9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Other than it saying that it tried it before?

Right, that was thing they tried first right? Then he left it alone, because he didn't think it could be done, until somebody else figured out how.

The Catalyst explicitly states it tried a similar solution before but states that it wouldn't work because it couldn't "be forced" which suggests some, if not all that opposed or were harvested by the Catalyst in the past didn't want such a solution. It also explicitly states that the Crucible is simply a glorified power source.

The only thing stopping the Catalyst from implementing synthesis before is some nebulous idea of consent, sufficent power and apparently Shepard's "organic energy."

But thats where you are wrong, he doesn't explicitly state it is a glorified power source, he says it is little more than a power source, which as Ieldra pointed out means that is more than a power source.  It also couldn't be done until the crucible was attached and it 'changed' the catalyst.  Meaning it was the people who designed the crucibles solution.

And Grey has pointed out that the Catalyst's words are so vague that "changed" could mean anything; the only thing that is certain is that the three options it presents are somehow made possible with the Crucible.  Again, the Catalyst openly states it has tried to implement a proto-Synthesis solution before but was held back by limitations and goes on to tell Shepard that Synthesis is possible in part because the present cycle is now "ready" for it.  If Synthesis was actually an intended function of the Crucible it would make more sense for the Catalyst to say the Crucible is complete enough so that they are able to achieve Synthesis.  As it is, there is no solid indication of anyone wanting Synthesis before the possiblity is brought up beyond the Catalyst itself. 

Change means that the catalyst you are talking to now is different than the catalyst before the crucible being attached. New possibilities means that these possibilities were not known prior to the cruicible being attached.   Yes, the catalyst tried some synthesis before, there is no evidence to suggest synthesis as inacted by the cruicible is a product designed and implemented by the catalyst.

Other then the fact that the principal purpose of Synthesis is to resolve the issue of the conflict between organics and synthetics, which also happens to be the very reason the Catalyst itself exists?

Thats not evidence.  If someone creates a machine to solve a problem, the machine attempts the problem and fails. So an attachment to that machine is designed and eventually built attached and now the problem is solved.  The only thing the original machine gets full credit for is failing to solve the problem the first time.

And what evidence is there that the people who designed the Crucible even knew what the true goals of the Reapers were?  For that matter, if they did what specific reason would they have to help fulfill them?  The Catalyst's statement of Synthesis not being forced implies even if past cycles knew of its purpose, they had no interest in going along with it.

Why should it matter if the designers of the crucible knew what the true goals of the reapers were?  The obviously know something of it if they designed it to interface with the catalyst.

How could they have no interest in going along with it if they were never able to finish building it in the first place?

[Ieldra]

Bill Casey wrote...
If you can't tell us what organic energy is in lore-compatible terms, you're the one who should shut up...

I did. Repeatedly. I said it's information. "All that Shepard is" actually *is* information. The same kind of information that goes into the Reaper minds in the harvesting. Only in this case, it's used as a template rather than stored. Do people actually want me to accept the suggested vitalism? Well, I guess fanatics like you would rather prefer me digging a hole where I'll then sink my intellect, but sorry, I won't co-operate.

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Just forget about "organic energy". It's nonsense, and we all know that. Don't try to make literal sense of it. The defining aspect is information.

. You can keep saying that all you want, but that doesn't change what Synthesis is.  

And you can keep saying that I should accept nonsense just because its written down, it doesn't change what Synthesis can't be. Use some logic, damn it! Or tell me what "organic energy" is in lore-compatible terms. If you can't, shut up!

@Xilizhra:
It's the same as in the harvesting. "Destructive analysis". It would probably be enough just to use Shepard's brain, but that wouldn't make them any less gone.

I'd guess it's that imprint on timespace that all energy leaves a mark, if you like it or not. The energy expounded during these confrontational's is posted forever in the annals of history. Even though, as vague as they are, they're 'instilled' in the nature of being, no less than a flower growing on some hill side.

Just because some 'think' is metaphysical, doesn't automatically mean its just gone. Every memory we have is stored away, we cannot access them easily, but they're there.

I guess it could considered that any such thing as 'synthesis' in the game lore equivalent, would be the creation of the catalyst and it's harvest of the Leviathan. The Leviathan actually synthesis with the intelligence to find an answer to their problem with thralls. It happened the instant they created the intelligence. Ends up that was foreshadowed as the first attempt and was considered unsatisfactory, as the Leviathan wasn't all that positive about it, none the less, they admit the catalyst as performing it's programmed objective, as in finding the solution to chaos.

