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[Taboo]

Actually I heard that humans hit peak of intelligence and have actually been getting dumber ever since. I honestly can't remember if it was a legitimate article or not.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Actually I heard that humans hit peak of intelligence and have actually been getting dumber ever since. I honestly can't remember if it was a legitimate article or not.

You've likely heard of Gerald Crabtree's hypothesis. Against that, there is the Flynn effect. I'd be willing to give Crabtree's hypothesis some credit but the examples he quotes do not inspired confidence, and so far it's a hypothesis without any support by actual data. Also, we are living in the time where genes intermingle more thoroughly than at any time in human history. That is usually understood to have a beneficial effect. 

Generally, I think the understanding of these matters is as yet insufficient to make a claim in either direction. If Crabtree is right, any "repair" of human intelligence on the population level will be either predicated on higher selection pressure, which would be very unpleasant, or genetic engineering, provided we can develop the latter before we've become too dumb to do it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 avril 2013 - 09:28 .

[Obadiah]

I think the writer of the ending confused the scientific and common usage meanings of the words evolve and evolution.

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 avril 2013 - 03:56 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Humanity is not getting dumber. We're getting smarter, and, more self-aware.

We are, more than ever before, literate in the arts and culture. Things that were not well understood a long time ago are common-knowledge today (things like evolution, heliocentrism, etc.) and we are generally more literate in math and science than man was years ago.

Technology not previously available to us before, like the internet, allows us to transfer so much knowledge/information from person to person. We're aware of world news just about as instantly as it happens.

Do we do stupid stuff as a result of this knew information and knowledge? Sure, but that need not imply we're all getting stupider and is a negligible overall issue. On the whole, we are improving.

In short, you can't sell me on huntering-and-gathering doing more for our intelligence than reading and writing.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 03 avril 2013 - 04:27 .

[ruggly]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Humanity is not getting dumber.

snip

I don't know, I've seen a few questionable things in my short life. I'm looking at you, Jersey Shore and screenshots of Facebook stati with absolute nonsense, and other things.

But I guess that's the exception to the rule, and self-contained samples.

[His Name was HYR!!]

ruggly wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Humanity is not getting dumber.

snip

I don't know, I've seen a few questionable things in my short life. I'm looking at you, Jersey Shore and screenshots of Facebook stati with absolute nonsense, and other things.

But I guess that's the exception to the rule, and self-contained samples.

The side-effect of increased intelligence is increased self-awareness, as I mentioned.

We're more aware of stupidity when we see it, and it's more readily available to us now than before, but it's misleading.

On the whole, we're getting better, hard as it may be to believe. One must not confuse stupidity with all change.

[Ieldra]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Humanity is not getting dumber. We're getting smarter, and, more self-aware.

We are, more than ever before, literate in the arts and culture. Things that were not well understood a long time ago are common-knowledge today (things like evolution, heliocentrism, etc.) and we are generally more literate in math and science than man was years ago.

Technology not previously available to us before, like the internet, allows us to transfer so much knowledge/information from person to person. We're aware of world news just about as instantly as it happens.

Do we do stupid stuff as a result of this knew information and knowledge? Sure, but that need not imply we're all getting stupider and is a negligible overall issue. On the whole, we are improving.

In short, you can't sell me on huntering-and-gathering doing more for our intelligence than reading and writing.

Ah, you're misunderstanding the hypothesis. What we are doing is using more of our available intelligence in ever more areas of life. We can do that because we're generally more healthy than people of the past who had neither the resources to feed themselves optimally nor the free time to learn things not immediately conducive to survival. In parallel, things have certainly gotten more cognitively demanding all the time.

The problem, however, is that those who can't meet those demands don't die off any longer because our technology makes it easy to keep everyone alive, and they aren't even kept from having children. Biological evolution, however, only works if there is selection pressure, i.e. if those with the less adaptable traits have fewer children overall who survive to have children of their own. Given that most mutations are disadvantageous, the combined effect may be that the average intelligence level drops, even while our society demands more and more of it.

