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[CaptainCommander]

Dendio1 wrote...

CaptainCommander wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

CaptainCommander wrote...

Synthesis is wrong! Just think for a second humans don't exists in the Mass Effect universe and someone else activates the Crucible and selects Synthesis and humanity is now changed into half organic and half synthetic race. Half our population would kill themselves because they would be terrified or think its judgement day or their laptops would be speaking to them and smartphones would be telling them they look at too many dirty websites. The rest of the population would now assume that some sort of machine god rules over us with the power to change our DNA. We would stagnate in our advancement and our culture would die (Mordin states technology destroys culture). So by forcing the Galaxy to become Saren's twisted dream you doom every pre-flight speicies to stagnation and death. And that makes up the majority of the billions of stars in the galaxy. And if you are of the view point that Synthesis creates homogeneity in life then you ruin the very thing that makes life great. Synthesis is bad! It is a Reaper trap if there ever was one!

We have a few things that point to synthesis being a..peaceful transition. We observe EDI calmly telling us about her new capabilities. EDI is not scared or confused with her new access to organic capabilities. We see the reaction from organics to synthesis. Krogans, Turians, even humans all look calm and curious about the change. We see reapers yielding knowledge from every race ever catalogued, we see technological progress and rebuilding.

While there was always a chance for things to go horribly wrong, the extended cut shows us that a high EMS crucible gets it right

Yes races in the cycle that know about the Reapers and advanced space flight. You forget that isn't the entire Galaxy. Synthesis changes the ENTIRE galaxy in hybrids by force! No race in early development is gonna turn out well from that!! Imagine the Robot on the ISS suddenly being alive. Astronauts would go mad. Imagine ancient Egyptians suddenly being hybrids! You are litterally forcing every race to your ideal! A galactic wide dictatorship!!! They galaxy in ME is made up of mostly of pre-spaceflight speices and you just changed ALL of them

The change is forced yes, but it peacefully expands capabilties of both organics and synthetics. Furthermore, where control leaves the reapers enforcing shepards will upon all, synthesis leaves the universe to its own devices.

And destroy lets the universe live however it whats too and achieve what ever goals it wants too. Doesn't impose any forced action on anyone. "Everything can be rebuilt"
And it isn't peaceful!! EVERY thing is now a hybrid tiger, lions, ants, single cell organisms. Speices living in caves, species living in mud huts, species living in modern(21st) houses are hybrids!! No choice! Being forced to accept something happening to you isn't peace!!! A country under occupation without a resistence might have "peace" but they don't have choice in the matter. A galaxy full of hybrids is stagnated! If synthesis really is the ultimate goal of life then no one has any reason or means to advance. No culture, no advancement. 

"All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations. Can't carry a load so invent wheel. Can't catch food so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations no advancement, culture stagnant. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready... disastrous."

Modifié par CaptainCommander, 20 mars 2013 - 11:34 .

[Ieldra]

@CaptainCommander:
EDI makes it pretty clear that there is no stagnation. In fact, Synthesis is advancement-themed more than any other ending. The Catalyst's "final evolution" is bullsh*t and it always was. A typical case of Hollywood Evolution. I wonder why people are still allowed to use such craptastic concepts in their stories.

It's also pretty clear that Mordin's "advancement before culture is ready" doesn't apply. The Catalyst explicitly tells you. As for limitations, those are not gone, but just of a different kind than before. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 mars 2013 - 11:44 .

[CaptainCommander]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's also pretty clear that Mordin's "advancement before culture is ready" doesn't apply. The Catalyst explicitly tells you. As for limitations, those are not gone, but just of a different kind than before.  

Its not!!! The extent of synthesis isn't bubble! That is how your view is coming across to me! YOU CHANGE ALL LIFE!!! In the WHOLE  galaxy! Life that has just begun, life that is about to discover space flight and the relays. You are force all aspects of this to stop, to change! They have choice and no say in the matter StarChild and Shepard force the StarChild and Saren's will on to everything in the galaxy!! 

"My way is the only way any of us will survive. I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed." 

You basically tell Saren everything he did was wrong and then decide no hes right. A fusion of organic and synthetic is right and we must now force it on the entire galaxy! Its wrong!!!!

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" 

Modifié par CaptainCommander, 20 mars 2013 - 01:15 .

