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[Absaroka]

I assume you mean (not sure), this part?  Though I'm cutting it down:

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The key is seeing Synthesis as not offered by the starkid, but as an emergent property of the work of past civilizations on the crucible.

The problem is, it still doesn't change the idea that the Crucible is still meant to be a device used to address the problem of the Reapers specifically.  And if the Crucible wasn't originally meant to address the Reapers specifically but is able to be used as such then its existence in the story becomes even more absurd.

Again, unless they know what the Reapers want there is no distinct advantage in creating a device that changes all life in the galaxy compared to building one just allows you to control or blow up the Reapers outright.  And if there was some purpose to doing so despite the designer's lack of awareness of it's motives, that synthesis addresses the very problem the Catalyst was created to solve in the first place is yet another all-too convienent contrivance.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Yes but we're not talking poison or cloning here (we've seen them play with cloning and gene placing and poison chemical/ biological warfare via the collectors already btw, so even the things you mentioned have precidence) If they have this tech I expect them to us it at some point through out the campign if they had something similar to this. It's very simple all they have to do is prove they're capable of this sort of level of technology (energy to nanite transformation) is at some point during the invasion have them fire beams of energy at people to turn them into husks. we aldeady know they use nanides stored in dragons teeth to enact this transformation, so if they have this tech they should be using it on the small scale already. They don't though, take that as a hint.

Except for one problem.... that doesn't accomplish their goal. It actually ruins it. Husks are a situational/secondary creation of the cycle. The goal is Reapers.

Speaking of hints, we also happen to know that they've attempted some form of synthesis that failed and was subsequently abandoned, because it was not achieved by the organics themselves. So, I dunno, maybe...

Unless, of course, the nanites already existed. The Citadel is a viable origin, seeing as it's capable of a type of synthesis. Maybe not the best one, but it would be far from the first time in this story that we saw something of "unclean" origins being turned around and used for a good cause.

We've had hundreds of people building the thing someone would have mentioned it if that was the case, or hell even an brief mention in the war assets, not there though.

The Citadel was an unknown variable, remember? It was already constructed by the time we learned of its necessity.

[Auld Wulf]

Going to support HYR 2.0 here and note that the Citadel hasn't been fully explored according to canon. One instance of this is, quite obviously, that no one knows where the keepers come from or go. It's proven to baffle and annoy Citadel workers, but no one's been able to figure it out over the course of the history of the Citadel. Their existence has just been accepted because they do work to keep the Citadel in peak working condition.

So who knows what lies within the bowels of the Citadel?

[Auld Wulf]

@Absaroka

There's actually no telling that the Crucible was designed to address the Reapers specifically. It would be a solution to the Reaper problem, but where does it say within any of the games that the creators claimed that the Crucible was there to address the Reapers? To the contrary, to me, it sounds more like the Crucible is there to address the Catalyst. That's what dawned on me throughout my very first playthrough of ME3. And at the end you realise that solving the Reaper problem is a side effect of addressing the Catalyst.

The Crucible designer(s) clearly knew of the Catalyst and it's stated very specifically that the Catalyst is required in order for the Crucible to do anything. It isn't a weapon to be pointed at the Reapers, that's just an assumption on Hackett's part. (Because he's a nasty little soldier man who wants to watch everything burn, not unlike Gerrel. I'm really not a fan.) So what we have is a device that's created to address the Catalyst.

Or more specifically, an error in the Catalyst.

That's how I always took it. Otherwise... why even have a Catalyst? Why mention a Catalyst? The Crucible designers even put way more emphasis on the Catalyst than they do on the Reapers. They realise that the Reaper problem exists because of the control program within the Catalyst that keeps them enslaved to the doctrine of 'preserving life.'

To look at the Crucible as a weapon is just silly, basic, militaristic thinking. It's more of a hacking device if anything, with some added resources thrown in for good measure.

Edit: To clarify further -- the Crucible designers knew that the Catalyst and the Citadel were capable of many things. Their desire was clearly to hack the Catalyst to take advantage of what it could do, not to destroy the Reapers specifically. It's not a giant space gun.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 22 mars 2013 - 10:22 .

