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[New Display Name]

Really? His name is "Shepard"!!!

In the Stargazer scene they replace the "a" with an "e"

"The Sheperd."

Yes, but I was speaking of Synthesis in particular. Shepard is always named Shepard no matter what ending you pick.

Messiah. Dies for your sins. Swan dives into the beam.

Shepard dies in most endings. Shepard doesn't for anyone's "sins," he dies stopping the reapers from killing everyone (except for the refusal ending...)
If anything, the rebirthing as a "god" in the paragon Control ending is more similar to the Jesus myth.

Modifié par HJF4, 10 avril 2013 - 02:48 .

[ruggly]

It may not have been their intent, but I can definitely see the connection. Shepard's rebirth would have been the Lazarus project, Shepard sacrificing him/herself for the reaper's 'sins.'

The parallels are there. Not appealing to me.

Modifié par ruggly, 10 avril 2013 - 03:02 .

[Xilizhra]

I find it a bit interesting, because the Catalyst is basically the MEverse's equivalent of God in many ways. Which makes Destroy kind of like Ragnarok with Shepard in the role of the giants, and Control highly Luciferan. Synthesis may be the most conventionally Jesusy, especially when you consider that many people consider the salvation to be illogical, creepy and insane.

[Indy_S]

You're all over the place on these forums, Wulfie. Just 14 hours ago in this thread, you say:

Auld Wulf wrote...
This is how I feel about things. I get depressed when I hear sentiments like 'because X (which is me) is so different than Y (which is them), I don't think they deserve the same rights, or even want them.'

And yet, you're the one who created this thread because you hated people who chose differently to you. You didn't want them, you even accuse them of being war criminals. Your intolerance comes off as hypocritical.

Auld Wulf wrote...
I understand now that they've never had a chance to think, talk, or act for themselves. In Synthesis, their motives become clear. And really? With actual, present threats like the leviathans and their army of thralls out there? I want the Reapers around.

There is no indication that Synthesis 'frees' the Reapers. There's no reason for it. And adding your headcanon about the threat of the leviathans is not an argument for it. But, alas, it is a different opinion to yours and thus invalid.

[Ieldra]

Indy_S wrote...
There is no indication that Synthesis 'frees' the Reapers.

Actually, there is evidence by implication. I've outlined it in this thread. The alternative is they're being rewritten to have human-style empathy. There's evidence by implication for that as well, but I find it so ultra-cheesy that I don't consider it worth taking seriously.

[Indy_S]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
There is no indication that Synthesis 'frees' the Reapers.

Actually, there is evidence by implication. I've outlined it in this thread. The alternative is they're being rewritten to have human-style empathy. There's evidence by implication for that as well, but I find it so ultra-cheesy that I don't consider it worth taking seriously.

Forgive me but that seems pretty tenuous. It doesn't mean they're not still being controlled, either. It remains possible, though.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I find it a bit interesting, because the Catalyst is basically the MEverse's equivalent of God in many ways. Which makes Destroy kind of like Ragnarok with Shepard in the role of the giants, and Control highly Luciferan. Synthesis may be the most conventionally Jesusy, especially when you consider that many people consider the salvation to be illogical, creepy and insane.

The Catalyst as a god-equivalent is an interesting concept. However, I find it galling that the writers obviously expected players to trust the Catalyst on its pseudo-divine credentials alone, as if they'd never heard of misotheism, which would be a particularly appropriate stance in this case. As I said elsewhere, seeing Destroy as "kill the god" gives Destroy an immense thematic appeal, while Control is based on the rationale "If there must be a god, it might as well be me" and is noticeably less appealing in this context, thematically even though the outcome is better for all practical purposes .

While I see (and hate) the symbolism in Synthesis that "Shepard dies for the Reapers' sins), I don't need to buy into it. I'd rather see Synthesis as civilization as a whole acquiring the power of gods. Thus: ascension. Or: we embrace that which "wasn't meant for humans to know", and it will eventually make us more than human. 

[Ieldra]

Indy_S wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
There is no indication that Synthesis 'frees' the Reapers.

