9089 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Yestare7 wrote...
imagine living your life surrounded by reapers... knowing exactly what they are and how they were made.. imagine seeing a husk walking down the street to buy milk because he forgot that week to go shopping.. thats control and synthesis .. it would be like living in a horror movie twisted with walt disney magic... and that just creeps me out...

So, your whole argument is centered around the fact they are ugly.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 mars 2013 - 09:59 .

[Yestare7]

dreman9999 wrote...

Counter point...
Reapers implantation....Reapers control organics with implantation.
Star child with and head of reapers...Crucible used to let Star child implant all organics.
.....Reaper control all organics....
Bad.

So, quoting Shepard from ME1.
"You let them implant you!?Are you insane!?"

+1

[Yestare7]

MisterJB wrote...
So, your whole argument is centered around the fact they are ugly.

You are trying to summarize my post on one thing, in a condescending tone.

Did you even read the whole post? Did you read about Saren advertising Synthesis?
Did you think about the cosmic consequences of the insane AI?
ME2 - did you see how they "synthesized" humans into reaper form?

oh, and yes, they are ugly.

Modifié par Yestare7, 18 mars 2013 - 10:07 .

[Bill Casey]

I'm wondering how many reaper synthesizers let Ra'an experiment on Legion, and how many said the scientific benefits were off the table...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 18 mars 2013 - 10:06 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

If the Catalyst represents Lovecraft, how is choosing Synthesis saying "screw you" when its the AI's preferred choice?  For that matter, Destroy is the choice it most negatively portrays and the choice that, in how it is presented, the Catalyst seems to be trying to dissuade you from choosing. 

Frankly, as far as I am concerned the Reapers lost any Lovecraftian overtones they had the second the Catalyst was revealed to be the one pulling the strings.

Thats why I said almost!  There are obviously some differences, but the fears of Lovecraft and the fears of the catalyst that justify the creation of the reapers are pretty similiar.  Though the catalyst has the benefit of having the crucible change him, something Lovecraft never got.

I thought the catalyst solidified the reapers as lovecraftian horrors, as its pretty much what you would see if you pulled the curtain off of lovecraftian horrors.

@Ieldra
The catalyst was a destroyer up until the crucible, he just destroyed organics instead of synthetics.

If that's the case, then wouldn't that solidify the interpretations some have of the Catalyst's methods as self-fulfilling prophecy?  Lovecraft feared the unknown and manifested them as utterly alien entities in his writings.  The Catalyst was created to solve the problem of the conflict between organics and synthetics and a hypothetical an all-powerful artifical lifeform threatening the galaxy and its solution was to unleash all-powerful killing machines to routinely engage in campaigns of mass destruction whose very methods even promote conflict between synthetics and organics. 

In that case, its solution is virtually identical to the supposed problem and don't come off so much as unknowable but failing ideologically.

I suppose it depends on what you think the prophecy is.  To me the 'prophecy' was that all organics would be wiped out by synthetics. So the catalyst and co are actually preventing that from happening by capping the growth of all organics.  Why should it matter that it promotes conflict between synthetics and organics?  Conflict between the two is not what they are trying to avoid, but rather the erradication of one side.

[MisterJB]

Yestare7 wrote...
Did you even read the whole post? Did you read about Saren advertising Synthesis?

Association Fallacy.
The simple fact someone widely considered to be wrong advertises something that resembles Synthesis, does not make Synthesis itself an undesirable choice.

Did you think about the cosmic consequences of the insane AI?

There is no mention of any of this on your post. Just a one liner about "insane ideas".
And I see nothing that indicates the Catalyst is insane.

ME2 - did you see how they "synthesized" humans into reaper form?

So? Synthesis does nothing of the sort.
If we are going to demonize a technology simply because it can be used to cause harm, you might as well start by anything built by humans.

[Shaigunjoe]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think Lovecraft's stories suggest that there is some ultimate purpose to everything, but humanity can never know what it is, and even if they could discover it, they would be driven mad by it. I guess the purpose of the Catalyst and the Reapers is something like that?

Something like that, they would go mad, or live in self imposed ignorance.   I'll go ahead and post the quote I did so long ago, it is from the opening of Call of Cthulu:

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of
ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant
that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own
direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing
together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of
reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go
mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and
safety of a new dark age.

The purpose of the catalyst and the reapers is to prevent organics from voyaging far, which was inline with what Lovecraft thought of mankind.

That's an amazing quote. Not only does it fit rather well with the "spirit" of the ending choices, it's also a quote that I vehemently disagree with.

