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[GreyLycanTrope]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There is the line "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities". This contradicts the "little more than a power source" line (which, btw, still implies that is *is* more than a power source) and hints that the Crucible may do more than provide power. The hypothesis that the Synthesis is an option enabled by the Crucible is compatible with the evidence and supported by various other lines in the story, except for this one. 

The "stream of self-replicating nanite clusters programmed with information taken from Shepard's mind" hypothesis was brought up by me to explain how the actual change of living organisms may work since we all don't believe in a "magical green transformation beam".

It's too vague to be a contradiction, "little more" can mean hundreds of things within this context. As in it's little more than a power source, it's giant flying power source. It's a line simply there for speculations because here's the thing, the options presented don't overlap properly. And the crucible changing him doesn't mean it gave him nanites just enough power to consider new solutions.

Each of the three options presented have a good side and bad side because the writers needed to balance the options to be more or less neutral with each other, the crucible is basically magical because of it's a tool that allows the writers to do just about anything they want within the confines of the story without a proper explination of how it works. They throw around just enough vague phrasing to let people try and justify their prefered option in  a rational manner but when you hold these explination up to scuriny they fall apart. For example let's say synthesis uses nanites to alter not only various different lifeforms but also various individuals within those life from, and it manages to do so safly without any ill physical reactions on part of those effected. So we have these nanite cabable of literally rewriting genetic code on a minute scale, but the Destroy option still works in a very broad EMP like manner were it destroys any form of synthetics lifeform. On one hand we seem to have a very precise scalpel on the other a sledge hammer.

The writer were vauge for a reason, they wouldn't be able to tell you how it works because it can literally do anything the plot demands it to, there's no science behind it, just enough vague wording to let people speculate and headcanon some sort of justification for how it works. So when people say "Dude it's nanites" we're not really talking established facts, the way we have synthesis enacted is literally unprecedented within the context of the story, all you are bring up are hypotheses.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 21 mars 2013 - 12:41 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Whatever is in there is dead. A dead Reaper is a pile of dead goo. Bioware has made that pretty clear.

You literally perform magic to enact Synthesis. How offensive is that?

It's not magic. It's nanite transfusion through a wave of dark energy.

It has nothhing to do with nanites. Shepard adds his energy to the Crucible, The human body has the power of a few batteries. If your case is true, Synthesis could be activated with Energizer batteries thrown into the beam.

It isn't science. It's bollocks.

C'mon, guys. This is Einstein all day long.

E = mc^2.

"Shepard's energy" (E) = broken-down mass (m) * a catalyst for conversion ©. The Crucible's beam is ©.


It's the same deal as everyone claiming that the Crucible is "just a battery." Nowhere is that stated, people just remember the catalyst saying "little more than a power-source" and leaping to that conclusion. He also said it's "adaptive in its design" - implying it can take other functions. Likewise, "your energy" =/= "your soul."

[GreyLycanTrope]

At no point are the Reapers shown to be capable of having such technology which converts matter to energy or vice versa. All adaptive in it's design means is that it can give you different options in how to disperse the energy control, synthesis, destroy. It doesn't mean the damn thing creates nanites on the spot simply that it be calibrated to a different output.

[Xilizhra]

It has nothhing to do with nanites. Shepard adds his energy to the Crucible, The human body has the power of a few batteries. If your case is true, Synthesis could be activated with Energizer batteries thrown into the beam.

Actually, the total amount of potential energy within a human body could outmatch several hydrogen bombs, if it was all liberated at once.

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

[essarr71]

If something is capable of rewritting every organic lifeform in an entire galaxy - its a lot more than a battery.

Sorry. I dont buy it.

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

C'mon, guys. This is Einstein all day long.

E = mc^2.

"Shepard's energy" (E) = broken-down mass (m) * a catalyst for conversion ©. The Crucible's beam is ©.


It's the same deal as everyone claiming that the Crucible is "just a battery." Nowhere is that stated, people just remember the catalyst saying "little more than a power-source" and leaping to that conclusion. He also said it's "adaptive in its design" - implying it can take other functions. Likewise, "your energy" =/= "your soul."

Yeah and I'm Caral Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson. I make science accesible while maintaining a level of civility about it. Lolololol.

But in all seriousness. That equation has nothing to do with what Synthesis is enacting as no forumula exists for magic.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mars 2013 - 05:55 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

It has nothhing to do with nanites. Shepard adds his energy to the Crucible, The human body has the power of a few batteries. If your case is true, Synthesis could be activated with Energizer batteries thrown into the beam.