Actually, there is evidence by implication. I've outlined it in this thread. The alternative is they're being rewritten to have human-style empathy. There's evidence by implication for that as well, but I find it so ultra-cheesy that I don't consider it worth taking seriously.

Forgive me but that seems pretty tenuous. It doesn't mean they're not still being controlled, either. It remains possible, though.

The Catalyst is gone with the exploding Presidium ring. Who would control the Reapers post-Synthesis?

[Taboo]

The most interesting concept of a "God" in ME was on the derelict Reaper in ME2. It's a force that alters reality not an old man in the sky.

Personally I think this refers to the Lovecraftian traits of the Reapers but it's an interesting thought. Think a being, alien, AI so advanced it seems to bend reality itself.

At this point Synthesis approaches a level of "fix too much" and "mysticism" for me to believe it to be an ending to a science fiction story. I mean even Andrei Tarkovsky approached things like this in Solaris and Stalker and never insulted my intelligence. You can sooner convince me that a planet may contain an intelligence that can create beings from people's memories than you can Synthesis.




I'm not religious just so we're clear.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 10 avril 2013 - 08:59 .

[Indy_S]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The Catalyst is gone with the exploding Presidium ring. Who would control the Reapers post-Synthesis?

Destroy has a similar explosion that Shepard can survive. It's not a stretch to assume that the Catalyst can survive the explosion in Synthesis.

[Ieldra]

JasonShepard wrote...

ruggly wrote...

I wonder now that the reapers are free in Synthesis, what are the more hostile ones (Harbinger especially) going to do? I don't think Harbinger will stop seeing everyone else as being below him. Whether or not he'll do anything is one thing, and everyone will probably keep an eye out on the hostile ones.

I've been thinking about this for a while - the ideas play into a post-Control fic that I'm writing. The Catalyst presumably controlled the Reapers via a form of indoctrination.

Indoctrination (usually) worked by convincing the subject to follow a set of beliefs - Saren believed the only way to survive the Reapers was to prove our worth, TIM believed that Control was the only acceptable  option, that Big Stupid Jellyfish believed the Reapers were the gods of the Enkindlers - you get the idea.  Worryingly, the longer one has been indoctrinated, the more set in this belief they are. And the Reapers have been indoctrinated for a long  time.
(Indoctrination also degraded the mind of the subject - but notably this doesn't seem to be the case with the Reapers...)
(I'm not quite sure how Benezia fits into this, since she seemed to suffering from something closer to Domination than Indoctrination.)

The thing is - the Reapers were presumably indoctrinated to believe in the Catalyst's solution: ie, that they were necessary for galactic order. The speech on Rannoch supports this. (Also, judging by Sovereign's speech, the Catalyst presumably made them believe that they'd existed forever, that they were the ultimate form of evolution, and that organic life was far beneath them. I don't know why it made them believe those things - maybe just for giggles...)

Take away the Catalyst and the Indoctrination signal, but the belief itself will still remain. The younger Reapers may be able to shake off the effect of their indoctrination, but the older Reapers - and definitely Harbinger - could be a problem. I doubt that they'd still believe in perpetuating the cycles: Synthesis solved the Synthetic/Organic problem, after all, so even by their indoctrinated beliefs, the cycles are unnecessary. However, the superiority complex that most of them had - that could be a problem.

So in a Synthesized galaxy, I can definitely see Harbinger making a play for galactic domination. Whether or not he'd succeed is a different question - after all, the galaxy as a whole just got an upgrade, many Reapers would be allied with the galaxy, and I doubt indoctrination still works after Synthesis, taking away one of Harby's best weapons. We'd probably also get a number of rogue Reapers working on their own (and, of course, the Leviathans are still out there - but that's a whole other problem)...

Honestly, and people say a post-Synthesis galaxy is boring *sigh* 

(Off-topic: Ieldra2 - did you ever finish that Mass Effect 3 playthrough thread you were doing a few weeks back?)

