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[bukkfizzman]

Wayning_Star wrote...

bukkfizzman wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Um. Actually it's just an upgrade that allows us to cure all sickness/frailty and integrate tech into ourselves more efficiently. (And for synthetics, they get proper emotions and emotional maturity.)

So, hey. Did you hear that cancer may be well on the way to being cured?

I wonder what would happen if you were dying of cancer and couldn't give your consent for treatment? Is that "forced evolution" then? Okay! Have fun with that.

The rest of us will actually enjoy the upgrades and freedom from sickness and frailty.

You know, some days I miss when humans were creatures of reason, rather than fear.

Fear? Fear? Fear has nothing to do with it Shepard has no right, We have no right as the player to make a choice like that. 

Probably why the catalyst via the Leviathan forces the issue? Really tho, Shep has NO business making ANY of the choices for the MEU. But...here we are.

Its unfortunate but at least with destroy you know that its what mostly everyone in the galaxy wanted.

Modifié par bukkfizzman, 05 avril 2013 - 03:41 .

[Auintus]

Probably why the catalyst via the Leviathan forces the issue? Really tho, Shep has NO business making ANY of the choices for the MEU. But...here we are.

Its unfortunate but at least with destroy you know that its what mostly everyone in the galaxy wanted.

Not true. Nobody else knew all the options, or the cost of Destroy. The geth would disagree, I'm sure, and likely the quarians as well. The problem is that nobody knows that there is another way. I see value in every option, but Destroy just isn't worth the cost.

Modifié par Auintus, 09 avril 2013 - 12:52 .

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
Another idea: Evolution works over millions of years with random genetic mutations getting passed on to descendents. "Final Evolution" could be the point where we direct our mutations through tech, sort of like with gene therapy except much more widespread and common.

That didn't sound creepy.

That's one of the possibilities I mentioned in the OP of this thread: "Final evolution" is the end of natural, biological evolution as technology has grown so advanced that natural evolution will be superseded by deliberate change. This also means that we can still let natural evolution continue if we want, and that it automatically continues ion species not advanced enough to control their own evolution.

I'm not sure if that was the intended meaning, but it doesn't matter. The existing phrasing, intentionally or not, is tied to false conceptions if taken literally, so the literal interpretation has to be discarded.

[Ieldra]

bukkfizzman wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Um. Actually it's just an upgrade that allows us to cure all sickness/frailty and integrate tech into ourselves more efficiently. (And for synthetics, they get proper emotions and emotional maturity.)

So, hey. Did you hear that cancer may be well on the way to being cured?

I wonder what would happen if you were dying of cancer and couldn't give your consent for treatment? Is that "forced evolution" then? Okay! Have fun with that.

The rest of us will actually enjoy the upgrades and freedom from sickness and frailty.

You know, some days I miss when humans were creatures of reason, rather than fear.

Fear? Fear? Fear has nothing to do with it Shepard has no right, We have no right as the player to make a choice like that. 

This is irrelevant. The situation calls for a decision with wide-ranging consequences for the future of galactic civilization to be made. You can't opt out and say "I don't have the right". In fact, if the alternative is extinction, then you not only do have the right, you have the obligation to make such a decision.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 avril 2013 - 07:00 .

[ruggly]

I'd argue you have the right for the races involved, but not those who don't know what the bloody f*ck is going on, have no knowledge of the reapers (until...you know), or no idea who the hell Shepard is. In my opinion, and I do mean, my opinion, doing that could mess up a lot of those unknown species.

[Ieldra]

ruggly wrote...
I'd argue you have the right for the races involved, but not those who don't know what the bloody f*ck is going on, have no knowledge of the reapers (until...you know), or no idea who the hell Shepard is. In my opinion, and I do mean, my opinion, doing that could mess up a lot of those unknown species.

It doesn't matter. Every species will eventually be harvested, in this cycle or the next one, whether they know it or not. Whether it will mess things up is a matter of interpretation - I'm going with the obvious fact that Synthesis isn't meant to result in a big disaster, so it generally won't. As I see it, low-tech species will be affected but they won't notice any change. Once they're technologically advanced enough, they'll find they can integrate seamlessly with it as if it had always meant to be that way. In fact, they may adapt to things more easily than the species of galactic civilization since they never knew a different state of things.

