could possibly be re-instantiated from the stored information. At the very least, their thoughts and memories and the information about their biology and material culture are preserved. There is evidence from a reliable source that the Catalyst is telling the truth when it says it preserves civiizations. See also EDI's cut dialogue from ME2's SM. Which means that it might be considered desirable to not destroy the Reapers.

Well I did say that the risk applies to destroy as well. No arguement here. From this perspective the most logical way is the refuse ending but that is self rape. Might as well go with one of the catalysts choices(oh crap).

(1) Guess this depends on the character. It has been my goal since ME1 to break the machines.
(2) Didn't know about the Legion dialogue. Guess that changes the perspective a bit. Still I don't trust the little *****.

[JedTed]

Obadiah wrote...

Just thought of another explanation for the circuit board skin:

That was an initial reaction to the tech integration from the Synthesis wave. Over time, maybe a few decades, the effect faded as tech was fully and seamlessly integrated into Organics.

In my headcanon the glowing skin is purely and after effect from the Synthesis wave.  It will fade away shortly after but the green eyes would take a while to go away(maybe a year or two).

Afterwards, if two organics joined their minds intimatly their eyes would glow.  Similar to when the asari's eyes go black when having sex.

[Nanox Vox]

@ Obadiah

I didn't mean my comment to be negative in any way, I was only trying to say that the green circuitry was most likely a simple (albeit crude) way to show that the species of the galaxy had become something more than what they were before.

My personal idea behind the change is that once an individual is hit with the crucible wave, if they are organic the green glow is only brief except for the eyes. If they are synthetic, the status lights (such as the geth's optics and EDI's holographic eyepiece) would remain green unless required otherwise.

And in case anyone didn't already guess, Synthesis is my ending choice. (FLAME SHIELD UP)

[Obadiah]

@Nanox Vox OIC. My mistake on your intentions.

Back to the effect, there is a description in ME1 somewhere about a mogul who buys a planet because he has a vision from "beings of light."

Another interpretation of the Synthesis circuit-board glowing-eyes effect is that they actually amp-up to show power. Perhaps the effect naturally fades for beings that don't use it, but shows much more stronger for people that do? As individuals embrace the power in their daily lives, they would end up glowing even more, and appear as "beings of light."

[Ieldra]

I would like to discuss the following statement made by drayfish in another thread:

The only thing is, Bioware fundamentally, profoundly, mind-numbingly missed the whole point of offering such an evolutionary leap...

You can't just force it on everyone. 

You can't just arrogantly decide that you know better, that everyone else and all their silly little elemental beliefs in the sanctity of their own autonomy can just be overwritten (literally) because you say so.

There is a poetry, a beauty to the idea of Synthesis.  Were it a choice, that Shepard, as the advocate for such change, could offer freely to those who wanted to accept it; were it an offering that - simply by virtue of its truly being a better path forward for all life in the universe - would be willingly accepted by all sentient species willing to continue to grow forward in fellowship with one another; then yes, that would be a statement on that diversity and hope that someone like myself would like to see represented, somehow, in game.

But by turning it into a mutation that is inflicted upon all life without their consent; by delivering it as a necessary imposed eugenic step towards preventing war because only creatures with the same DNA can avoid mutual destruction; is not only patently idiotic, it contradicts and undermines the very purpose of such an offering in the first place.

It is proclaimed as an advancement, but administered like the castration  of the Krogan Gennophage.  I do not see how the two can satisfactorily resolve.

While Synthesis is, and will remain, my preferred choice, I think he raises a very valid point. While I, personally, can justify making the decision in the circumstances of ME3's ending, I think that the forced nature of the change robs the Synthesis of a poetic beauty it could otherwise have had, robs it of the inspiring, and - yes, I'll use the term - uplifting vibe which is the hallmark of true art.

Just imagine how things would feel if Shepard became the avatar of Synthesis, and the epilogue showed how it was adopted, with eagerness by some, with reluctance by others who recognized that they had to let go of holding their nature sacred, not at all by still others who would be left behind. Then it would end similar to the existing epilogue. I can envision such an epilogue in my mind, and it would be a poignant one, with joy and sadness intermingling but in the end bringing about a new age in which the conflicts that defined the old one have become meaningless.

What do you think of this? What do you others who chose Synthesis think about the fact that the change was forced on the whole galaxy? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? Was it completely ok? Is there any other scenario which would have worked better?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 mars 2013 - 04:13 .

[Heimdall]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What do you think of this? What do you others who chose Synthesis think about the fact that the change was forced on the whole galaxy? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? Was it completely ok? Is there any other scenario which would have worked better?

Frankly, I feel that Shepard is put in the position of making a choice for the entire galaxy in all the endings.  In Destroy, Shepard makes a decision for everyone that annihilates the Geth and EDI, possibly including the crippling of most technology.  In Control, Shepard makes a decision for everyone to be ruled/guided by a galactic overlord.  Change is forced on the galaxy in any case.  Given the other options, no, it did not make me feel terribly uncomfortable.  Is it okay?  Well, nobody is directly harmed by Synthesis, so more or less.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What do you think of this? What do you others who chose Synthesis think about the fact that the change was forced on the whole galaxy? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? Was it completely ok? Is there any other scenario which would have worked better?