An interesting scenario. I see the Reapers' indoctrination working differently from organics', so I don't necessarily see that the indoctrinated beliefs are held past the vanishing of the signal, but even apart from that, I think Reapers may have personalities inspired by the species they were created from, so there will definitely be Reapers with a non-friendly mindset. Harbinger might be one of those, thought I see it as less unfriendly than Sovereign would've been, given that its lines in ME2 were more dominated by the "forced ascension" theme.

And yes, I agree that a post-Synthesis galaxy is an interesting place. New wonders and new horrors around every corner.

As for my review thread. I finished that playthrough but didn't make a review about Priority: Earth and the ending. The last reviewed mission is Cerberus HQ. I didn't feel up to it at the time, but I'll get to it one of these days. 

@Indy_S:
One thematic implication of both Destroy and Synthesis is that the structure supporting the cycles is gone (as opposed to Control where only the controlling entity is replaced), and that civilization moves to the status quo ante in Destroy and to a new balance in Synthesis. While you can believe the Catalyst is still around after Synthesis and nothing explicitly contradicts that, I don't think it's a reasonable assumption. It also goes against the idea of civilization acquiring the power formerly reserved to the "AI god" and its minions (if you use the symbolism we've been talking about abovethread).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 avril 2013 - 09:21 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find it a bit interesting, because the Catalyst is basically the MEverse's equivalent of God in many ways. Which makes Destroy kind of like Ragnarok with Shepard in the role of the giants, and Control highly Luciferan. Synthesis may be the most conventionally Jesusy, especially when you consider that many people consider the salvation to be illogical, creepy and insane.

.Except the giants died.  Shepard doesn't.  If you are going to use Ragnorok in this example I'd say Shepard falls closer to Heimdall, except he doesn't die.

[ruggly]

Obadiah wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Not to mention Shepard walking INTO the explosion. I mean, really...a seasoned soldier and you walk into the explosion.

Shep wanted to make sure the bullet hit proper.

I guess this shouldn't surprise me.  After all, this does come from the same person that says 'we fight, or we die' and 'this isn't about strategy or tactics, this is about survival.'  Along with many other silly lines.

[Argolas]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The most interesting concept of a "God" in ME was on the derelict Reaper in ME2. It's a force that alters reality not an old man in the sky.

Personally I think this refers to the Lovecraftian traits of the Reapers but it's an interesting thought. Think a being, alien, AI so advanced it seems to bend reality itself.

There is a reason why the moment you watch the first log entry in the derelict Reaper, you get the codex entry "Indoctrination". Those workers were INDOCTRINATED. The Reapers are nothing like gods. They are NOT a mysterious force that can alter reality in ways beyond imagination. They are only extremely powerful dreadnoughts that can manipulate your mind "through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods." (codex). Those means are not mysterious or god-like at all in a science fiction scenario. The "Lovecraftian" view of Reapers is a result of indoctrination.

"A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

[CosmicGnosis]

ruggly wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Not to mention Shepard walking INTO the explosion. I mean, really...a seasoned soldier and you walk into the explosion.

Shep wanted to make sure the bullet hit proper.

I guess this shouldn't surprise me.  After all, this does come from the same person that says 'we fight, or we die' and 'this isn't about strategy or tactics, this is about survival.'  Along with many other silly lines.

The actions are likely more symbolic than literal.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15855483

Basically, Shepard is not physically experiencing the decision chamber. Instead, his mind is interfacing with the Catalyst. That's why everything seems dreamy, why you can hear both male and female Shepard's voice when the Catalyst speaks, why the Catalyst appears as the boy, and why the physical actions don't make logical sense.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 10 avril 2013 - 12:21 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The most interesting concept of a "God" in ME was on the derelict Reaper in ME2. It's a force that alters reality not an old man in the sky.

Personally I think this refers to the Lovecraftian traits of the Reapers but it's an interesting thought. Think a being, alien, AI so advanced it seems to bend reality itself.