[ruggly]

Not in my headcanon, but whatever.

edit: Probably should explain where I was going.  If in fact synthesis does stop all biological evolution, those who are essentially cave men may have a bit of trouble.  Not to say that they can't survive, but it might make it a lot harder.  I don't want to mess with their evolution.

edit edit: So that's why everything turns out fine in my headcanon (non-MEHEM, that is) that they reach for synthesis on their own terms, since that's much more preferable to me without the Space Jesus sacrifice, without messing with the unknown species.  If they want to join society when they're ready, they can. If they don't, that's fine.

Modifié par ruggly, 06 avril 2013 - 12:28 .

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

Not in my headcanon, but whatever.

edit: Probably should explain where I was going.  If in fact synthesis does stop all biological evolution, those who are essentially cave men may have a bit of trouble.  Not to say that they can't survive, but it might make it a lot harder.  I don't want to mess with their evolution.

edit edit: So that's why everything turns out fine in my headcanon (non-MEHEM, that is) that they reach for synthesis on their own terms, since that's much more preferable to me without the Space Jesus sacrifice, without messing with the unknown species.  If they want to join society when they're ready, they can. If they don't, that's fine.

That's a drawback to being apex, doesn't matter what choice you make, as Shepard, it's bound to 'mass effect' the given universe. Even those unwashed masses on undisclosed locations. Besides, it's either outsmart the situation, or quo the status seekers. Shepard gets stuck with the check either way.

(nobody, especially the destroy folks, disses the "jesus" quandary of resurrection, its "OK" if Shepard gets a jump, but not harvested races..sad really

[bukkfizzman]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

[quote]ruggly wrote...
 As I see it, low-tech species will be affected but they won't notice any change. Once they're technologically advanced enough, they'll find they can integrate seamlessly with it as if it had always meant to be that way. In fact, they may adapt to things more easily than the species of galactic civilization since they never knew a different state of things.
[/quote]So if a green wave of energy were to go over the planet right now you would not panic?

[Ieldra]

bukkfizzman wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I see it, low-tech species will be affected but they won't notice any change. Once they're technologically advanced enough, they'll find they can integrate seamlessly with it as if it had always meant to be that way. In fact, they may adapt to things more easily than the species of galactic civilization since they never knew a different state of things.

So if a green wave of energy were to go over the planet right now you would not panic?

*scratches head in confusion* Panic? Why? It's no obvious danger. I'd be curious. And suspicious, probably. The merely unknown is unlikely to make me panic. Mysterious phenomena are interesting, first and foremost.

[ruggly]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Not in my headcanon, but whatever.

edit: Probably should explain where I was going.  If in fact synthesis does stop all biological evolution, those who are essentially cave men may have a bit of trouble.  Not to say that they can't survive, but it might make it a lot harder.  I don't want to mess with their evolution.

edit edit: So that's why everything turns out fine in my headcanon (non-MEHEM, that is) that they reach for synthesis on their own terms, since that's much more preferable to me without the Space Jesus sacrifice, without messing with the unknown species.  If they want to join society when they're ready, they can. If they don't, that's fine.

That's a drawback to being apex, doesn't matter what choice you make, as Shepard, it's bound to 'mass effect' the given universe. Even those unwashed masses on undisclosed locations. Besides, it's either outsmart the situation, or quo the status seekers. Shepard gets stuck with the check either way.

(nobody, especially the destroy folks, disses the "jesus" quandary of resurrection, its "OK" if Shepard gets a jump, but not harvested races..sad really

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at...If you mean that whatever Shepard chooses, then the fate of the galaxy is forever changed, then yes.  But the 99% of the unknown races are not going to know about for a while, until they join the rest of society (or start it up, if you went with refuse).

At this point though, it's probably best to agree to disagree.  I really do like the idea behind synthesis, but the way it happens is just really off putting and...boring in a way.  So I'm doing what is most appealing to me to reach it.  Yes, the knowledge that the reapers held may be lost for now, but it's also waiting for us to find it again.  That's more exciting to me than to just have it handed over.