Actually, the total amount of potential energy within a human body could outmatch several hydrogen bombs, if it was all liberated at once.

The energy is irrelevant. The only way how Shepard gets to influence the Synthesis is as information. Shepard influences the shape the Synthesis will take, the programming of the Synthesis agents which actually make the change. The energy, that comes from the Crucible and the Citadel.

Just forget about "organic energy". It's nonsense, and we all know that. Don't try to make literal sense of it. The defining aspect is information.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 mars 2013 - 05:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It has nothhing to do with nanites. Shepard adds his energy to the Crucible, The human body has the power of a few batteries. If your case is true, Synthesis could be activated with Energizer batteries thrown into the beam.

Actually, the total amount of potential energy within a human body could outmatch several hydrogen bombs, if it was all liberated at once.

The energy is irrelevant. The only way how Shepard gets to influence the Synthesis is as information. Shepard influences the shape the Synthesis will take, the programming of the Synthesis agents which actually make the change. The energy, that comes from the Crucible and the Citadel.

Just forget about "organic energy". It's nonsense, and we all know that. Don't try to make literal sense of it. The defining aspect is information.

So what about Shepard makes Shepard's entire body necessary to use said information?

[essarr71]

You'd think the Catalyst would say "information" then.

Not saying your idea doesnt fit better, mind, just pointing out youre trying to clean up someone else's mess.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

It has nothhing to do with nanites. Shepard adds his energy to the Crucible, The human body has the power of a few batteries. If your case is true, Synthesis could be activated with Energizer batteries thrown into the beam.

Actually, the total amount of potential energy within a human body could outmatch several hydrogen bombs, if it was all liberated at once.

. If I split every atom in a leaf I'd release massive amounts of energy at once as well,

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Just forget about "organic energy". It's nonsense, and we all know that. Don't try to make literal sense of it. The defining aspect is information.

. You can keep saying that all you want, but that doesn't change what Synthesis is.  

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

And Grey has pointed out that the Catalyst's words are so vague that "changed" could mean anything; the only thing that is certain is that the three options it presents are somehow made possible with the Crucible.  Again, the Catalyst openly states it has tried to implement a proto-Synthesis solution before but was held back by limitations and goes on to tell Shepard that Synthesis is possible in part because the present cycle is now "ready" for it.  If Synthesis was actually an intended function of the Crucible it would make more sense for the Catalyst to say the Crucible is complete enough so that they are able to achieve Synthesis.  As it is, there is no solid indication of anyone wanting Synthesis before the possiblity is brought up beyond the Catalyst itself. 

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Just forget about "organic energy". It's nonsense, and we all know that. Don't try to make literal sense of it. The defining aspect is information.

. You can keep saying that all you want, but that doesn't change what Synthesis is.  

And you can keep saying that I should accept nonsense just because its written down, it doesn't change what Synthesis can't be. Use some logic, damn it! Or tell me what "organic energy" is in lore-compatible terms. If you can't, shut up!

@Xilizhra:
It's the same as in the harvesting. "Destructive analysis". It would probably be enough just to use Shepard's brain, but that wouldn't make them any less gone.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 mars 2013 - 07:18 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

At no point are the Reapers shown to be capable of having such technology which converts matter to energy or vice versa.

"Even the Reapers don't have that kind of technology" - ? ... where have I heard that one before? 

That's like saying Priority: Tuchanka was wrong because the Reapers were never shown to be capable of having poison. Or Priority: Rannoch is wrong because the Reapers are never shown to have an upgrade code to take control of geth. Cripes, the Reapers brought the rachni back from the damn grave, lol.

The Reapers can be reasonably capable of having any advanced technology the writers pull out of their ass. They're Reapers. Only an ending-related topic such as this gets any scrutiny about it.

All adaptive in it's design means is that it can give you different options in how to disperse the energy control, synthesis, destroy. It doesn't mean the damn thing creates nanites on the spot simply that it be calibrated to a different output.

Unless, of course, the nanites already existed. The Citadel is a viable origin, seeing as it's capable of a type of synthesis. Maybe not the best one, but it would be far from the first time in this story that we saw something of "unclean" origins being turned around and used for a good cause.

Taboo-XX wrote...

But in all seriousness. That equation has nothing to do with what Synthesis is enacting as no forumula exists for magic.

See, that line of thinking is more a problem than anything else. What you basically say is, "That explanation isn't right. It's ___... and it makes no sense!" If an explanation doesn't make sense, you don't hold on to it, you discard it and look for new explanations.

I can accept someone dismissing my interpretation... so long as they have a better one!

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 21 mars 2013 - 07:19 .