It will, apparently take Shepard's "ideals" to complete the process of synthesis in the MEU, the nature of purpose inflicts this upon Shepard, as the ONLY avatar to date, to meet with the catalyst one on one( or closest to that, as its all in his/her and the catalysts' head anyways, he/she is NEVER up there with the catalyst, just "essence" of what Shepard represents, as posed by the cut scenes. Each example given by the catalyst there is produced through Shepard's motivation during the interaction with the Leviathan super computer. The crucible can only be an overdrive unit, to turn up the capacity of the catalyst to think/compute above its rated ability/mechanical limitation, that's why it's so destructive during the resolution of each choice. The catalyst rational is altered only by the presence of Shepard and the unconscious mental aptitude he/she can provide, in comparison to the catalyst. It's also the only way for the choices to become any reality, as Shepard 'wills' it so, the catalyst gave Shepard the keys to it's power base and says: It's all up to you. My solution won't work any more. Got any new ideas?)

The drawback to all this is that you must trust the catalyst as it provides the choices AS choices. If not, you may as well refuse and walk away. Hence that choice..

theres more but the text wall is kind of boring really.

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Why should it matter if the designers of the crucible knew what the true goals of the reapers were?  The obviously know something of it if they designed it to interface with the catalyst.

How could they have no interest in going along with it if they were never able to finish building it in the first place?

Because if they don't know what the Catalyst's goals are, then there is no apparent reason for them to want Synthesis at all as a response to the Reaper threat beyond pure speculation. The Crucible is meant to interface with the Citadel and through it, disperse energy using the mass relay network; there is no indication anyone who has worked on it knew the Catalyst itself was a sentient AI and indeed, Shepard is the first person to have even reached the location in the Citadel where s/he talks to it.

The Crucible already serves two other functions that address the Reaper threat directly; not only that but at least one of them will always be available while Synthesis might not be an option at all. Destroy and control are far more likely intended purposes that the Crucible was designed for if those that created it did not know what the Catalyst's goals are and/or did not want to accept its previous attempts at a synthesis solution. 

Edit: Quotes removed

Modifié par Absaroka, 21 mars 2013 - 09:43 .

[Wayning_Star]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Why should it matter if the designers of the crucible knew what the true goals of the reapers were?  The obviously know something of it if they designed it to interface with the catalyst.

How could they have no interest in going along with it if they were never able to finish building it in the first place?

Because if they don't know what the Catalyst's goals are, then there is no apparent reason for them to want Synthesis at all as a response to the Reaper threat beyond pure speculation. The Crucible is meant to interface with the Citadel and through it, disperse energy using the mass relay network; there is no indication anyone who has worked on it knew the Catalyst itself was a sentient AI and indeed, Shepard is the first person to have even reached the location in the Citadel where s/he talks to it.

The Crucible already serves two other functions that address the Reaper threat directly; not only that but at least one of them will always be available while Synthesis might not be an option at all. Destroy and control are far more likely intended purposes that the Crucible was designed for if those that created it did not know what the Catalyst's goals are and/or did not want to accept its previous attempts at a synthesis solution. 

Edit: Quotes removed

on that note I found it strange and lore dependent, naturally, that parts of the crucible were needed to 'improve' it somehow. Never explained why of course. We have to assume that the crucible is self contained in of it's power factor as in a tool of sorts used as an apparent weapon, but then in the end, it's not a weapon at all, even if uses for destroy purposes.

The most confusing part of lore is the statements of chaos and how that is the nidus of the intelligence creation. This following the concession that chaos cannot be dealt with destroy, as that IS chaos.

I wonder how destroy folks can over look that important lore statement?

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Why should it matter if the designers of the crucible knew what the true goals of the reapers were?  The obviously know something of it if they designed it to interface with the catalyst.

How could they have no interest in going along with it if they were never able to finish building it in the first place?

Because if they don't know what the Catalyst's goals are, then there is no apparent reason for them to want Synthesis at all as a response to the Reaper threat beyond pure speculation. The Crucible is meant to interface with the Citadel and through it, disperse energy using the mass relay network; there is no indication anyone who has worked on it knew the Catalyst itself was a sentient AI and indeed, Shepard is the first person to have even reached the location in the Citadel where s/he talks to it.

The Crucible already serves two other functions that address the Reaper threat directly; not only that but at least one of them will always be available while Synthesis might not be an option at all. Destroy and control are far more likely intended purposes that the Crucible was designed for if those that created it did not know what the Catalyst's goals are and/or did not want to accept its previous attempts at a synthesis solution. 