Edit: I think you should make a thread about this quote. Seriously, the Illusive Man makes statements that literally oppose Lovecraft's thinking, so there is some nice Mass Effect content that you can use in the thread.

It is a good quote, and I disagree with it as well, but it certainly does show a lot of what Lovecraft thought about technology and what motivated him to create the old gods to begin with.

[Yestare7]

 
@MisterJB: 

"widely considered to be wrong"   ROFL!    no, Saren was a real good citizen

You see nothing that indicates the Catalyst is insane? OMG man, think about this one!!
he turned his creators into the first Reaper (hence the quote!)  and has been killing CIVILIZATIONS for MILLLIONS of years. Now if you cannot concede that that is insane, than humanity is ready to be harvested.

"Synthesis does nothing of the sort"  we have to agree to disagree.




Y

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

If the Catalyst represents Lovecraft, how is choosing Synthesis saying "screw you" when its the AI's preferred choice?  For that matter, Destroy is the choice it most negatively portrays and the choice that, in how it is presented, the Catalyst seems to be trying to dissuade you from choosing. 

Frankly, as far as I am concerned the Reapers lost any Lovecraftian overtones they had the second the Catalyst was revealed to be the one pulling the strings.

Thats why I said almost!  There are obviously some differences, but the fears of Lovecraft and the fears of the catalyst that justify the creation of the reapers are pretty similiar.  Though the catalyst has the benefit of having the crucible change him, something Lovecraft never got.

I thought the catalyst solidified the reapers as lovecraftian horrors, as its pretty much what you would see if you pulled the curtain off of lovecraftian horrors.

@Ieldra
The catalyst was a destroyer up until the crucible, he just destroyed organics instead of synthetics.

If that's the case, then wouldn't that solidify the interpretations some have of the Catalyst's methods as self-fulfilling prophecy?  Lovecraft feared the unknown and manifested them as utterly alien entities in his writings.  The Catalyst was created to solve the problem of the conflict between organics and synthetics and a hypothetical an all-powerful artifical lifeform threatening the galaxy and its solution was to unleash all-powerful killing machines to routinely engage in campaigns of mass destruction whose very methods even promote conflict between synthetics and organics. 

In that case, its solution is virtually identical to the supposed problem and don't come off so much as unknowable but failing ideologically.

I suppose it depends on what you think the prophecy is.  To me the 'prophecy' was that all organics would be wiped out by synthetics. So the catalyst and co are actually preventing that from happening by capping the growth of all organics.  Why should it matter that it promotes conflict between synthetics and organics?  Conflict between the two is not what they are trying to avoid, but rather the erradication of one side.

I'm just saying if we want to draw narrative parallels between the Reapers and Lovecraft in terms of motives rather than the trappings it becomes strange.  Essentially, what we would be left with is that in wanting to save people from the threat of Dark Lord Cthulhu someone created a debatably less horrible Cthulhu that terrorizes them anyway.

[MisterJB]

Yestare7 wrote...
"widely considered to be wrong"   ROFL!    no, Saren was a real good citizen

Whether I agree or disagree with Saren is entirely irrelevant to the matter of Synthesis. Simply because he proposed something similar, does not mean Synthesis itself is undesirable.

You see nothing that indicates the Catalyst is insane? OMG man, think about this one!!
he turned his creators into the first Reaper (hence the quote!)  and has been killing CIVILIZATIONS for MILLLIONS of years. Now if you cannot concede that that is insane, than humanity is ready to be harvested.

It makes perfect sense from the perspective of the Catalyst. An an immortal super-intelligence, the way it views the galaxy will, naturally, differ from the way organics view it.
Obviously, the Catalyst does not consider the process of convertion into a Reaper to be death but rebirth. Therefore, from its point of view, it is preserving species that would, otherwise, be extinguished.
The fact organics don't like its methods does not change the fact they are logically sound. The Catalyst shows no sign of being insane.

And also, its mental soundness is irrelevant to the matter of Synthesis since the Catalyst can't affect it.

"Synthesis does nothing of the sort"  we have to agree to disagree.

This is not a subjective matter. Kindly explain to me how anything shown in the Synthesis ending equals people being liquified.

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

If the Catalyst represents Lovecraft, how is choosing Synthesis saying "screw you" when its the AI's preferred choice?  For that matter, Destroy is the choice it most negatively portrays and the choice that, in how it is presented, the Catalyst seems to be trying to dissuade you from choosing. 