It's hard to take that criticism seriously sometimes, because on here especially, it's exaggerated to levels of pure hysteria and made-up nonsense. Nonetheless, I do feel that point. I've never taken pleasure in that aspect of the decision (speaking of which, anyone who hasn't taken a looksie at that last thread linked in my sig should do so).

So, I get it, but it's justifiable in my eyes. It's kind of the opposite of Destroy - you're just asking organics to "take one for the team" rather than synthetics (and I see Destroy as justifiable as well).

All that being said, YES, Shepard as the "avatar" for Synthesis would be much-preferred. I was always a bit bummed out by the fact that I couldn't get a first-person POV of the change. Would've been neat!

[ruggly]

If that were the case, then I could pretty much put aside my problems with synthesis. I have a very hard time saying that Shepard speaks for the entire galaxy. For the races involved, yes, but not for the monkey cave men over there on planet Wubalub or whatever. In the case of destroy, change is only forced upon those that have any semblance of technology, or so I would think. If EMS is high enough, and those races we don't know about don't have AIs or VIs, then I would think that they're fine (or so I speculate).

Anyways, I digress, since you didn't ask about destroy. So yes, if Shepard were the avatar and offered it to people, that would have been fine. If it showed the reactions to it by different groups, not making it so happy cheery hoorah, even better.

Modifié par ruggly, 13 mars 2013 - 05:44 .

[Ieldra]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What do you think of this? What do you others who chose Synthesis think about the fact that the change was forced on the whole galaxy? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? Was it completely ok? Is there any other scenario which would have worked better?

It's hard to take that criticism seriously sometimes, because on here especially, it's exaggerated to levels of pure hysteria and made-up nonsense.

Yeah, I think so, too. Still, it's worth thinking about when presented in a different manner.

Nonetheless, I do feel that point. I've never taken pleasure in that aspect of the decision (speaking of which, anyone who hasn't taken a looksie at that last thread linked in my sig should do so).

So, I get it, but it's justifiable in my eyes. It's kind of the opposite of Destroy - you're just asking organics to "take one for the team" rather than synthetics (and I see Destroy as justifiable as well).

The same applies to Destroy btw.. I can justify it just like every other choice but Refuse, but it wouldn't have that genocidal vibe were the deaths it caused spread more evenly over the various species, or if it had destroyed relays instead of synthetics.

All that being said, YES, Shepard as the "avatar" for Synthesis would be much-preferred. I was always a bit bummed out by the fact that I couldn't get a first-person POV of the change. Would've been neat!

I have this image in my mind, the ME equivalent of JC Denton stepping out of the Helios transoformation chamber in Deus Ex. Would've been neat, indeed. Heh, never thought I'd say ME3's ending should've stayed closer to the one it was inspired by. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 mars 2013 - 05:54 .

[JedTed]

If the only way to bring Synthesis to the galaxy is to impose it on every organic being in the galaxy then i'm okay with that. Better to uplift everyone to the same level rather than leave a select few behind.

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2...
...
What do you think of this? What do you others who chose Synthesis think about the fact that the change was forced on the whole galaxy? Did it make you feel uncomfortable? Was it completely ok? Is there any other scenario which would have worked better?

Well, of course, in the Avatar version of Synthesis, Shepard gets to live, so right there it is more appealing.

Forcing a change on everyone does make me uncomfortable, but to me the simple answer is that you can ethically force something like Synthesis on people given the proper circumstance.

If the Catalyst is correct, then the galaxy of Mass Effect is such circumstance. There are two sides which, because of the nature of their differences, are doomed to an inevitable conflict which will lead one side, Shep's side, being wiped out. Shep can postpone it (Destroy or Control), or upend the differences to prevent the conflict. My Sheps usually pick Control or Destroy because they don't believe the Catalyst, or are just fine with postponing the inevitable conflict even in the face of certain annihilation. Besides, changing all life in the galaxy is... drastic.

But it is also beautiful. The idea that Shep would sacrifice himself to empower all life, his allies and his enemies, to bring everyone just a little bit closer together so we don't destroy each other... I like that ending.

This gets back to the real problem with climax: players just don't believe the Catalyst. I WISH Bioware had taken that fault with the climax more seriously.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 mars 2013 - 03:48 .

[Ieldra]

JedTed wrote...
If the only way to bring Synthesis to the galaxy is to impose it on every organic being in the galaxy then i'm okay with that. Better to uplift everyone to the same level rather than leave a select few behind.

If those people want to be left behind, I'd respect their choice if I could. But if it's all or none, then I'll choose "all". The alternative "avatar" version is is not a question of justification, but of aesthetics. 

[Examurai]

JedTed wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Just thought of another explanation for the circuit board skin:

That was an initial reaction to the tech integration from the Synthesis wave. Over time, maybe a few decades, the effect faded as tech was fully and seamlessly integrated into Organics.

In my headcanon the glowing skin is purely and after effect from the Synthesis wave.  It will fade away shortly after but the green eyes would take a while to go away(maybe a year or two).

Afterwards, if two organics joined their minds intimatly their eyes would glow.  Similar to when the asari's eyes go black when having sex.

@JedTed. That's exactly how I see it. It's only there temporary and it will slowly fade away over time. And the last part that I bolded,  never thought about that, I think thats a pretty cool idea.

Modifié par Examurai1, 15 mars 2013 - 06:33 .