Edit: Quotes removed

Whoever designed the Crucible was very explicit in needing the Catalyst, which turned out to be a sentinent AI, so  yes, they were aware, if it was just the Citiadel, they would have just said the citadel.  So they new the catalyst, and they new the purpose of the reapers.

Even if they didn't why would it be unreasonable not to want synthesis as a respone to the reapers?   Shepared had already been rebuilt with synthesized parts, the geth needed to upload the reaper code to come to a peaceful conclusion with the quarians, and that was all during the current cycle, why would it be unreasonable that a previous cycle would synthesis as a viable solution?

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Why should it matter if the designers of the crucible knew what the true goals of the reapers were? The obviously know something of it if they designed it to interface with the catalyst.

How could they have no interest in going along with it if they were never able to finish building it in the first place?

Because if they don't know what the Catalyst's goals are, then there is no apparent reason for them to want Synthesis at all as a response to the Reaper threat beyond pure speculation. The Crucible is meant to interface with the Citadel and through it, disperse energy using the mass relay network; there is no indication anyone who has worked on it knew the Catalyst itself was a sentient AI and indeed, Shepard is the first person to have even reached the location in the Citadel where s/he talks to it.

The Crucible already serves two other functions that address the Reaper threat directly; not only that but at least one of them will always be available while Synthesis might not be an option at all. Destroy and control are far more likely intended purposes that the Crucible was designed for if those that created it did not know what the Catalyst's goals are and/or did not want to accept its previous attempts at a synthesis solution.

Edit: Quotes removed

Whoever designed the Crucible was very explicit in needing the Catalyst, which turned out to be a sentinent AI, so yes, they were aware, if it was just the Citiadel, they would have just said the citadel. So they new the catalyst, and they new the purpose of the reapers.

Even if they didn't why would it be unreasonable not to want synthesis as a respone to the reapers? Shepared had already been rebuilt with synthesized parts, the geth needed to upload the reaper code to come to a peaceful conclusion with the quarians, and that was all during the current cycle, why would it be unreasonable that a previous cycle would synthesis as a viable solution?

Except the designers aren't explicit of what the Catalyst is at all beyond needing the Crucible to interface with the Citadel. Vendetta is the closest thing in the game that represents any of the Crucible's designers from past cycles at all.  It knows that the Crucible needs to interface with the Citadel and it even knows of the existence of a force that controls the Reapers; yet none of Vendetta's dialogue indicates it is even aware that the the AI housed in the Citadel and the master of the Reapers are one in the same.  Not only that, but Vendetta's conclusions on what the motives of the Reaper's master are is completely incorrect.

What was done to Shepard and the Geth are utterly incidental. Shepard was not made a cyborg specifically to fight the reapers (s/he already would be), nor for the purpose of resolving the conflict between organics and synthetics. Shepard was made a cyborg specifically because that was what was required for having a functioning body that was all but destroyed. And the Geth using the Reaper Code has nothing to do with peace with the Quarians, Legion used the code so the Geth can achive "true intelligence" and individuality. Peace is possible purely because of the efforts of Shepard and similarly sane authority figures being able to get the Quarians to stop fighting. However, the Geth are all too willing to destroy the Quarians if they don't, and will do so right after the Code is uploaded. These examples in themselves are not viable solutions to the Reaper threat and for that matter they are only loosely related to what Synthesis actually does to people; they are simply the means to wielding slightly stronger forces against the Reapers which are merely delaying actions in the face of overwhelming numbers and power.

Wayning_Star wrote...

on that note I found it strange and lore dependent, naturally, that parts of the crucible were needed to 'improve' it somehow. Never explained why of course. We have to assume that the crucible is self contained in of it's power factor as in a tool of sorts used as an apparent weapon, but then in the end, it's not a weapon at all, even if uses for destroy purposes.

The most confusing part of lore is the statements of chaos and how that is the nidus of the intelligence creation. This following the concession that chaos cannot be dealt with destroy, as that IS chaos.

I wonder how destroy folks can over look that important lore statement?

Chaos is not truly dealt with in any of the endings beyond completely drastic measures. 

Destroy allows for conflicts to occur and leaves the burden and responsibility of waging war and earning peace to those that choose to do so.  Control can only prevent chaos insomuch as how far the new AI controlling the Reapers is willing and able to clamp down on those that may create conflict.  Synthesis only prevents conflict between organics and synthetics by the technicality of removing the destinction but leaves room for any other forms of conflict to arise.

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Why should it matter if the designers of the crucible knew what the true goals of the reapers were? The obviously know something of it if they designed it to interface with the catalyst.