[Obadiah]

@CaptainCommander
"Changing all life in the galaxy" and "removing all limitations" are not the same thing. Saren's speech is simply ironic, not a indication that a union of "flesh and steel" is absolutely bad or wrong.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 mars 2013 - 02:04 .

[Ieldra]

@CaptainCommander
You may want to read the OP of this thread before you rehash this old argument. The changes themselves are not Saren's "union of flesh and steel". Watch the EC. They are changes in biochemistry which enable technology integration. Civilizations with technology not complex enough to be integrated will not be affected. One possible exception is the mental networking, but that's speculation anyway.

Also, Saren's vision was not necessarily wrong. Wrong, that was his belief the Reapers would realize it, and for that I called him out. I called him out on "isn't submission preferable to extinction", not about this vision of a future hybrid civilization as such.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 mars 2013 - 02:10 .

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CaptainCommander
You may want to read the OP of this thread before you rehash this old argument. The changes themselves are not Saren's "union of flesh and steel". Watch the EC. They are changes in biochemistry which enable technology integration. Civilizations with technology not complex enough to be integrated will not be affected. One possible exception is the mental networking, but that's speculation anyway.

Also, Saren's vision was not necessarily wrong. Wrong, that was his belief the Reapers would realize it, and for that I called him out. I called him out on "isn't submission preferable to extinction", not about this vision of a future hybrid civilization as such.  

.   Bull.  Even plants are shown to be affected by it.  There is no way any organic civilization is unaffected.  It just isn't possible.

And the Reapers did realize his vision.  The Reapers are a form of synthesis in every sense.  They are a combination of "flesh and steel" and are "Free from all weakness". Like it or not Saren espouses synthesis exactly as it is shown.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CaptainCommander
You may want to read the OP of this thread before you rehash this old argument. The changes themselves are not Saren's "union of flesh and steel". Watch the EC. They are changes in biochemistry which enable technology integration. Civilizations with technology not complex enough to be integrated will not be affected. One possible exception is the mental networking, but that's speculation anyway.

Also, Saren's vision was not necessarily wrong. Wrong, that was his belief the Reapers would realize it, and for that I called him out. I called him out on "isn't submission preferable to extinction", not about this vision of a future hybrid civilization as such.  

.   Bull.  Even plants are shown to be affected by it.  There is no way any organic civilization is unaffected.  It just isn't possible.

And the Reapers did realize his vision.  The Reapers are a form of synthesis in every sense.  They are a combination of "flesh and steel" and are "Free from all weakness". Like it or not Saren espouses synthesis exactly as it is shown.

Synthesis is the realization of Saren's vision. And the Reapers. By the Reapers prescribed means.

That alone makes it undesirable. If synthesis is going to happen it needs to follow some guidelines.

Here are mine: 
http://social.biowar...9404/4#16076107

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 20 mars 2013 - 02:29 .

[Yestare7]

CaptainCommander wrote...



Its not!!! The extent of synthesis isn't bubble! That is how your view is coming across to me! YOU CHANGE ALL LIFE!!! In the WHOLE  galaxy! Life that has just begun, life that is about to discover space flight and the relays. You are force all aspects of this to stop, to change! They have choice and no say in the matter StarChild and Shepard force the StarChild and Saren's will on to everything in the galaxy!! 

"My way is the only way any of us will survive. I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed." 

You basically tell Saren everything he did was wrong and then decide no hes right. A fusion of organic and synthetic is right and we must now force it on the entire galaxy! Its wrong!!!!

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" 

I support CaptainCommander. The idea of Synthesis is an abomination.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CaptainCommander
You may want to read the OP of this thread before you rehash this old argument. The changes themselves are not Saren's "union of flesh and steel". Watch the EC. They are changes in biochemistry which enable technology integration. Civilizations with technology not complex enough to be integrated will not be affected. One possible exception is the mental networking, but that's speculation anyway.

Also, Saren's vision was not necessarily wrong. Wrong, that was his belief the Reapers would realize it, and for that I called him out. I called him out on "isn't submission preferable to extinction", not about this vision of a future hybrid civilization as such.  

.   Bull.  Even plants are shown to be affected by it.  There is no way any organic civilization is unaffected.  It just isn't possible.

They changes in biochemistry affects everyone, yes. But what can be done with them if there is no technology to integrate? Nothing! And exactly that will happen to civilizations not sufficiently advanced.

And the Reapers did realize his vision.  The Reapers are a form of synthesis in every sense.  They are a combination of "flesh and steel" and are "Free from all weakness". Like it or not Saren espouses synthesis exactly as it is shown.