Frankly, as far as I am concerned the Reapers lost any Lovecraftian overtones they had the second the Catalyst was revealed to be the one pulling the strings.

Thats why I said almost!  There are obviously some differences, but the fears of Lovecraft and the fears of the catalyst that justify the creation of the reapers are pretty similiar.  Though the catalyst has the benefit of having the crucible change him, something Lovecraft never got.

I thought the catalyst solidified the reapers as lovecraftian horrors, as its pretty much what you would see if you pulled the curtain off of lovecraftian horrors.

@Ieldra
The catalyst was a destroyer up until the crucible, he just destroyed organics instead of synthetics.

If that's the case, then wouldn't that solidify the interpretations some have of the Catalyst's methods as self-fulfilling prophecy?  Lovecraft feared the unknown and manifested them as utterly alien entities in his writings.  The Catalyst was created to solve the problem of the conflict between organics and synthetics and a hypothetical an all-powerful artifical lifeform threatening the galaxy and its solution was to unleash all-powerful killing machines to routinely engage in campaigns of mass destruction whose very methods even promote conflict between synthetics and organics. 

In that case, its solution is virtually identical to the supposed problem and don't come off so much as unknowable but failing ideologically.

I suppose it depends on what you think the prophecy is.  To me the 'prophecy' was that all organics would be wiped out by synthetics. So the catalyst and co are actually preventing that from happening by capping the growth of all organics.  Why should it matter that it promotes conflict between synthetics and organics?  Conflict between the two is not what they are trying to avoid, but rather the erradication of one side.

I'm just saying if we want to draw narrative parallels between the Reapers and Lovecraft in terms of motives rather than the trappings it becomes strange.  Essentially, what we would be left with is that in wanting to save people from the threat of Dark Lord Cthulhu someone created a debatably less horrible Cthulhu that terrorizes them anyway.

Not entirely sure what you mean by negative parrellels, but I don't think it really matters.  Your analogy makes it clear you are missing the point, it wasn't that someone wanted to save people from Dark Lord Cthulu so they created a slightly less worse one.  It was that they created the Dark Lord Cthulhu to save people from something unimaginable.  Another interesting parallel, as Lovecraft was absolutly freaked by Einstein's relativity, and it's reliance on non euclidean geometry (which is why he described the alien realms in his writing as having non euclidean geometry) .  He feared that such technological advances would plunge the world into, guess what? Chaos.  Sound familiar?

Embracing the unkown and unpredicatlbe is why sythesis is such a middle finger to the ideals that the Reapers represented.

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Not entirely sure what you mean by negative parrellels, but I don't think it really matters.  Your analogy makes it clear you are missing the point, it wasn't that someone wanted to save people from Dark Lord Cthulu so they created a slightly less worse one.  It was that they created the Dark Lord Cthulhu to save people from something unimaginable.  Another interesting parallel, as Lovecraft was absolutly freaked by Einstein's relativity, and it's reliance on non euclidean geometry (which is why he described the alien realms in his writing as having non euclidean geometry) .  He feared that such technological advances would plunge the world into, guess what? Chaos.  Sound familiar?

Embracing the unkown and unpredicatlbe is why sythesis is such a middle finger to the ideals that the Reapers represented.

The point of the analogy is why the parallels would be out of place and ill-fitting and why I think Lovecraft has little to do with synthesis.  Otherwise, the writing behind the endings comes off as even worse.

If the writers honestly wanted synthesis to be considered a rejection of what the Reapers represent, they shouldn't have made the one who regards it as the "perfect solution" be the Reapers' master introduced at the last minute regardless of whatever developments have occurred.

[ghost9191]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

3) i don't think destroy shunns tech just the reapers

that's not a welcome belief on this thread

You're a luddite if you pick destroy 

well i am all for you thinking that . but never got it. You just destroy synthetics not all tech

and well iluddite doesn't actually describe someone who picks destroy , just the fact that the races of the galaxy actually learn more when they rebuild would say different. they learn how the tech actually works rather than just using it

and well without the reapers to stop it you would actually advance beyond the current tech lvl of the ME universe. but that is just my view on the whole luddite thing

i mean i don't run around calling everyone that chooses synthesis a misanthropist.  although

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Not entirely sure what you mean by negative parrellels, but I don't think it really matters.  Your analogy makes it clear you are missing the point, it wasn't that someone wanted to save people from Dark Lord Cthulu so they created a slightly less worse one.  It was that they created the Dark Lord Cthulhu to save people from something unimaginable.  Another interesting parallel, as Lovecraft was absolutly freaked by Einstein's relativity, and it's reliance on non euclidean geometry (which is why he described the alien realms in his writing as having non euclidean geometry) .  He feared that such technological advances would plunge the world into, guess what? Chaos.  Sound familiar?