How could they have no interest in going along with it if they were never able to finish building it in the first place?

Because if they don't know what the Catalyst's goals are, then there is no apparent reason for them to want Synthesis at all as a response to the Reaper threat beyond pure speculation. The Crucible is meant to interface with the Citadel and through it, disperse energy using the mass relay network; there is no indication anyone who has worked on it knew the Catalyst itself was a sentient AI and indeed, Shepard is the first person to have even reached the location in the Citadel where s/he talks to it.

The Crucible already serves two other functions that address the Reaper threat directly; not only that but at least one of them will always be available while Synthesis might not be an option at all. Destroy and control are far more likely intended purposes that the Crucible was designed for if those that created it did not know what the Catalyst's goals are and/or did not want to accept its previous attempts at a synthesis solution.

Edit: Quotes removed

Whoever designed the Crucible was very explicit in needing the Catalyst, which turned out to be a sentinent AI, so yes, they were aware, if it was just the Citiadel, they would have just said the citadel. So they new the catalyst, and they new the purpose of the reapers.

Even if they didn't why would it be unreasonable not to want synthesis as a respone to the reapers? Shepared had already been rebuilt with synthesized parts, the geth needed to upload the reaper code to come to a peaceful conclusion with the quarians, and that was all during the current cycle, why would it be unreasonable that a previous cycle would synthesis as a viable solution?

Except the designers aren't explicit of what the Catalyst is at all beyond needing the Crucible to interface with the Citadel. Vendetta is the closest thing in the game that represents any of the Crucible's designers from past cycles at all.  It knows that the Crucible needs to interface with the Citadel and it even knows of the existence of a force that controls the Reapers; yet none of Vendetta's dialogue indicates it is even aware that the the AI housed in the Citadel and the master of the Reapers are one in the same.  Not only that, but Vendetta's conclusions on what the motives of the Reaper's master are is completely incorrect.

What was done to Shepard and the Geth are utterly incidental. Shepard was not made a cyborg specifically to fight the reapers (s/he already would be), nor for the purpose of resolving the conflict between organics and synthetics. Shepard was made a cyborg specifically because that was what was required for having a functioning body that was all but destroyed. And the Geth using the Reaper Code has nothing to do with peace with the Quarians, Legion used the code so the Geth can achive "true intelligence" and individuality. Peace is possible purely because of the efforts of Shepard and similarly sane authority figures being able to get the Quarians to stop fighting. However, the Geth are all too willing to destroy the Quarians if they don't, and will do so right after the Code is uploaded. These examples in themselves are not viable solutions to the Reaper threat and for that matter they are only loosely related to what Synthesis actually does to people; they are simply the means to wielding slightly stronger forces against the Reapers which are merely delaying actions in the face of overwhelming numbers and power.

Wayning_Star wrote...

on that note I found it strange and lore dependent, naturally, that parts of the crucible were needed to 'improve' it somehow. Never explained why of course. We have to assume that the crucible is self contained in of it's power factor as in a tool of sorts used as an apparent weapon, but then in the end, it's not a weapon at all, even if uses for destroy purposes.

The most confusing part of lore is the statements of chaos and how that is the nidus of the intelligence creation. This following the concession that chaos cannot be dealt with destroy, as that IS chaos.

I wonder how destroy folks can over look that important lore statement?

Chaos is not truly dealt with in any of the endings beyond completely drastic measures. 

Destroy allows for conflicts to occur and leaves the burden and responsibility of waging war and earning peace to those that choose to do so.  Control can only prevent chaos insomuch as how far the new AI controlling the Reapers is willing and able to clamp down on those that may create conflict.  Synthesis only prevents conflict between organics and synthetics by the technicality of removing the destinction but leaves room for any other forms of conflict to arise.

Honestly, I feel like you are grasping at straws,  Vendetta was a prothean VI, and because the conclusions were incorrect about what the reapers were was just forshadowing for it being incorrect on what it thought the catalyst was as well.  For all we know the original designers had it right, the protheans had it wrong.

You say that shep would have fought the reapers anyway, but we don't know that, the story showed us that s/he needed to be synthesized to resolve the conflict.  If you are aware of another path in the game where Shep doesn't die or is resurected without machine parts, let me konw. Same thing with the geth/quarian conflict, geth needed to synthesize in order to achieve peacful victory.  Nothing you have said has provided sufficient evidence that the designers of the crucible (who were much smarter than the current cycle people) would not think that synthesis would be a viable option when members of the current cycle saw the merits of synthesis.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 22 mars 2013 - 03:53 .