This development may be masked for some time by improvements in living conditions and improved education levels, which will increase the amount of applied cognitive power, but the amount of total available cognitive power given optimal conditions may still decrease. I have no idea if this will ever result in noticeable effects before our technology advances to the point that we gain control over our genetic predispositions, and there are currently no data to support the hypothesis, but the reasoning is sound.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 avril 2013 - 06:14 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Humanity is not getting dumber. We're getting smarter, and, more self-aware.

We are, more than ever before, literate in the arts and culture. Things that were not well understood a long time ago are common-knowledge today (things like evolution, heliocentrism, etc.) and we are generally more literate in math and science than man was years ago.

Technology not previously available to us before, like the internet, allows us to transfer so much knowledge/information from person to person. We're aware of world news just about as instantly as it happens.

Do we do stupid stuff as a result of this knew information and knowledge? Sure, but that need not imply we're all getting stupider and is a negligible overall issue. On the whole, we are improving.

In short, you can't sell me on huntering-and-gathering doing more for our intelligence than reading and writing.

Ah, you're misunderstanding the hypothesis. What we are doing is using more of our available intelligence in ever more areas of life. We can do that because we're generally more healthy than people of the past who had neither the resources to feed themselves optimally nor the free time to learn things not immediately conducive to survival. In parallel, things have certainly gotten more cognitively demanding all the time.

The problem, however, is that those who can't meet those demands don't die off any longer because our technology makes it easy to keep everyone alive, and they aren't even kept from having children. Biological evolution, however, only works if there is selection pressure, i.e. if those with the less adaptable traits have fewer children overall who survive to have children of their own. Given that most mutations are disadvantageous, the combined effect may be that the average intelligence level drops, even while our society demands more and more of it.

This development may be masked for some time by improvements in living conditions and improved education levels, which will increase the amount of applied cognitive power, but the amount of total available cognitive power given optimal conditions may still decrease. I have no idea if this will ever result in noticeable effects before our technology advances to the point that we gain control over our genetic predispositions, and there are currently no data to support the hypothesis, but the reasoning is sound.

HYR forgot to notice that the 'hunter gatherer' gizmo is what got the MEU where it is to date.. Yay!!, free stuff on Mars.. whoo whooo.

but then to choose synthesis, out of hand,is..well, disingenuous?

[Wayning_Star]

Where to go in the MEU and just how fast you want to get there?

(if you need to ask how much does it cost, then, you cannot afford it.)

[ruggly]

I can afford anything in the MEU with some organic essence.

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

I can afford anything in the MEU with some organic Shepard essence.

italics correction of omission.

[ruggly]

But I have extra sitting in my ass, I want it to go away

[Obadiah]

In Guns Germs And Steel, the writer describes hunter gatherers in Papua New Guinee that memorize thousands of plants and variants so they know not to accidentally poison themselves on a daily basis.

I can't say for certain that trait/ability is an absolute benefit, but its downright astonishing what a high pressure hunter gatherer environment can squeeze out of the human mind. Abilities like that seem lost as we fill highly specialized roles in cities.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2013 - 12:25 .

[Obadiah]

Er, back to this "final evolution" thing, perhaps what the writer was trying to convey was an evolution that transcended life as we know it? So life that existed would still evolve, but, er... consciousness would somehow transcend that?

Hmm... work in progress.

[New Display Name]

I interpreted the "final evolution" from the Catalyst as a prediction that organics will eventually "merge" with technology. Cyborgs, in other words. I actually doubt that humans won't eventually do this.

[New Display Name]

HJF4 wrote...

I interpreted the "final evolution" from the Catalyst as a prediction that organics will eventually "merge" with technology. Cyborgs, in other words. I actually doubt that humans won't eventually do this.

Though I should add, some time after becoming transhumans (augmenting or replacing our body parts with technology), we'll take the next step to becoming posthumans, sufficiently different from the natural human that we warrant new classification. So if I were to frame Synthesis as any kind of "evolution," I would say it's the next evolution, not the final.

[Ieldra]

HJF4 wrote...

HJF4 wrote...
I interpreted the "final evolution" from the Catalyst as a prediction that organics will eventually "merge" with technology. Cyborgs, in other words. I actually doubt that humans won't eventually do this.

Though I should add, some time after becoming transhumans (augmenting or replacing our body parts with technology), we'll take the next step to becoming posthumans, sufficiently different from the natural human that we warrant new classification. So if I were to frame Synthesis as any kind of "evolution," I would say it's the next evolution, not the final.