[Obadiah]

I'll jump down this rabbit hole for a bit.

"Catalyst" was a term we got from the Prothean-to-Current translation of the Crucible plans. The AI in the Citadel calls itself the Catalyst, but Vendetta said the Catalyst was the Citadel. Do you think the Protheans knew about the Citadel AI, or just mistranslated the plans from a previous cycle?

[Absaroka]

The Protheans at least did not know about the AI housed in the Citadel; Vendetta makes it clear at least one faction of their empire was aware that the Reapers were controlled by something but did not know they were one in the same.

Again, there is no telling whether the plans for the Crucible even involved the Citadel originally or if that part was introduced later in its development.

[The Night Mammoth]

Obadiah wrote...

I'll jump down this rabbit hole for a bit.

"Catalyst" was a term we got from the Prothean-to-Current translation of the Crucible plans. The AI in the Citadel calls itself the Catalyst, but Vendetta said the Catalyst was the Citadel. Do you think the Protheans knew about the Citadel AI, or just mistranslated the plans from a previous cycle?

Neither, the Protheans call the Citadel the Catalyst, and the AI is the Citadel.

Otherwise, the Catalyst would have knowingly eradicated a cycle which had completed the Crucible, and that would be a strange thing to do, or the Catalyst would have communed with the Protheans, which means they were judged unworthy or chose Refuse.

Both contradict Vendetta and the Crucible blueprints which say the Crucible was unfinished and was missing the Catalyst, sabotaged before it could be used.

[Obadiah]

@Absaroka
I agree. Even if the Crucible was not originally designed to interact with the Catalyst and the Citadel, its design may have been updated by one of the cycles to do that. Do you think its current design is intentionally supposed to interact with the Catalyst AI (as opposed to just the Citadel)?

@Night Mammoth
The Catalyst AI disputes that itself is the Citadel. It says the Citadel is part of it, and the Citadel is its home. That would mean the Catalyst is not the Citadel.

Why would it be strange for the Catalyst to eradicate a cycle that completed the Crucible?

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Steelcan, you have no idea how wide-ranging accepting that would be. It would mean that vitalism is an integral part of the definition of life in the ME Universe. It wouldn't just affect Synthesis, it would completely change how we understand life in this fictional universe, retroactively, and it would mean accepting an understanding fundamentally incompatible with present-day science. You would have to accept it as well, regardless of your preferred ending choice.

I do not think the phrasing was carefully chosen. I think it was carelessly chosen, motivated by the sole objective of obfuscation and avoiding clarity, of artificiually infusing incomprehensibility into the nature of things, regardless of the cost to worldbuilding.

Evidence? The cut dialogue from the SM. From "destructive analysis" to "essence of a species". From clarity to obfuscation, from science to mysticism.

. The CUT dialogue.  Whenever the Reapers come up vitalism follows.  Perhaps i could have clarified that.  You may disagree with this direction t hat the writers chose, I do as well.  I also disagree with the direction Cerberus went in, but I'm not changing the words used to describe them.  I work within the confines of the script.

[Steelcan]

@Auld Wolf, the Crucible was designed to use the Catalyst, not solve its problem. I see no reason for anyone to believe that the Crucible's designers were aware of the Catalyst as we know it is. It's clear that they meant the Citadel.

[Argolas]

Steelcan wrote...

@Auld Wolf, the Crucible was designed to use the Catalyst, not solve its problem. I see no reason for anyone to believe that the Crucible's designers were aware of the Catalyst as we know it is. It's clear that they meant the Citadel.

Which makes obvious sense. The Crucible blast is meant to spread through the whole galaxy and uses the Relay network to do so. The Citadel is its hub and would thus be used to direct the energy.

[Obadiah]

Argolas wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Auld Wolf, the Crucible was designed to use the Catalyst, not solve its problem. I see no reason for anyone to believe that the Crucible's designers were aware of the Catalyst as we know it is. It's clear that they meant the Citadel.