Embracing the unkown and unpredicatlbe is why sythesis is such a middle finger to the ideals that the Reapers represented.

The point of the analogy is why the parallels would be out of place and ill-fitting and why I think Lovecraft has little to do with synthesis.  Otherwise, the writing behind the endings comes off as even worse.

If the writers honestly wanted synthesis to be considered a rejection of what the Reapers represent, they shouldn't have made the one who regards it as the "perfect solution" be the Reapers' master introduced at the last minute regardless of whatever developments have occurred.

That's precisely the point, Lovecraft would have little to do with synthesis, it is clear that he felt human kind was never meant to achieve such a result.

What do you think the reapers represent?  Throughout the series, I thought they represented technolgical stagnation through destruction and control, certainly those are the antithesis of what synthesis is.

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Not entirely sure what you mean by negative parrellels, but I don't think it really matters.  Your analogy makes it clear you are missing the point, it wasn't that someone wanted to save people from Dark Lord Cthulu so they created a slightly less worse one.  It was that they created the Dark Lord Cthulhu to save people from something unimaginable.  Another interesting parallel, as Lovecraft was absolutly freaked by Einstein's relativity, and it's reliance on non euclidean geometry (which is why he described the alien realms in his writing as having non euclidean geometry) .  He feared that such technological advances would plunge the world into, guess what? Chaos.  Sound familiar?

Embracing the unkown and unpredicatlbe is why sythesis is such a middle finger to the ideals that the Reapers represented.

The point of the analogy is why the parallels would be out of place and ill-fitting and why I think Lovecraft has little to do with synthesis.  Otherwise, the writing behind the endings comes off as even worse.

If the writers honestly wanted synthesis to be considered a rejection of what the Reapers represent, they shouldn't have made the one who regards it as the "perfect solution" be the Reapers' master introduced at the last minute regardless of whatever developments have occurred.

That's precisely the point, Lovecraft would have little to do with synthesis, it is clear that he felt human kind was never meant to achieve such a result.

What do you think the reapers represent?  Throughout the series, I thought they represented technolgical stagnation through destruction and control, certainly those are the antithesis of what synthesis is.

From a purely superficial standpoint, they are Lovecraftian horrors made more mundane to fit into the story being told; Legion says as much about them in the third game although I doubt they represent technological stagnation specifically (this is a definate byproduct of their methodology, however). 

As long as the cycle is in place civilizations certainly cannot advance beyond a certain degree technologically, though the threat of total subjugation and extinction are far worse consequences. If I were to say they represented anything, it would be oppression that prevents self-determination.

[CosmicGnosis]

The Catalyst lacks the perspective of individual beings. It has no understanding of what being "alive" really means. It's more concerned with "life" as a large-scale concept. I think that is why it appears as the child from Earth.

If my interpretation is correct, what does Synthesis mean in this context? Is it a choice that completely disregards the perspective of the individual? And if so, is the choice really ideal for all beings for all time? I know I've talked about this in the past, but it's on my mind again...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 19 mars 2013 - 06:58 .

[Yestare7]

MisterJB wrote...


The fact organics don't like its methods does not change the fact they are logically sound. The Catalyst shows no sign of being insane.

* deep sigh......  shakes head in sadness.....reads above senrence again..... I am so glad not to know you.



This is not a subjective matter. Kindly explain to me how anything shown in the Synthesis ending equals people being liquified.

* Being changed by Reaper tech is close enough. I'm done.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
The Catalyst lacks the perspective of individual beings. It has no understanding of what being "alive" really means. It's more concerned with "life" as a large-scale concept. I think that is why it appears as the child from Earth.

If my interpretation is correct, what does Synthesis mean in this context? Is it a choice that completely disregards the perspective of the individual? And if so, is the choice really ideal for all beings for all time? I know I've talked about this in the past, but it's on my mind again...

Some serious false assumptions here:

(1) Being alive does not imply the perspective of an individual. There's plenty of life without such a perspective.
(2) The Catalyst has studied the development and advancement of civilizations. it can't have done that without studying interaction between individuals.
(3) A certain balance between the individual and the community is part of a species' identity, at the cultural level at least. Part of its "essence", in Catalyst speak. It is not plausible the Catalyst doesn't understand that.