[Auld Wulf]

Sometimes I wonder whether we've come very far in the past few hundred years. Sure, back when people were worshipping gods and devils, and living in fear of the sky, then I could see that causing a panic.

Me? My reaction would be more along the lines of: "Huh. I really want to know what caused that. No point in worrying though until I know it's malign. I'll go ask someone who has the relevant sensory equipment!"

And that's coming from someone who's a bit of a hypochondriac. I really can't see why a temporary thing like that would be so panic-inducing. The giant spiral seen over Norway (which we now understand the cause of) didn't cause mass panicking, pillaging, and looting, after all.

So, no. I'd like to think that I've evolved enough to not think that a flash of colour means that a god is angry at me, or that I'm going to die.

[CosmicGnosis]

The Destroy and Control waves also spread across the entire galaxy. So a green wave is not the only one we should "worry" about. At any moment, a fiery red wave or an electrical blue wave could hit the Earth.

Low-EMS Destroy could outright annihilate us. We should probably be more worried about that wave instead of the green one. But you know, the Reapers must die no matter the cost and stuff...

[ruggly]

Well, thank goodness my EMS has been around 7000 both times I beat the game  <_<

Which is what, twice the amount I need for the "best" ending?  With that much, buildings should ****ing rebuild themselves.

Modifié par ruggly, 06 avril 2013 - 10:50 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The Destroy and Control waves also spread across the entire galaxy. So a green wave is not the only one we should "worry" about. At any moment, a fiery red wave or an electrical blue wave could hit the Earth.

Low-EMS Destroy could outright annihilate us. We should probably be more worried about that wave instead of the green one. But you know, the Reapers must die no matter the cost and stuff...

. Any it just wastes Earth.  Everything else is damaged, but not burned to a crisp like Earth is.  

Low EMS Dtroy is just saddening.  If you a that point it'd be better to pick Control.

[New Display Name]

All of the endings end up imposing some kind of change on the galaxy's beings as result of Shepard's actions. Destroy gets rid of all synthetic life. Shepard can take control of the reapers and use them to monitor the galaxy. In synthesis, all organics are merged with technology and all synthetics are made partly organic. In refuse, the galaxy is harvested by Shepard who decided s/he didn't want to violate some principles.

No matter what, life is changed because of what Shepard did. No one else had any input or choice.
In that case, I would choose the options that offer the best chance for better lives for the galaxy. In my personal opinion, that is Control or Synthesis.

[Ieldra]

ruggly wrote...
Well, thank goodness my EMS has been around 7000 both times I beat the game  <_<

Which is what, twice the amount I need for the "best" ending?  With that much, buildings should ****ing rebuild themselves.

LOL, that's exactly what's happening in one of my post-Synthesis scenarios.

Quote (written 5 Mar 2012): "On the surface, not much has changed, except that some people still haven’t got their glowing eyes under control and the rebuilding of the city is evident in the number of structures apparently growing by themselves on nearby properties, using up the rubble remaining from their predecessors as raw material."

Advanced Drexlerian nanotech makes it possible. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 avril 2013 - 08:46 .

[Indy_S]

I can just imagine the extreme rash of people with "bugs under their skin" trying to dig this stuff out. Even if it is temporary (which I doubt), some people will just not be okay with this. And if there is some kind of mass empathy, yeah some would calm down from the reactions of those around them but it works both ways. Hysteria would spread even faster.

Of course, stuff like that tends to weed itself out after a generation or two.

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ruggly wrote...
Well, thank goodness my EMS has been around 7000 both times I beat the game  <_<

Which is what, twice the amount I need for the "best" ending?  With that much, buildings should ****ing rebuild themselves.

LOL, that's exactly what's happening in one of my post-Synthesis scenarios.

Quote (written 5 Mar 2012): "On the surface, not much has changed, except that some people still haven’t got their glowing eyes under control and the rebuilding of the city is evident in the number of structures apparently growing by themselves on nearby properties, using up the rubble remaining from their predecessors as raw material."

Advanced Drexlerian nanotech makes it possible. 

Hm, I should look that up.  I really wish EMS played a much bigger role, in that if I have 7000 EMS, it would be possible for Shepard to survive in synthesis, or even in control (with Shepard becoming more of an empty shell, lacking emotions, but not evil or anything).  I like my heroes alive.