:lol:
So......Synthesis forcibly uploads and conjoins minds while destroying the organic bodies? I think the "sacred nature" intuition has run away with your common sense.

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I'm not sure why you think it is arrogant to assume that, some people simply like there stories straight forward, I never even insuinated there was something wrong with that. Its just that if you do, you definitly won't like the endings. If you don't mind puzzling things out for yourself and drawing your own conclusions, the ending is so overwhelming open ended that you can pretty much do whatever you want with it.

I feel like thats a pretty weak case that the reapers were retooled, the reapers were largly open to interpretation by the player in ME1 as well, you can build a decent argument that they didn't exist at all. ME2 squander's that a bit, although toy around a bit with the illusive man and you may be able to make something around that as well if you ignore extended universe stuff (which is definilty worth ignoring)

ME1 just viewed lovecraft horrors through one perspective, and ME3 gave a different one. If they had gone with the dark energy plot, then yes, that would have been a retooling of the reapers.

It's arrogant to assume people don't like ME3's endings specifically because they aren't straightforward; people can and do dislike them for any number of reasons beyond that.  And it is insulting because the implication behind saying such is that they don't like the endings because they don't "get" them and thus are evaluating them from a somehow "less enlightened" or "unimaginative" standpoint. All of this is doubly relevant for Synthesis, because many that choose it not only tend interpret it along the lines of "embracing the unknown" (which is a valid interpretation of it) but also often characterize those that don't as not doing so because of some "deficency" on their part.

Just because the Reapers were open to interpretation does not mean just anything could have been used as adequate explaination, and by extension of what the Catalyst was, not just anything could be used to do away with them. Retroactively making them mere pawns to some wannabe benevolent force with a sympathetic (in theory) appearance at the very end whose only real function gameplay-wise was giving a sales pitch for Synthesis was a recipe for disaster. People do not trust the Catalyst nor the validity of its "perfect solution" because they have no real reason to given all previous experience with the Reapers. Or rather, if immersion has already been lost, see no need for the presence of either as they exist in the game.

It isn't arrogant to assume some people don't like the ending's because they are not straightforward.  It is absolutly true, there were many people who just wanted a standard galactic victory type of ending, and sometimes when I explain my interpretations to people, there response is just 'why didn't they just show us that!'.

What is arrogant is thinking that people who prefer straight forward storytelling don't 'get it'.  Which is what you are doing, not me.  Not 'getting' art is not the same as not 'getting' calculus.  People approach art from different angles, a lot of which has to do with what paths they have taken in their own lives.  I don't think there is anything wrong with liking story telling like that (There is a reason why most of the people I know don't like reading Gene Wolfe, or believe Slaughterhouse 5 is science fiction), mearly that would be the only reason to not like the endings, because it is open enough to do whatever you like with it.  You are wrong, the puzzle pieces they left behind can easily be used to explain the reapers just about anyway you like, or the Catalyst, and each ending.  The problems you are listing have to do with taken what is given at face value.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 20 mars 2013 - 03:08 .

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...
They changes in biochemistry affects everyone, yes. But what can be done with them if there is no technology to integrate? Nothing! And exactly that will happen to civilizations not sufficiently advanced.

And the Reapers did realize his vision.  The Reapers are a form of synthesis in every sense.  They are a combination of "flesh and steel" and are "Free from all weakness". Like it or not Saren espouses synthesis exactly as it is shown.

:lol:
So......Synthesis forcibly uploads and conjoins minds while destroying the organic bodies? I think the "sacred nature" intuition has run away with your common sense.

. It's still changing them.  They'll be altered, but won't reap the benefits.  So it really sucks for them come to think of it.

Saren doesn't expect that kind of synthesis.  He doesn't know how the Reapers were created.  He expects everyone will become like him, mechanically altered and a tool for the machines, and that will save them.  And I don't buy into the "sacred" aspect of nature.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ieldra2 wrote...

They changes in biochemistry affects everyone, yes. But what can be done with them if there is no technology to integrate? Nothing! And exactly that will happen to civilizations not sufficiently advanced.

And the Reapers did realize his vision.  The Reapers are a form of synthesis in every sense.  They are a combination of "flesh and steel" and are "Free from all weakness". Like it or not Saren espouses synthesis exactly as it is shown.

:lol:
So......Synthesis forcibly uploads and conjoins minds while destroying the organic bodies? I think the "sacred nature" intuition has run away with your common sense.