As for what Synthesis does, I think it actually empowers the individual by tech integration and access to vast repositories of knowledge. I don't know if this aspect was important from the Catalyst's perspective, but it serves its objectives - to bring organics and synthetics to the same level. As for being "ideal for all beings for all time" - of course not. Nothing is. Synthesis is intended to solve one problem. Issues unrelated to that problem will not be addressed, unless they could result in extinction and could be known by the Catalyst in advance - which isn't a foregone conclusion since post-Synthesis civilization will be apt to develop in unexpected ways. Post-Synthesis civilization will still face challenges.

[Mobius-Silent]

Yestare7 wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
The fact organics don't like its methods does not change the fact they are logically sound. The Catalyst shows no sign of being insane.
* deep sigh......  shakes head in sadness.....reads above senrence again..... I am so glad not to know you.

In all seriousness, you're sounding... less than stable, we are discussing a fictional setting and talking about the motivations of a multi-billion year old AI, to do this honestly you need to get out of your confort zone, while your argument seem to amount to "I don't understand it, it look bad to me" and you're responding with Ad hominim attacks, and unexplained dismissal, not cool.

How about this... lets start simply: define sentient organic life in terms that an emotionless machine could understand. Just try it, they we'll go from there, consider this the "training wheels" of this discussion.

Yestare7 wrote...
* Being changed by Reaper tech is close enough. I'm done.

Synthesis is enacted by tech created by the past cycles organics, The Relay Network is just that... a network of relays, It's a projector of dark energy, the Crucible does the rest. The Catalyst does not control _any_ of the options, is is _not_ "Reaper Tech" (Also note that Reaper tech isn't actually "Reaper tech" it's co-opted Leviathan tech)

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Some serious false assumptions here:

(1) Being alive does not imply the perspective of an individual. There's plenty of life without such a perspective.
(2) The Catalyst has studied the development and advancement of civilizations. it can't have done that without studying interaction between individuals.
(3) A certain balance between the individual and the community is part of a species' identity, at the cultural level at least. Part of its "essence", in Catalyst speak. It is not plausible the Catalyst doesn't understand that.

As for what Synthesis does, I think it actually empowers the individual by tech integration and access to vast repositories of knowledge. I don't know if this aspect was important from the Catalyst's perspective, but it serves its objectives - to bring organics and synthetics to the same level. As for being "ideal for all beings for all time" - of course not. Nothing is. Synthesis is intended to solve one problem. Issues unrelated to that problem will not be addressed, unless they could result in extinction and could be known by the Catalyst in advance - which isn't a foregone conclusion since post-Synthesis civilization will be apt to develop in unexpected ways. Post-Synthesis civilization will still face challenges.

I suppose you're right. It's just hard to ignore the fact that Synthesis forces a change on a being. It's too similar to the forced husk transformation, in that a change occurs without the consent of the individual. That's really my greatest lingering problem with the endings. Every choice is "tainted" by some aspect of the Catalyst's methods. Destroy resets the galaxy, just like the Reapers do. Control guides the galaxy, just like the Reapers do. Synthesis forcibly integrates organics with technology, just like the Reapers do. Refuse allows the Reapers to outright win, although they are defeated in a future cycle.

[Mobius-Silent]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for what Synthesis does, I think it actually empowers the individual by tech integration and access to vast repositories of knowledge.

I don't think there is any need for synthesis to provide "access to vast repositories of knowledge" in the way you describe. The only parts that are needed to mitigate the inevitable conflict are:

1. Organics need a route to suppass mortality that doesn't lead to the creation of standalone synthetics, which leads to envy and enslavement. The framework provides that route while not immediatly being the endpoint.
2. Synthetics need to understand the value of organic life implicitly not explicitly (In ME this is essentialy sentience vs sapience, pure resoning vs resoning tempered with feelings, as illustrated by EDI in the EC) the framework gives them this.

The two types of life also now have a common base to work with, allowing them to share progress and development.

There _may_ also be some kind of automatic networking, and information sharing, but it's not a requirement for synthesis to function as described in ME3. If the beings we previously called the Reapers still exist then the knowledge they hold can be shared without the need for tech to do it implicitly. Personally I find it... wishfull thinking.

[Yestare7]

I apologize for the attack, that's not me. Could not believe anyone would stand up for the insane AI

Have a nice day.