The "final" was always the problem with that phrase. That Synthesis is a step forward on some scale of artificial evolution, and that it involves merging with technology, that has always been clear, but the "final" implies that nothing else will come after - which is nonsense from any reasonable point of view and belied by the epilogue as well. 

I dismiss the "final" as nonsense in my interpretation, but I'm still confused about what the writers wanted to express with it. Nobody can be *that* stupid and expect it to be taken literally, right? And if not, why the hell not express things clearly?

[bukkfizzman]

Exactly Everyone listen to themselves synthesis is just forced evolution and unjustified.

Modifié par bukkfizzman, 04 avril 2013 - 11:52 .

[Auld Wulf]

Um. Actually it's just an upgrade that allows us to cure all sickness/frailty and integrate tech into ourselves more efficiently. (And for synthetics, they get proper emotions and emotional maturity.)

So, hey. Did you hear that cancer may be well on the way to being cured?

I wonder what would happen if you were dying of cancer and couldn't give your consent for treatment? Is that "forced evolution" then? Okay! Have fun with that.

The rest of us will actually enjoy the upgrades and freedom from sickness and frailty.

You know, some days I miss when humans were creatures of reason, rather than fear.

[Auld Wulf]

Regarding evolution? I took the "final" aspect to mean the removal of apex races, in that there would be no more of one species getting an absolute foothold over others. It was a great gift offered by the Crucible redesigners so we wouldn't just end up as leviathan slaves (which I can see happening if we just casually destroy the Reapers and cast aside Synthesis).

It's "final" in that it's "final" for the Catalyst. The Catalyst isn't needed. The leviathans always were the problem, they embodied the problem. So from the Catalyst's viewpoint, it would be final. Since for him it's the end of days. His purpose is met. Goodbye dear friends and all that.

[Obadiah]

Another idea: Evolution works over millions of years with random genetic mutations getting passed on to descendents. "Final Evolution" could be the point where we direct our mutations through tech, sort of like with gene therapy except much more widespread and common.

That didn't sound creepy.

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 avril 2013 - 02:25 .

[bukkfizzman]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Um. Actually it's just an upgrade that allows us to cure all sickness/frailty and integrate tech into ourselves more efficiently. (And for synthetics, they get proper emotions and emotional maturity.)

So, hey. Did you hear that cancer may be well on the way to being cured?

I wonder what would happen if you were dying of cancer and couldn't give your consent for treatment? Is that "forced evolution" then? Okay! Have fun with that.

The rest of us will actually enjoy the upgrades and freedom from sickness and frailty.

You know, some days I miss when humans were creatures of reason, rather than fear.

Fear? Fear? Fear has nothing to do with it Shepard has no right, We have no right as the player to make a choice like that. 

[Wayning_Star]

bukkfizzman wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Um. Actually it's just an upgrade that allows us to cure all sickness/frailty and integrate tech into ourselves more efficiently. (And for synthetics, they get proper emotions and emotional maturity.)

So, hey. Did you hear that cancer may be well on the way to being cured?

I wonder what would happen if you were dying of cancer and couldn't give your consent for treatment? Is that "forced evolution" then? Okay! Have fun with that.

The rest of us will actually enjoy the upgrades and freedom from sickness and frailty.

You know, some days I miss when humans were creatures of reason, rather than fear.

Fear? Fear? Fear has nothing to do with it Shepard has no right, We have no right as the player to make a choice like that. 

Probably why the catalyst via the Leviathan forces the issue? Really tho, Shep has NO business making ANY of the choices for the MEU. But...here we are.

[Wayning_Star]

Don't worry folks, there's probably statistically about a zillion more Apex races out there, if any actually exist in the MEU...

(weird thought: If humanity exists in outer space, the odds tumble to the fact that others exist in outer space. Space faring ones would likely not share data tho, probably for the same reason the odds are good that we're NOT ALONE, just ignored. I hate it when that happens..)

[Obadiah]

@Wayning_Star
Aren't Apex predators just beings at the top of the food chain, or just predators with no predators of their own? Got that from wikipedia. Wouldn't an Apex race just be any race like that? Isn't the MEU civilization post Reaper War that "race"?