Which makes obvious sense. The Crucible blast is meant to spread through the whole galaxy and uses the Relay network to do so. The Citadel is its hub and would thus be used to direct the energy.

Well, there has to have been some interface for the Crucible to use the Citadel. It can't be as siimple as discharge energy at this point and Citadel will disperse it.

That interface, depending on how it functions, could have been designed or co-opted by the Crucible designers to corupt the Catalyst AI.

[Argolas]

Obadiah wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Auld Wolf, the Crucible was designed to use the Catalyst, not solve its problem. I see no reason for anyone to believe that the Crucible's designers were aware of the Catalyst as we know it is. It's clear that they meant the Citadel.

Which makes obvious sense. The Crucible blast is meant to spread through the whole galaxy and uses the Relay network to do so. The Citadel is its hub and would thus be used to direct the energy.

Well, there has to have been some interface for the Crucible to use the Citadel. It can't be as siimple as discharge energy at this point and Citadel will disperse it.

That interface, depending on how it functions, could have been designed or co-opted by the Crucible designers to corupt the Catalyst AI.

Vendetta literally says it will be said interface.

[Obadiah]

Argolas wrote...
...
Vendetta literally says it will be said interface.

Right, but with what and how. I mean, we have the general description that it will interface with the Citadel, but what does that mean? Does it upload some verson it itself onto some subsystem, does it operate some connection to an interface on the Citadel, etc...?

How does Vendetta know that utilizing that interface doesn't directly interface or change the Catalyst?

[Argolas]

Obadiah wrote...

Argolas wrote...
...
Vendetta literally says it will be said interface.

Right, but with what and how. I mean, we have the general description that it will interface with the Citadel, but what does that mean? Does it upload some verson it itself onto some subsystem, does it operate some connection to an interface on the Citadel, etc...?

How does Vendetta know that utilizing that interface doesn't directly interface or change the Catalyst?

I don't think we know anything beyond that line.

[Absaroka]

In it's current iteration at least, the Crucible is not intended to reprogram the Catalyst AI because neither the present cycle nor the cycle of the Protheans before them were aware the AI exists.  Logically, you can't intentionally change something you don't know about at all.

The only way that the Crucible could possibly reprogram the AI is if a past cycle not only knew of it, preserved and passed down the Crucible's plans while at the same time somehow including parts of the design that are meant to reprogram an AI in such a way that future cycles did not only fail to notice but also not see the need in omitting from the design when they themselves worked on it.  It would be ridiculous, but then again that would hardly be the only thing ridiculous about the Crucible.

[Wayning_Star]

Absaroka wrote...

In it's current iteration at least, the Crucible is not intended to reprogram the Catalyst AI because neither the present cycle nor the cycle of the Protheans before them were aware the AI exists.  Logically, you can't intentionally change something you don't know about at all.

The only way that the Crucible could possibly reprogram the AI is if a past cycle not only knew of it, preserved and passed down the Crucible's plans while at the same time somehow including parts of the design that are meant to reprogram an AI in such a way that future cycles did not only fail to notice but also not see the need in omitting from the design when they themselves worked on it.  It would be ridiculous, but then again that would hardly be the only thing ridiculous about the Crucible.

yeah, your comment leaves me to believe(even more) that the actual author of the choices menu is Shepard, via the mind meld type communication between Shep and the catalyst. I figured that on the metagame reality of the breath scene in destroy, as there isn't much of a way Shep could be in two different places at the same time. As well as the Leviathan segment during their 'talk', goes to show more of the dream state interactivity of two 'related' organic and synthetic life forms. Levi came first, catalyst intelligence second.  Even indoctrination techniques are similar between the two different species of intellect.