[Mobius-Silent]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I suppose you're right. It's just hard to ignore the fact that Synthesis forces a change on a being. It's too similar to the forced husk transformation, in that a change occurs without the consent of the individual. That's really my greatest lingering problem with the endings. Every choice is "tainted" by some aspect of the Catalyst's methods. Destroy resets the galaxy, just like the Reapers do. Control guides the galaxy, just like the Reapers do. Synthesis forcibly integrates organics with technology, just like the Reapers do. Refuse allows the Reapers to outright win, although they are defeated in a future cycle.

All of the things you just attributed to the Reapers/Catalyst, Organics do as well, just on a smaller scale. You could also say that spaceflight involves moving in space "just like the reapers do".

Garrus decided to pull back the fleet from Palaven, He condemed million of Turians to die in one of the most horrible way imaginable, similar decisions were made by the other species in the Galaxy. The endings make similar decisions at a larger scale, but they are our choices using our technology.

The biggest failure of Bioware's in ME3 was the failure to illustrate that the choices you get have _nothing to do with the Reapers_ and were wholely created by the combined efforts of the previous cycles organics, the OC was _terrible_ in failing to point this out and the EC was only slightly better, "suprise-antagonist-as-narrator" was a terrible idea, however if you look past that failure and see the intent (The destroy and control consoles came from the Crucible, the Catalyst states it can't do anything about the options, etc etc) the choices are intented to be difficult but not a case of collusion-with-the-enemy that so many assume.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 19 mars 2013 - 09:39 .

[Ieldra]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for what Synthesis does, I think it actually empowers the individual by tech integration and access to vast repositories of knowledge.

I don't think there is any need for synthesis to provide "access to vast repositories of knowledge" in the way you describe. The only parts that are needed to mitigate the inevitable conflict are:

1. Organics need a route to suppass mortality that doesn't lead to the creation of standalone synthetics, which leads to envy and enslavement. The framework provides that route while not immediatly being the endpoint.
2. Synthetics need to understand the value of organic life implicitly not explicitly (In ME this is essentialy sentience vs sapience, pure resoning vs resoning tempered with feelings, as illustrated by EDI in the EC) the framework gives them this.

The two types of life also now have a common base to work with, allowing them to share progress and development.

There _may_ also be some kind of automatic networking, and information sharing, but it's not a requirement for synthesis to function as described in ME3. If the beings we previously called the Reapers still exist then the knowledge they hold can be shared without the need for tech to do it implicitly. Personally I find it... wishfull thinking.

I agree it is not necessary, but the Catalyst talks about "unlimited access to knowledge" and says "the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all". I don't think there will be permanently active links which work like a brain extension, for reasons of mental health if not for any other, but some kind of mental networking appears to be implied. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 mars 2013 - 09:51 .

[Ieldra]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I suppose you're right. It's just hard to ignore the fact that Synthesis forces a change on a being. It's too similar to the forced husk transformation, in that a change occurs without the consent of the individual. That's really my greatest lingering problem with the endings. Every choice is "tainted" by some aspect of the Catalyst's methods. Destroy resets the galaxy, just like the Reapers do. Control guides the galaxy, just like the Reapers do. Synthesis forcibly integrates organics with technology, just like the Reapers do. Refuse allows the Reapers to outright win, although they are defeated in a future cycle.

All of the things you just attributed to the Reapers/Catalyst, Organics do as well, just on a smaller scale. You could also say that spaceflight involves moving in space "just like the reapers do".

Garrus decided to pull back the fleet from Palaven, He condemed million of Turians to die in one of the most horrible way imaginable, similar decisions were made by the other species in the Galaxy. The endings make similar decisions at a larger scale, but they are our choices using our technology.

The biggest failure of Bioware's in ME3 was the failure to illustrate that the choices you get have _nothing to do with the Reapers_ and were wholely created by the combined efforts of the previous cycles organics, the OC was _terrible_ in failing to point this out and the EC was only slightly better, "suprise-antagonist-as-narrator" was a terrible idea, however if you look past that failure and see the intent (The destroy and control consoles came from the Crucible, the Catalyst states it can't do anything about the options, etc etc) the choices are intented to be difficult but not a case of collusion-with-the-enemy that so many assume.

I think this point can't be overstated. To me it was always obvious that none of the endings were intended to be a collusion with the enemy, to the point that it took me by surprise to see that some people interpreted them that way. "You must act", "You changed the variables" and "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen" are rather obvious in that regard. The fact that the Catalyst is the one presenting the choices tends to mask this, and making the antagonist the narrator of the ending exposition was an epic storytelling blunder by Bioware in the last ten minutes of the trilogy, but it's still rather easy to see beyond it.