[Auld Wulf]

Ieldra2 is right about the definition of organic energy. That anyone else doesn't get it is... I'm sorry... kind of hilarious? Don't take that the wrong way, but look at the brain, it's a whole lot of organic energy.

I'm just mildly amused that no one caught onto the notion of there being relevant organic energy within Shepard that could indeed be interpreted as data.

[Bill Casey]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
If you can't tell us what organic energy is in lore-compatible terms, you're the one who should shut up...

I did. Repeatedly. I said it's information. "All that Shepard is" actually *is* information. The same kind of information that goes into the Reaper minds in the harvesting. Only in this case, it's used as a template rather than stored. Do people actually want me to accept the suggested vitalism? Well, I guess fanatics like you would rather prefer me digging a hole where I'll then sink my intellect, but sorry, I won't co-operate.

No, you said "organic energy" was nonsense...
The Reaper King is speaking nonsense and you are siding with it...

[Obadiah]

Bill Casey wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
If you can't tell us what organic energy is in lore-compatible terms, you're the one who should shut up...

I did. Repeatedly. I said it's information. "All that Shepard is" actually *is* information. The same kind of information that goes into the Reaper minds in the harvesting. Only in this case, it's used as a template rather than stored. Do people actually want me to accept the suggested vitalism? Well, I guess fanatics like you would rather prefer me digging a hole where I'll then sink my intellect, but sorry, I won't co-operate.

No, you said "organic energy" was nonsense...
The Reaper King is speaking nonsense and you are siding with it...

No, he was accepting the shortcomings of the story-tellers, and you are trolling.

[Absaroka]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Honestly, I feel like you are grasping at straws,  Vendetta was a prothean VI, and because the conclusions were incorrect about what the reapers were was just forshadowing for it being incorrect on what it thought the catalyst was as well.  For all we know the original designers had it right, the protheans had it wrong.

You say that shep would have fought the reapers anyway, but we don't know that, the story showed us that s/he needed to be synthesized to resolve the conflict.  If you are aware of another path in the game where Shep doesn't die or is resurected without machine parts, let me konw. Same thing with the geth/quarian conflict, geth needed to synthesize in order to achieve peacful victory.  Nothing you have said has provided sufficient evidence that the designers of the crucible (who were much smarter than the current cycle people) would not think that synthesis would be a viable option when members of the current cycle saw the merits of synthesis.

Why am I the one grasping at straws when you're the one that brings up things that are unverifiable or tangential in regards to the Crucible and the Catalyst specifically?

What do we know about the original designers? Absolutely nothing; we don't know how smart they were, if they knew about the Catalyst AI or its goals, or even if their original design was adapted for use with the Citadel at all.  As such, there is nothing that suggests they saw synthesis as a viable means of addressing the Reaper threat before they were wiped out.

And Shepard was willing to fight the Reapers without synthetic parts, it was an unavoidable part of his/her characterization in ME1; Shepard dying in ME2 may be unavoidable but saying s/he wouldn't fight the Reapers if s/he lived and didn't need to be rebuilt is being disingenuous.  Destroy and control are also both solutions that resolve the conflict that have nothing to do with Shepard's implants.  And Geth were always open to peace even before being upgraded, Legion says as much in ME2 and 3 the choice for peace is left entirely in Quarian hands and whether or not they continue fighting.  It is the very argument that Shepard uses that results in a peaceful outcome.  Again, all of this is still tangential and irrelevant in proving that the Crucible's original function was Synthesis.

[Steelcan]

Obadiah wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
If you can't tell us what organic energy is in lore-compatible terms, you're the one who should shut up...

I did. Repeatedly. I said it's information. "All that Shepard is" actually *is* information. The same kind of information that goes into the Reaper minds in the harvesting. Only in this case, it's used as a template rather than stored. Do people actually want me to accept the suggested vitalism? Well, I guess fanatics like you would rather prefer me digging a hole where I'll then sink my intellect, but sorry, I won't co-operate.

No, you said "organic energy" was nonsense...
The Reaper King is speaking nonsense and you are siding with it...

No, he was accepting the shortcomings of the story-tellers, and you are trolling.

. Vehemently disagreeing =\\= trolling.  And those words had to have been chosen very carefully.  The writers wanted synthesis to be expressed like this, vitalism included.  It isn't the first or even second time vitalism has come up in ME, so I don't see why it's suchlike huge disconnect. Vitalism is an integral part to synthesis.  