The changes to the biochemistry alone is a pretty big thing to heap onto a person. And are you so sure that it doesn't effect those people? Can you tell me what the effects of the glowing green circuits are? Can you tell me what they do?

He's not saying Saren's vision was ever good to begin with. Especially since it really wasn't Sarens vision, just a perverted mutation of an idea that was twisted by Sovereign. 

It's Saren's voice, but it's the Reapers words being heard. I don't understand why you want to trust them so much.

[Obadiah]

Steelcan wrote...
...
It's still changing them.  They'll be altered, but won't reap the benefits.  So it really sucks for them come to think of it.
...

It means that when they develop new technology they'll be able to integrate it. So it doesn't really suck for them at all.

[ghost9191]

ppl can already find a way to integrate tech . and i doubt it will be a simple on/off switch. either it will affect them or it won't

personally i am a bit more interested to see how the affected galaxy reacts to the unaffected when they show up

[Steelcan]

Obadiah wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
...
It's still changing them.  They'll be altered, but won't reap the benefits.  So it really sucks for them come to think of it.
...

It means that when they develop new technology they'll be able to integrate it. So it doesn't really suck for them at all.

. It's still not a choice they had any part in.

[Ieldra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

They changes in biochemistry affects everyone, yes. But what can be done with them if there is no technology to integrate? Nothing! And exactly that will happen to civilizations not sufficiently advanced.

And the Reapers did realize his vision.  The Reapers are a form of synthesis in every sense.  They are a combination of "flesh and steel" and are "Free from all weakness". Like it or not Saren espouses synthesis exactly as it is shown.

:lol:
So......Synthesis forcibly uploads and conjoins minds while destroying the organic bodies? I think the "sacred nature" intuition has run away with your common sense.

The changes to the biochemistry alone is a pretty big thing to heap onto a person. And are you so sure that it doesn't effect those people? Can you tell me what the effects of the glowing green circuits are? Can you tell me what they do?

He's not saying Saren's vision was ever good to begin with. Especially since it really wasn't Sarens vision, just a perverted mutation of an idea that was twisted by Sovereign. 

It's Saren's voice, but it's the Reapers words being heard. I don't understand why you want to trust them so much.

If I may quote myself from the previous page:

To me it was always obvious that none of the endings were intended to be a collusion with the enemy, to the point that it took me by surprise to see that some people interpreted them that way. "You must act", "You changed the variables" and "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen" are rather obvious in that regard. The fact that the Catalyst is the one presenting the choices tends to mask this, and making the antagonist the narrator of the ending exposition was an epic storytelling blunder by Bioware in the last ten minutes of the trilogy, but it's still rather easy to see beyond it.

One underlying problem is the tendency of people to overgeneralize. "Synthesis is a kind of organic/synthetic hybridization, so it must be like the Reapers". That's just nonsense. I shouldn't have to point this out, really. As for what the details of Synthesis are: where the story doesn't tell, I interpret it in the best possible sense, since that is, obviously, how it was intended. All three main endings are good endings. It is so blatantly obvious that not even the abovementioned blunder can change it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 mars 2013 - 04:23 .

[Steelcan]

How you can argue that Synthesis is not collaboration? It is implementing the Catalyst's ideal solution.

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

How you can argue that Synthesis is not collaboration? It is implementing the Catalyst's ideal solution.

actually, it's organics' "ideal" solution, being intellectual an all... We actually like to think were independent thinkers in a universe,apparently, determined to alter our perspectives through evolution.

Think of the catalyst logic like a black hole, sucking everything in, even light.. That's what nature develops over the millennium. Only a by product of organics wishing to merely survive, them selves. The trap.

(evolution precludes independent thought?)

[CaptainCommander]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CaptainCommander
You may want to read the OP of this thread before you rehash this old argument. The changes themselves are not Saren's "union of flesh and steel". Watch the EC. They are changes in biochemistry which enable technology integration. Civilizations with technology not complex enough to be integrated will not be affected. One possible exception is the mental networking, but that's speculation anyway.

Also, Saren's vision was not necessarily wrong. Wrong, that was his belief the Reapers would realize it, and for that I called him out. I called him out on "isn't submission preferable to extinction", not about this vision of a future hybrid civilization as such.  