This could infer that Shepard is actually the invoker of the choices by the different sentiment experienced before the final episode and their resultant 'reflections'. Also, this could mean that the crucible is only a crude power supply, as the catalyst provides, but over time, has been improved or 'tinkered' with to provide the needed energy to overdrive the catalyst computer(as that is all really the catalyst is, the citadel could be it's data banks along with reaperships, apparently, as it states it and they are pretty much synonymous.) And there is NO other lore in the story that provides exacting data regarding anyone being 'informed' enough to actually design anything to alter the programming of the catalyst, other than, possibly, the hidden Leviathan. But they are not privy to alterations and the Citadel, as that was designed and build by the catalyst and accompanying thrall races years back. All ran/maintained by the Keepers, who are kind of a third wheel within the scope of the story.

Edit to add: Also ,we can surmise from the depicted power output that the crucible is indeed the needed push to alter the 'capacity' of the intelligence gone catalyst, to actually live up to it's new 'identity' as a component of change within and without the MEU. As this could and probably does point to the actuality of it and the Citadel as pre designed coexisting components of the endless cycles preceding any needed changes to  alter the necessary reality that endangers the MEU. Without intimate knowledge of all things catalyst/MEU, there is no way to actually construct the needed tools to accomplish the choices given. It all ends up an enigma of sorts, up until Shepard makes a choice. Shepard is the only one with enough data on the given menu to understand "generally" what is at stake with each. It appears that the catalyst it's self, doesn't care in the least. With the crucible technology attached, somehow?, it can fathom the ideals presented by the Shepard platform and associated intellect...and possibly, emotions?

Edit again, during this flight of ideas via manic states..

We have to consider the crucible/catalyst affect on the Reaperships, as they're part of the story, and integrated with the catalyst as well, we have no real idea as to their function in that regard, other than harvest. We do know that they are indeed part of the catalyst intellect, in the form of functioning 'brain' aspect of catalyst thinking abilities. How that could be affected by the crucible power surge is no way reflected, neither is their capacity to augment the catalysts' "intelligence" over time and their numbers. It would seem simplistic that they could and do increase the catalyst ability to perform calculation. We don't know if they're cargo, as lore pertains, commits to any increase in compassion or organic symbolic references to emotions as that effects any self survival or other obvious traits of evolution. We don't really get to know reaperships, other than what they 'supposedly' intend for the MEU. Their strange and underexplained  harvest to preserve. Maybe they just are the given intellect of the harvested, as that is enough in their machine mind, to preserve, more than just a memory of those harvested. Apparently they still exist within reaper hulls, or the reaperships themselves would have less of any justification for their existence/purpose. All this set forth by the intelligence gone catalyst. In other words, the reaperships 'could' remember and provide input for altercation of catalyst protocols?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 23 mars 2013 - 07:44 .

[Obadiah]

Absaroka wrote...

In it's current iteration at least, the Crucible is not intended to reprogram the Catalyst AI because neither the present cycle nor the cycle of the Protheans before them were aware the AI exists.  Logically, you can't intentionally change something you don't know about at all.
...

Well, the Crucible, if it was designed to interact with the Catalyst AI, wouldn't need to actually reprogram it, just know enough about it to get it to change. The Catalyst AI  basically says that the Crucible altered the variables. That may have been exactly what the Crucuble was designed to do to bring about the Reaper's destruction. It may have been constructed to act like a versatile prosthetic.

I don't really think that's what the ME3 ending plot is, but I like the idea.

[Shaigunjoe]

Obadiah wrote...

Absaroka wrote...

In it's current iteration at least, the Crucible is not intended to reprogram the Catalyst AI because neither the present cycle nor the cycle of the Protheans before them were aware the AI exists.  Logically, you can't intentionally change something you don't know about at all.
...

Well, the Crucible, if it was designed to interact with the Catalyst AI, wouldn't need to actually reprogram it, just know enough about it to get it to change. The Catalyst AI  basically says that the Crucible altered the variables. That may have been exactly what the Crucuble was designed to do to bring about the Reaper's destruction. It may have been constructed to act like a versatile prosthetic.

I don't really think that's what the ME3 ending plot is, but I like the idea.

Perhaps, I find it also interesting that in order for destroy to work, you actually have to break a part of the crucible, and for control to work you have to short circuit it.  Synthesis is the only one that doesn't alter or circumvent the design thats in place, it just needs the blueprint.  Which suggests that Shep is moreso the catalyst as oppossed to...well...the catalyst.