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
If you can't tell us what organic energy is in lore-compatible terms, you're the one who should shut up...

I did. Repeatedly. I said it's information. "All that Shepard is" actually *is* information. The same kind of information that goes into the Reaper minds in the harvesting. Only in this case, it's used as a template rather than stored. Do people actually want me to accept the suggested vitalism? Well, I guess fanatics like you would rather prefer me digging a hole where I'll then sink my intellect, but sorry, I won't co-operate.

No, you said "organic energy" was nonsense...
The Reaper King is speaking nonsense and you are siding with it...

No, he was accepting the shortcomings of the story-tellers, and you are trolling.

. Vehemently disagreeing == trolling.  And those words had to have been chosen very carefully.  The writers wanted synthesis to be expressed like this, vitalism included.  It isn't the first or even second time vitalism has come up in ME, so I don't see why it's suchlike huge disconnect. Vitalism is an integral part to synthesis.  

nah, just a simplistic albeit cosmic version of nature taking a course, via Shepard. (who gets to actually "control" via alteration, of Nature it's self.)

[Ieldra]

Steelcan, you have no idea how wide-ranging accepting that would be. It would mean that vitalism is an integral part of the definition of life in the ME Universe. It wouldn't just affect Synthesis, it would completely change how we understand life in this fictional universe, retroactively, and it would mean accepting an understanding fundamentally incompatible with present-day science. You would have to accept it as well, regardless of your preferred ending choice.

I do not think the phrasing was carefully chosen. I think it was carelessly chosen, motivated by the sole objective of obfuscation and avoiding clarity, of artificiually infusing incomprehensibility into the nature of things, regardless of the cost to worldbuilding.

Evidence? The cut dialogue from the SM. From "destructive analysis" to "essence of a species". From clarity to obfuscation, from science to mysticism.

The bottom line: I'm a worldbuilder at heart, I find it offensive how the writers damage the integrity of their universe with this nonsense. I am not willing to let it be destroyed by a single phrase used for the sole purpose of obfuscation, and I find the insistence of people that I should accept this nonsense personally insulting, motivated as it is by the sole purpose of devaluing my ending choice.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Wayning_Star]

but bioware should probably at least hint as to what the actual canon ending is..they won't of course, not now because of the ego boosted endings snafu with fan's and lore based excusification.

It's a battle of wills on a game story long ended.. non-canon.

[Mobius-Silent]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Steelcan, you have no idea how wide-ranging accepting that would be. It would mean that vitalism is an integral part of the definition of life in the ME Universe.

Whoa whoa, there is plenty of room between vitalism-as-a-falisfied-medical-doctrine and Reapers-are-digital-information-only these are just opposite ends of a possible spectrum.

• We _know_ that Javik can read things from organic residue thet IRL we believe is impossible, that is established in the MEU.
• We _know_ that most of the AI in the MEU (_Possibly_ excepting the Geth), require hardware that fundimentally alters/acts-as-the-basis-of their "personality" (The Quantum bluebox)
• We _know_ that the Reapers "reading" process is destructive
• We have no reason to doubt the visuals that show us that the Cricuible's "Control" and "Synthesis" "reading" mechanisms are destructive
• Dialogue suggests that there is a notable difference between what happens to Shepard in Synthesis and Destroy.

There is _nothing_ unscientific in positing that small changes in quantum state in the _body_ could have a cascade effect that has a notable impact in any given decision-making process in the brain. Likewise there is nothing unscientific in saying that is is possible that specific commands from the brain may make subtle and lasting quantum-state changes in the body. There is nothing wrong with accepting that quantum-state seems to be one of those things that the MEU feels can only be "transferred" not duplicated (Reads are destructive).

Putting this together does not equal vitalism. It simply posits that sentience may cause quantum-feedback between its whole host organism and that to _accurately_ transcribe an organic-based consciousness, You may need to destroy the whole body. Somehow transferring the whole quantum state to a waveform/photon cluster, the energy that has passed through the previous organic host for this data may well be described as "Organic energy" as shorthand for "Electromagnitic waveform who's photons contain quantum-state information once present in an organic matrix"

In a similar way _before_ The Catalyst knew about the technical possiblity of the hardware present in the Crucible It attempted to retain this state information by transcribing the part of the organic matrix it recognised (The sapient emotionless intellegence) and simply retained the remaining unique organic material in a bio-organic matrix as quantum-state reference.