[Ieldra]

essarr71 wrote...
You'd think the Catalyst would say "information" then.

Not saying your idea doesnt fit better, mind, just pointing out youre trying to clean up someone else's mess.

Indeed I do, and I'm aware of it. I certainly have no respect at all left for whoever wrote this nonsense. I'm just trying to make some sense of things in order to get a story I like.

It's the same with EDI's Reaper "explanation" at the SM. There was a perfectly fine explanation recorded, but they replaced it with nonsense. I can still deduce the cut explanation from other sources, but this is one of the few things I'll never forgive the writers - replacing rationalization in terms of fictional science with pseudo-magical nonsense.

[Wayning_Star]

forcing an issue is the military way, has been for some time, and probably will be.

Ieldra2, I cannot seem to correlate the/your banner with out rationalizing at least some mystical fictional pseudo-magical technological misinterpretation. (i.e. godhead)

How can merging of/with intellect be ascension, when the intellects are equal, but only their mechanics are different? Just say'n

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

And Grey has pointed out that the Catalyst's words are so vague that "changed" could mean anything; the only thing that is certain is that the three options it presents are somehow made possible with the Crucible.  Again, the Catalyst openly states it has tried to implement a proto-Synthesis solution before but was held back by limitations and goes on to tell Shepard that Synthesis is possible in part because the present cycle is now "ready" for it.  If Synthesis was actually an intended function of the Crucible it would make more sense for the Catalyst to say the Crucible is complete enough so that they are able to achieve Synthesis.  As it is, there is no solid indication of anyone wanting Synthesis before the possiblity is brought up beyond the Catalyst itself. 

Change means that the catalyst you are talking to now is different than the catalyst before the crucible being attached. New possibilities means that these possibilities were not known prior to the cruicible being attached.   Yes, the catalyst tried some synthesis before, there is no evidence to suggest synthesis as inacted by the cruicible is a product designed and implemented by the catalyst.

[essarr71]

Wayning_Star wrote...

forcing an issue is the military way, has been for some time, and probably will be.

Ieldra2, I cannot seem to correlate the/your banner with out rationalizing at least some mystical fictional pseudo-magical technological misinterpretation. (i.e. godhead)

How can merging of/with intellect be ascension, when the intellects are equal, but only their mechanics are different? Just say'n

It's a point often overlooked.  While this cycle might not be an anomoly, we know we're a good few thousand years behind schedule.  While past cycles might offer different cultural insights (if goop does retain it's old culture), technologically and socially every cycle should be pretty much equal.. especially given that the Reapers have essentially laid out the governmental/technological blueprints for them.

A lot of voices all talking about "Hey, did you guys know the citadel was a trap?  Nah, we didn't either."

[Bill Casey]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Or tell me what "organic energy" is in lore-compatible terms. If you can't, shut up!

It's the Reaper leader feeding you doublespeak to make you jump into a laser beam to complete his agenda...
You're the one who is advocating synthesis here...

If you can't tell us what organic energy is in lore-compatible terms, you're the one who should shut up...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 mars 2013 - 08:04 .

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

And Grey has pointed out that the Catalyst's words are so vague that "changed" could mean anything; the only thing that is certain is that the three options it presents are somehow made possible with the Crucible.  Again, the Catalyst openly states it has tried to implement a proto-Synthesis solution before but was held back by limitations and goes on to tell Shepard that Synthesis is possible in part because the present cycle is now "ready" for it.  If Synthesis was actually an intended function of the Crucible it would make more sense for the Catalyst to say the Crucible is complete enough so that they are able to achieve Synthesis.  As it is, there is no solid indication of anyone wanting Synthesis before the possiblity is brought up beyond the Catalyst itself. 

Change means that the catalyst you are talking to now is different than the catalyst before the crucible being attached. New possibilities means that these possibilities were not known prior to the cruicible being attached.   Yes, the catalyst tried some synthesis before, there is no evidence to suggest synthesis as inacted by the cruicible is a product designed and implemented by the catalyst.

Other then the fact that the principal purpose of Synthesis is to resolve the issue of the conflict between organics and synthetics, which also happens to be the very reason the Catalyst itself exists?

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

And Grey has pointed out that the Catalyst's words are so vague that "changed" could mean anything; the only thing that is certain is that the three options it presents are somehow made possible with the Crucible.  Again, the Catalyst openly states it has tried to implement a proto-Synthesis solution before but was held back by limitations and goes on to tell Shepard that Synthesis is possible in part because the present cycle is now "ready" for it.  If Synthesis was actually an intended function of the Crucible it would make more sense for the Catalyst to say the Crucible is complete enough so that they are able to achieve Synthesis.  As it is, there is no solid indication of anyone wanting Synthesis before the possiblity is brought up beyond the Catalyst itself. 