[TheConstantOne]

I've been thinking about the failed synthesis attempts that the Catalyst says it attempted before in the past. The Catalyst claims that synthesis failed because the organics were not ready and that it couldn't be forced.

I've come to believe that there is a better way to interpret this comment other than "the organics had to choose it." It could instead relate to genetic variability. Humans in the MEU are said to have a very all inclusive set of genes: lots of statistical variability. I'm thinking when the Catalyst says that Shepard "is ready", he means that the human genetic sequence has evolved to the point where it could be utilized to bring about the synthesis of life. Humans' genetic variability could be used as the blueprint to create nanites which are adaptable and able to coexist with any species' biology.

[Aurora313]

Seeing more and more synthsis art recently. Glad to see some people on Tumblr are starting to
accept it as an ending. And there's a written piece to go with it.

Modifié par Aurora313, 30 mars 2013 - 01:52 .

[Auld Wulf]

@TheConstantOne

Interesting theory. It appeals to me because it's supported by the evidence, which are the best kinds of theories. (We don't get too many of those, sadly.)

In ME2, the Collectors infected a portion of Omega with a virus that wasn't meant to kill, but it was an experiment in genetic variability. Mordin talks about it. Humans already had that genetic variability, so they didn't need to be experimented on. However, the other species were said to not possess such a broad degree of genetic mutation, having a more ordered structure. As such, the Collectors were trying to bring about genetic variation in non-human species, which might bring them closer to the Synthesis goal.

In the ending of ME3, it's stated that the Crucible has changed the Catalyst. It's said that one of the species of Crucible designers were really smart, possibly even Leviathan levels of smart, and the evidence indicates that they were aware of all the factors involved. They knew about the Catalyst, and they knew how to manipulate him. Apparently the Crucible gives the Catalyst the last few pieces of the puzzle. Organics are ready because, technically, the organic designers of the Crucible figured out the last parts of the puzzle for him.

Really interesting. I like it.

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@TheConstantOne

Interesting theory. It appeals to me because it's supported by the evidence, which are the best kinds of theories. (We don't get too many of those, sadly.)

In ME2, the Collectors infected a portion of Omega with a virus that wasn't meant to kill, but it was an experiment in genetic variability. Mordin talks about it. Humans already had that genetic variability, so they didn't need to be experimented on. However, the other species were said to not possess such a broad degree of genetic mutation, having a more ordered structure. As such, the Collectors were trying to bring about genetic variation in non-human species, which might bring them closer to the Synthesis goal.

In the ending of ME3, it's stated that the Crucible has changed the Catalyst. It's said that one of the species of Crucible designers were really smart, possibly even Leviathan levels of smart, and the evidence indicates that they were aware of all the factors involved. They knew about the Catalyst, and they knew how to manipulate him. Apparently the Crucible gives the Catalyst the last few pieces of the puzzle. Organics are ready because, technically, the organic designers of the Crucible figured out the last parts of the puzzle for him.

Really interesting. I like it.

Unfortunately, redesigning nature to it's root value is quite the mysterious 'technology' as if they, who ever that is, figured out exactly how to do that, some how...and the apparent need to do that to reset the imbalance created by the Leviathan toxic industrial spill, otherwise known as the intelligence, once it went all catalyst on the MEU...

I suspect that sentience in general stumble upon the reality, as per usual. NONE of the apparent sapience amongst the minoritized synthetic life forms were actually 'designed' to be "life forms", nature it's self pulled another rabbit out of it's hat, apparently by creating sentience gone sapient.

Synthesis is the culmination of that. Organics wouldn't have it any other way. They like to stir the pot, as it were. But that takes.... tools.

[Yestare7]

Sometimes I read here for a few minutes, good for the laugh muscles.

[Wayning_Star]

Aurora313 wrote...



Seeing more and more synthesis art recently. Glad to see some people on Tumblr are starting to
accept it as an ending. And there's a written piece to go with it.

why does that Caricature seem to provide such attitude?