This does not imply that "The body holds the soul" or other such vagaries simply that the relationship between the body and the more complex parts of sentience (feelings, emotions) is of of uncopyable (but transferable) quantum state with feedback across the entire system. I have no problem letting that be a part of the MEU

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 22 mars 2013 - 02:38 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Absaroka wrote...
Synthesis only prevents conflict between organics and synthetics by the technicality of removing the destinction but leaves room for any other forms of conflict to arise.

I'd just like to address this specifically as this is not the only explaination and I believe it is an incorrect one.

From my reading of the dialogue synthesis prevents the _inevitable_ conflict by doing two things

• 1. By providing Organics with a fundimental synthetic matrix that does not strip away their sentience (their "feelings" thus reducing them to sapience, that is, thinking and resoning without feeling) they can persue the "mortality problem" that is their fundimental drive _without_ creating immortal synthetics that they then envy.
• 2. By providing Synthetics with an inherrent emotive matrix for them to expand their sapience into sentience, that are able to implicitly and empathically relate to post-organics and thus "understand" all their implicit values, avoiding the programming-interpreted-too-literally-resulting-in-extinction-events.

Thus the inevitable conflict of mortal-organics-envious-of-synthetic-immortality vs emotionless-synthetics-unable-to-see-past-organic-failings-to-the-real-value-of-sentience is avoided but not _all_ conflict is avoided

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 22 mars 2013 - 02:37 .

[Obadiah]

I don't think the notion of vitalism is really that bad.

I like the idea that in Synthesis Shepard's "soul" has somehow been suffused throughout the galaxy by this explosion by some heretofore unknown technological (Crucible dark energy) and natural ("chain reaction") process - that Shepard is now a part of everything, and his spirit somehow brings everyone closer together.

For in-world logic, I'd pick up the self-replicating nanide theory. I would think of it as a kind of distributed intelligence similar to the Geth but in the nanides. The nanides would have some basic instinct of Shepard in their programming, and when enough of them are together, their collective intelligence allows them to act with an organ or animal intelligence to functionally support or reinforce the organism they are a part of.

So, basically I'm saying that the vitalism symbolism is meant to be a metaphor for some unknown and sufficiently advanced technology.

Modifié par Obadiah, 22 mars 2013 - 02:48 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Obadiah wrote...

I don't think the notion of vitalism is really that bad.

I like the idea that in Synthesis Shepard's "soul" has somehow been suffused throughout the galaxy by this explosion by some heretofore unknown technological (Crucible dark energy) and natural ("chain reaction") process - that Shepard is now a part of everything, and his spirit somehow brings everyone closer together.

Well, it's wishy-washy, when I'm talking about my Shep (Who was a sentinel and _would_ have asked a _lot_ more questions before agreeing to anything.) I'd prefer to have more definitive terms to explain the mechanism.

I agree that nanotech was deposited by the relay network and self replicated until it suffused tech and organic complexes and that this matrix held a seed quantum-state that was grown from the energy waveform that was created from the decomposition of Shepards physical form. If people want to stich the lable of "Soul" on that, fine. But It shouldn't be used in it's historical or mythic context.

Oddly, given that (unlike other Geth) the modified platform holding the modified runtimes for Legion could only create seed-personality data for the consensus in a destructive manner implying that the state was quantum in nature. It may be that what the Geth were gaining was akin to the Synthesis-quantum-state (not framework) ahead-of schedule. In fact, The Geth may well be and example of the mechanism that occured in previous cycles that led to the addition of synthesis to the Crucible plans.

Also, if you stick the "soul" label on the quantum-state-leading-to-implicit-emotional-response it would mean that, on Rannoch,  when Legion ask if it has a soul... it does.

Spooky

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 22 mars 2013 - 02:58 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Absaroka wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Honestly, I feel like you are grasping at straws,  Vendetta was a prothean VI, and because the conclusions were incorrect about what the reapers were was just forshadowing for it being incorrect on what it thought the catalyst was as well.  For all we know the original designers had it right, the protheans had it wrong.

You say that shep would have fought the reapers anyway, but we don't know that, the story showed us that s/he needed to be synthesized to resolve the conflict.  If you are aware of another path in the game where Shep doesn't die or is resurected without machine parts, let me konw. Same thing with the geth/quarian conflict, geth needed to synthesize in order to achieve peacful victory.  Nothing you have said has provided sufficient evidence that the designers of the crucible (who were much smarter than the current cycle people) would not think that synthesis would be a viable option when members of the current cycle saw the merits of synthesis.

Why am I the one grasping at straws when you're the one that brings up things that are unverifiable or tangential in regards to the Crucible and the Catalyst specifically?