Change means that the catalyst you are talking to now is different than the catalyst before the crucible being attached. New possibilities means that these possibilities were not known prior to the cruicible being attached.   Yes, the catalyst tried some synthesis before, there is no evidence to suggest synthesis as inacted by the cruicible is a product designed and implemented by the catalyst.

Other then the fact that the principal purpose of Synthesis is to resolve the issue of the conflict between organics and synthetics, which also happens to be the very reason the Catalyst itself exists?

Thats not evidence.  If someone creates a machine to solve a problem, the machine attempts the problem and fails. So an attachment to that machine is designed and eventually built attached and now the problem is solved.  The only thing the original machine gets full credit for is failing to solve the problem the first time.

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
"Even the Reapers don't have that kind of technology" - ? ... where have I heard that one before? 

That's like saying Priority: Tuchanka was wrong because the Reapers were never shown to be capable of having poison. Or Priority: Rannoch is wrong because the Reapers are never shown to have an upgrade code to take control of geth. Cripes, the Reapers brought the rachni back from the damn grave, lol.

The Reapers can be reasonably capable of having any advanced technology the writers pull out of their ass. They're Reapers. Only an ending-related topic such as this gets any scrutiny about it.

Yes but we're not talking poison or cloning here (we've seen them play with cloning and gene placing and poison chemical/ biological warfare via the collectors already btw, so even the things you mentioned have precidence) If they have this tech I expect them to us it at some point through out the campign if they had something similar to this. It's very simple all they have to do is prove they're capable of this sort of level of technology (energy to nanite transformation) is at some point during the invasion have them fire beams of energy at people to turn them into husks. we aldeady know they use nanides stored in dragons teeth to enact this transformation, so if they have this tech they should be using it on the small scale already. They don't though, take that as a hint.

Unless, of course, the nanites already existed. The Citadel is a viable origin, seeing as it's capable of a type of synthesis. Maybe not the best one, but it would be far from the first time in this story that we saw something of "unclean" origins being turned around and used for a good cause.

We've had hundreds of people building the thing someone would have mentioned it if that was the case, or hell even an brief mention in the war assets, not there though.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Just forget about "organic energy". It's nonsense, and we all know that. Don't try to make literal sense of it. The defining aspect is information.

. You can keep saying that all you want, but that doesn't change what Synthesis is.  

And you can keep saying that I should accept nonsense just because its written down, it doesn't change what Synthesis can't be. Use some logic, damn it! Or tell me what "organic energy" is in lore-compatible terms. If you can't, shut up!

. There is no logic or lore compatible terms for synthesis.  It's just that bad.  I know it's your preferred ending, and I admit I'm rather partial to its idea.  But you can't separate the end result from the means to get there and the ridiculous explanation is as integral to Synthesis as the destruction of EDI is to Destroy.

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

And Grey has pointed out that the Catalyst's words are so vague that "changed" could mean anything; the only thing that is certain is that the three options it presents are somehow made possible with the Crucible.  Again, the Catalyst openly states it has tried to implement a proto-Synthesis solution before but was held back by limitations and goes on to tell Shepard that Synthesis is possible in part because the present cycle is now "ready" for it.  If Synthesis was actually an intended function of the Crucible it would make more sense for the Catalyst to say the Crucible is complete enough so that they are able to achieve Synthesis.  As it is, there is no solid indication of anyone wanting Synthesis before the possiblity is brought up beyond the Catalyst itself. 

Change means that the catalyst you are talking to now is different than the catalyst before the crucible being attached. New possibilities means that these possibilities were not known prior to the cruicible being attached.   Yes, the catalyst tried some synthesis before, there is no evidence to suggest synthesis as inacted by the cruicible is a product designed and implemented by the catalyst.

Other then the fact that the principal purpose of Synthesis is to resolve the issue of the conflict between organics and synthetics, which also happens to be the very reason the Catalyst itself exists?

Thats not evidence.  If someone creates a machine to solve a problem, the machine attempts the problem and fails. So an attachment to that machine is designed and eventually built attached and now the problem is solved.  The only thing the original machine gets full credit for is failing to solve the problem the first time.

And what evidence is there that the people who designed the Crucible even knew what the true goals of the Reapers were?  For that matter, if they did what specific reason would they have to help fulfill them?  The Catalyst's statement of Synthesis not being forced implies even if past cycles knew of its purpose, they had no interest in going along with it.