If it doesn't affect every planet the same way then it doesn't end the reason the StarChild exists. Because the cycles will continue with the lesser non-advanced races *rolls eyes*. So the cycle would need to continue! And its exactly Saren's vision its the combination of what the Reapers wanted! Plain and simply

[ghost9191]

eh spent bout 10mins on it but simply put doubt it is the ideal solution for organics.

just me. but if i wanted my reasons heard i would have kept the original post:bandit:

Modifié par ghost9191, 20 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[Taboo]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

How you can argue that Synthesis is not collaboration? It is implementing the Catalyst's ideal solution.

actually, it's organics' "ideal" solution, being intellectual an all... We actually like to think were independent thinkers in a universe,apparently, determined to alter our perspectives through evolution.

Think of the catalyst logic like a black hole, sucking everything in, even light.. That's what nature develops over the millennium. Only a by product of organics wishing to merely survive, them selves. The trap.

(evolution precludes independent thought?)

It would be an intellectual venture if it didn't require Vitalism to activate. Carl Sagan is rolling over in his grave as we speak.

It's an intriguing concept marred by mysticism in an otherwise concrete science fiction story.

To believe that one being, and one being alone is omnipotent is ridiculous. Even the Catalyst explains that his solution will no longer work.

[Obadiah]

Steelcan wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
...
It's still changing them.  They'll be altered, but won't reap the benefits.  So it really sucks for them come to think of it.
...

It means that when they develop new technology they'll be able to integrate it. So it doesn't really suck for them at all.

. It's still not a choice they had any part in.

And in and of itself that does not mean the choice is bad or wrong.

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...
It's an intriguing concept marred by mysticism in an otherwise concrete science fiction story.

Pretty much what I would say about Reapers in general.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 20 mars 2013 - 06:09 .

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

It isn't arrogant to assume some people don't like the ending's because they are not straightforward.  It is absolutly true, there were many people who just wanted a standard galactic victory type of ending, and sometimes when I explain my interpretations to people, there response is just 'why didn't they just show us that!'.

And I never claimed that not being straightforward wasn't one of the reasons people dislike the endings.  That can be a reason, but I'm saying it is far from being the only one.

Shaigunjoe wrote...

What is arrogant is thinking that people who prefer straight forward storytelling don't 'get it'.  Which is what you are doing, not me.  Not 'getting' art is not the same as not 'getting' calculus.  People approach art from different angles, a lot of which has to do with what paths they have taken in their own lives.  I don't think there is anything wrong with liking story telling like that (There is a reason why most of the people I know don't like reading Gene Wolfe, or believe Slaughterhouse 5 is science fiction), mearly that would be the only reason to not like the endings, because it is open enough to do whatever you like with it.  You are wrong, the puzzle pieces they left behind can easily be used to explain the reapers just about anyway you like, or the Catalyst, and each ending.  The problems you are listing have to do with taken what is given at face value.

You're not understanding what I'm saying again; I never said people who prefer straightforward storytelling don't get it. I'm saying people who defend the endings by playing the "open to interpretation" and "use your imagination" cards, by association, lay blame on those that criticize the endings for not being able to do so.  By claiming it is "open enough to do whatever you like" you effectively grant yourself carte blanche to dismiss any sort of criticism of the endings in favor of an interpretation that is convienent.  Some people may want a straightforward ending, yes, yet others might actually have bothered to interpret the endings, decided "hey, the interpretation I get from all this makes the entire story and the Reapers themselves ridiculous and idiotic" and they don't like it.

[Wayning_Star]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

How you can argue that Synthesis is not collaboration? It is implementing the Catalyst's ideal solution.

actually, it's organics' "ideal" solution, being intellectual an all... We actually like to think were independent thinkers in a universe,apparently, determined to alter our perspectives through evolution.

Think of the catalyst logic like a black hole, sucking everything in, even light.. That's what nature develops over the millennium. Only a by product of organics wishing to merely survive, them selves. The trap.

(evolution precludes independent thought?)

It would be an intellectual venture if it didn't require Vitalism to activate. Carl Sagan is rolling over in his grave as we speak.

It's an intriguing concept marred by mysticism in an otherwise concrete science fiction story.

To believe that one being, and one being alone is omnipotent is ridiculous. Even the Catalyst explains that his solution will no longer work.

Organics did actually create the intelligence. The Vitalist conundrum. Besides the catalyst is the intelligence of many harvested races through their storage within reapership hulls. So it is "us" and them, if you count synthetic life forms as harvestees worth their salt, as it were.