What do we know about the original designers? Absolutely nothing; we don't know how smart they were, if they knew about the Catalyst AI or its goals, or even if their original design was adapted for use with the Citadel at all.  As such, there is nothing that suggests they saw synthesis as a viable means of addressing the Reaper threat before they were wiped out.

And Shepard was willing to fight the Reapers without synthetic parts, it was an unavoidable part of his/her characterization in ME1; Shepard dying in ME2 may be unavoidable but saying s/he wouldn't fight the Reapers if s/he lived and didn't need to be rebuilt is being disingenuous.  Destroy and control are also both solutions that resolve the conflict that have nothing to do with Shepard's implants.  And Geth were always open to peace even before being upgraded, Legion says as much in ME2 and 3 the choice for peace is left entirely in Quarian hands and whether or not they continue fighting.  It is the very argument that Shepard uses that results in a peaceful outcome.  Again, all of this is still tangential and irrelevant in proving that the Crucible's original function was Synthesis.

Yes, Geth were open to peace before it, but where unable to achieve it without it.  Then afteword they even synthesize with quarian outfits.  Our cycle figues out synthesis is a viable solution to the organic, why would it be unreasonable other cycles wouldn't?

The designers of the crucible recognized that the catalyst was needed, so they knew about the catalyst, which means they new what its purpose was.  If they didn't, how would they design something that would 'change' an advanced AI and present it with 'new possibilities'?

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 22 mars 2013 - 03:01 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Could we maybe get a definition of vitalism and how people think it pertains to ME3?

[Ieldra]

@Mobius-Silent:
I don't have a problem with the "destructive reading". In fact, I have already likened what happens with Shepard in Synthesis to what happens to individuals in the harvesting process, only that the resulting information is used differently - see the relevant post further up on this page.

I do have a problem with using the obfuscating and intentionally nonscientific term "organic energy" for that (I'm reminded of Wilhelm Reich when I read it, which doesn't help at all), because in the end, as soon as this information is taken from Shepard, there's nothing organic about it any more, and because that it has energy is irrelevant. It's information. And I also have a problem with people claiming that I should take "organic energy" literally as vitalism. My reply to Steelcan was specifically aimed at his assertion that Synthesis has vitalism, and that I should accept it as such. I stand by by claim that accepting *that* would destroy the integrity of the MEU.

I also have a problem with the hypothesis that a random collection of information - Shepard as a life form has no intrinsic connection with what the Synthesis does, except for a symbolic one - can shape a very specific outcome. The connection, apart from the symbolism, is arbitrary. The only non-arbitrary element is the thoughts of a Shepard who would choose Synthesis. I can see no other way how reading Shepard can be necessary for Synthesis to work.

As for your quantum state hypothesis, I guess it is possible to assume that changing quantum states have a cascading effect. I find it implausible, though, and fortunately I don't need to accept that hypothesis either. I just need to assume that the Crucible doesn't have the technology for a non-destructive reading.

[Mobius-Silent]

Shaigunjoe wrote...
The designers of the crucible recognized that the catalyst was needed, so they new about the catalyst, which means they new what its purpose was.  If they didn't, how would they design something that would 'change' an advanced AI and present it with 'new possibilities'?

I can't help but suggest that the "initial designers" probably didn't know about the Catalyst, but that, as the cycles passed more and more capability was added to the design, eventually resulting in the ability to use the Relay network.

Just because the Crucible is stated to "change" the Catalyst, it doesn't imply that this needed to be intentional.

If the Catalyst is bound (required) to solve it's problem, and it _knows_ that the cycle is the only way (having tested other options) and the Crucible contains data that makes it obvious that there _is_ another way and that it is _better_ then all of the Catalyst's previous obligation must be re-evaluated in light of the new information, it has been "changed" by the data. This doesn't require any foreknowledge on the part of any of the cycles of Crucible designers

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 22 mars 2013 - 03:24 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I also have a problem with the hypothesis that a random collection of information - Shepard as a life form has no intrinsic connection with what the Synthesis does, except for a symbolic one - can shape a very specific outcome. The connection, apart from the symbolism, is arbitrary. The only non-arbitrary element is the thoughts of a Shepard who would choose Synthesis. I can see no other way how reading Shepard can be necessary for Synthesis to work.

I think there is too much in the dialogue and setting that remains unsatisfying without the emotive-non-brain-non-thought-state-partially-stored-in-organic-material point. It's explains why the reapers have previously failed, why adding synthetics to organics as replacements always fails as a route to synthesis _and_ why the Reapers retain organic material (Without which, their collection of the dead makes no sense)