[Ieldra]

ruggly wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

ruggly wrote...
Well, thank goodness my EMS has been around 7000 both times I beat the game  <_<

Which is what, twice the amount I need for the "best" ending?  With that much, buildings should ****ing rebuild themselves.

LOL, that's exactly what's happening in one of my post-Synthesis scenarios.

Quote (written 5 Mar 2012): "On the surface, not much has changed, except that some people still haven’t got their glowing eyes under control and the rebuilding of the city is evident in the number of structures apparently growing by themselves on nearby properties, using up the rubble remaining from their predecessors as raw material."

Advanced Drexlerian nanotech makes it possible. 

Hm, I should look that up.  I really wish EMS played a much bigger role, in that if I have 7000 EMS, it would be possible for Shepard to survive in synthesis, or even in control (with Shepard becoming more of an empty shell, lacking emotions, but not evil or anything).  I like my heroes alive.

Some links:

http://en.wikipedia...._nanotechnology
http://en.wikipedia....nes_of_Creation

As for high EMS, I hate with a passion the idea that playing MP - which you need to get to 7000 EMS (as opposed to 7000 TMS, just in case you're one of the countless people who confuses those) gives you extra and extra-good endings.

With my 4100 EMS (8200 TMS at 50% readiness), I headcanon that Shepard comes back after Synthesis, and that they can regain their capacity for empathy in Control. In one of my first ending comments here on BSN, I recall I asked for a hint that Shepard might survive in Synthesis, because I felt treated unfairly with Shepard being able to survive in the one ending I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Then came the EC, and we got......the Kasumi/Keiji scene. Now I only had to find a lore-compatible way to ensure the information that makes up Shepard continues to exist in a way that Shepard is recoverable, and it's actually rather easy to find...two of those. 

[ruggly]

Shepard VI on the Citadel, sounds 75% more accurate than the other models. Make sure you clean the soda off of it though.

And yeah, it's real crappy that the only ending that you can survive is where you have to kill the Geth and EDI (and the reapers, depending on how you view them). Would have been great just have been able to kill the catalyst, reapers are free, and then they go wherever they want to go. Spread information, go hide somewhere, lounge in the pool, whatever.

[Wayning_Star]

Actually, it's hard to imagine Shep surviving, taking the citadel dlc into account. We don't know for sure if there isn't "many" Sheps out there. That also could shed a dim light upon the 'resurrection' thingy, as it's kind of iffy if that is really Shep at all, who could very well be still on that planet he fell to. All that could just be lore, and lore is, in most cases, subjective. Now to wonder why folks comes up with IT and MEHEM and others.

I don't think it's intentional, just a by product of evolution/head canon..lol

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 09 avril 2013 - 01:26 .

[PsyrenY]

Indy_S wrote...

I can just imagine the extreme rash of people with "bugs under their skin" trying to dig this stuff out. Even if it is temporary (which I doubt), some people will just not be okay with this. And if there is some kind of mass empathy, yeah some would calm down from the reactions of those around them but it works both ways. Hysteria would spread even faster.

Of course, stuff like that tends to weed itself out after a generation or two.

Mass Hysteria woud require us to have the same limited intellect/capacity for understanding we currently do. I didn't get that impression from EDI's narrative.

If we suddenly had group empathy/telepathy and had no understanding of what was going on, you'd be right. But if we all knew, perfectly and instantly? I'd say that would be different.

[ruggly]

Are you kidding? With Citadel, it makes me want Shepard to survive even more (although it would have been funny to keep the clone, only to push her into the beam).

"Every day after" there's going to be a lot of giggity.

[Obadiah]

ruggly wrote...

Shepard VI on the Citadel, sounds 75% more accurate than the other models. Make sure you clean the soda off of it though.

And yeah, it's real crappy that the only ending that you can survive is where you have to kill the Geth and EDI (and the reapers, depending on how you view them). Would have been great just have been able to kill the catalyst, reapers are free, and then they go wherever they want to go. Spread information, go hide somewhere, lounge in the pool, whatever.

Lounging Reaper at the beach:


One of Seival's images from the Control thread. Couldn't help it

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 avril 2013 - 01:42 .