There is a reason why the moment you watch the first log entry in the derelict Reaper, you get the codex entry "Indoctrination". Those workers were INDOCTRINATED. The Reapers are nothing like gods. They are NOT a mysterious force that can alter reality in ways beyond imagination. They are only extremely powerful dreadnoughts that can manipulate your mind "through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods." (codex). Those means are not mysterious or god-like at all in a science fiction scenario. The "Lovecraftian" view of Reapers is a result of indoctrination.

"A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

And Synthesis conquers the Lovecraftian view because the Reapers become truly knowable.

[ruggly]

Somehow...that didn't help me feel any better about it..

The Catalyst gains access to Shepard's DNA and synthetic components, and allows them to be merged with the Crucible's energy, then spreading to the whole galaxy. Shepard also dies, likely desintegrated to the subatomic level in the "real" world... or maybe he's left in a comatose state too. (This was the hardest one to figure out, its just way too much Space Magic to understand.)

I don't think I'd be able to figure out how he got DNA from a mind connection over to a beam of light, and then have Shepard randomly disintegrate. I'll just not think about it.

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

And Synthesis conquers the Lovecraftian view because the Reapers become truly knowable.

The Reapers were already figured out pretty well in a technological sense (example: Thanix cannons, the Conduit on Ilos), they aren't really mysterious anymore except their intentions remained unclear. I am pretty sure that the ability to examine the Reapers without getting indoctrinated in the process would quickly answer every remaining question about them.

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

And Synthesis conquers the Lovecraftian view because the Reapers become truly knowable.

. No the Lovecraftian mystique was conquered by the Catalyst and his "logic". They became knowable when their motives were explained.

[Indy_S]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The actions are likely more symbolic than literal.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15855483

Basically, Shepard is not physically experiencing the decision chamber. Instead, his mind is interfacing with the Catalyst. That's why everything seems dreamy, why you can hear both male and female Shepard's voice when the Catalyst speaks, why the Catalyst appears as the boy, and why the physical actions don't make logical sense.

Because walking into an explosion makes perfect sense when you're completely unaware of whether or not what you're experiencing is actually real.

[Taboo]

CosmicGnosis wrote...



And Synthesis conquers the Lovecraftian view because the Reapers become truly knowable.

You have to admit this is pretty ridiculous right? I mean...how? Lol what?

[Wayning_Star]

Synthesis is nothing more than some sort of cosmic terra forming. Instead of planet, you 'do it' to ever thing nature. Nothing out of the ordinary for organics, its why they build tools. So what medical science includes resurrections, many here on old earth could appreciate that.

All the 'deity' talks is amusing really. Nothing to do with the MEU tho..only here, on old earth standards of 'who dunnit'..lol

[Xilizhra]

The Catalyst as a god-equivalent is an interesting concept. However, I find it galling that the writers obviously expected players to trust the Catalyst on its pseudo-divine credentials alone, as if they'd never heard of misotheism, which would be a particularly appropriate stance in this case. As I said elsewhere, seeing Destroy as "kill the god" gives Destroy an immense thematic appeal, while Control is based on the rationale "If there must be a god, it might as well be me" and is noticeably less appealing in this context, thematically even though the outcome is better for all practical purposes .

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

[Taboo]

By the lead writers own admission the Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future. That isn't a guarantee from danger but it certainly puts a damper on the Catalysts projected doomsday clock countdown.

Patrick Weekes also stated that the purpose of the EC's additional dialogue with him was to allow the player to question him. Weekes was in charge of the EC, or most of it, so I'm going to have to go with him on this one.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Catalyst as a god-equivalent is an interesting concept. However, I find it galling that the writers obviously expected players to trust the Catalyst on its pseudo-divine credentials alone, as if they'd never heard of misotheism, which would be a particularly appropriate stance in this case. As I said elsewhere, seeing Destroy as "kill the god" gives Destroy an immense thematic appeal, while Control is based on the rationale "If there must be a god, it might as well be me" and is noticeably less appealing in this context, thematically even though the outcome is better for all practical purposes .

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

. Well the Crucible was already known to be able to Destroy the Reapers, that's why it's being built.