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[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

There is a difference between trusting someone and assuming that he/she speaks the truth, at least what they consider true. The Reapers don't lie to manipulate. Their victims are not deveived, but indoctrinated.

[Wayning_Star]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Catalyst as a god-equivalent is an interesting concept. However, I find it galling that the writers obviously expected players to trust the Catalyst on its pseudo-divine credentials alone, as if they'd never heard of misotheism, which would be a particularly appropriate stance in this case. As I said elsewhere, seeing Destroy as "kill the god" gives Destroy an immense thematic appeal, while Control is based on the rationale "If there must be a god, it might as well be me" and is noticeably less appealing in this context, thematically even though the outcome is better for all practical purposes .

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

actually, Shepard is on the ground, under rubble, bleedin'n stuff, not up there with the Catalyst, who communicates like the Leviathan, only more 'domination'. The crucible changes that though. Keeps it at bay. The Cat isn't friendly in the least, its completely devoid of organic traits. Deception being one of them, compassion, etc. is the other. When it says destroy won't work, it won't work. If it says it will be destroyed that way, it will. It doesn't care. The choices must be from Shepard, or..there is someone else pulling the cats strings via the crucible and choices menu. This menu is either written/authored instantly, or pre determined elsewhere. The facts are not provided, just the choices.

Any and all choices are actuated by the catalyst though, so it must be trusted in any event, or the choices are moot, or muted. The only 'grand scheme' of the catalyst is to find a solution to nature riddle of create and destroy. Be it galaxies, or just organics/synthetics. I doubt the catalyst is all that religious, so the deity gambit is up for discussion with the organics. Mother nature may have something to do with that, but...Shepard is stuck with the choices and helping the catalyst figure out what would actually 'stop' the chaos. (IF anything could?)

[Wayning_Star]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

There is a difference between trusting someone and assuming that he/she speaks the truth, at least what they consider true. The Reapers don't lie to manipulate. Their victims are not deveived, but indoctrinated.

Cannot indoc everyone though. The Leviathan are proof of that, even their thralls create havoc,er..chaos. The Cat is a machine, the crucible boosted it to alter it's perimeters, Permit organics a chance and new 'options' via Shepard to decide 'fate'. (alter the equation?)

[Argentoid]

Indy_S wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The actions are likely more symbolic than literal.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15855483

Basically, Shepard is not physically experiencing the decision chamber. Instead, his mind is interfacing with the Catalyst. That's why everything seems dreamy, why you can hear both male and female Shepard's voice when the Catalyst speaks, why the Catalyst appears as the boy, and why the physical actions don't make logical sense.

Because walking into an explosion makes perfect sense when you're completely unaware of whether or not what you're experiencing is actually real.

Seems like Indy_S has something against my theory.

Modifié par Argentoid, 10 avril 2013 - 10:48 .

[Indy_S]

Argentoid wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Because walking into an explosion makes perfect sense when you're completely unaware of whether or not what you're experiencing is actually real.

Seems like Indy_S has something against my theory.

The only thing I have against the theory is that it doesn't do anything.

[Argentoid]

Indy_S wrote...

Argentoid wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Because walking into an explosion makes perfect sense when you're completely unaware of whether or not what you're experiencing is actually real.

Seems like Indy_S has something against my theory.

The only thing I have against the theory is that it doesn't do anything.

Oh, then please explain so I can give some sense to my own theory.

EDIT: Nevermind.

All what I was trying to do is to give sense to the crazy s*** that happens after Space Elevator. Ergo, state some facts on why the Catalyst looks like a kid, why speaks like that or why in the world there are strange decision chambers that, if taken at face value, were for billions of years on the Citadel.

I think I've already told you that. Why you don't understand is beyond my comprehension.

Modifié par Argentoid, 10 avril 2013 - 10:59 .

[Indy_S]

Argentoid wrote...

Oh, then please explain so I can give some sense to my own theory.

The interface was never an important issue. Shooting the tube, holding the tesla coils or leaping off the diving board were stupid but irrelevant. The options themselves are the issue.

And how do you explain the colour presented in the vision for each option is the colour of the beam that the Citadel sends out?

All what I was trying to do is to give sense to the crazy s*** that happens after Space Elevator. Ergo, state some facts on why the Catalyst looks like a kid, why speaks like that or why in the world there are strange decision chambers that, if taken at face value, were for billions of years on the Citadel.

I think I've already told you that. Why you don't understand is beyond my comprehension.

After seeing that, I realise that I was trying to attribute more to your idea than was intended. Sorry for derailing you in two threads.

Modifié par Indy_S, 10 avril 2013 - 11:13 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Catalyst as a god-equivalent is an interesting concept. However, I find it galling that the writers obviously expected players to trust the Catalyst on its pseudo-divine credentials alone, as if they'd never heard of misotheism, which would be a particularly appropriate stance in this case. As I said elsewhere, seeing Destroy as "kill the god" gives Destroy an immense thematic appeal, while Control is based on the rationale "If there must be a god, it might as well be me" and is noticeably less appealing in this context, thematically even though the outcome is better for all practical purposes .

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

Well, yes, but to make it that way was the writers' decision. They made it so that you had no reasonable alternative but to make your decision assuming that this "AI god" speaks the truth, even though in-world, there was little reason to believe it really had the well-being of life in the galaxy on the agenda except in a most abstract sense which would ultimately be meaningless for any specific civilization. It's like the writers played the "god card" to invoke ultimate exposition authority and make the players accept that they had to make their decision within the antagonist's framework.

Edit:
There isn't any reason why a story can't end this way, mind you, but it sends the message that we don't understand the universe and are incapable of shaping our own fate, that we must always go along with the plans of "gods" and work within their framework in order to get anything meaningful done. It is a message I resent like nothing else in the ME trilogy. One important reason why I choose Synthesis is that civilization is set on the path to acquire the understanding and power so far reserved for the "god" of this universe. It's the only way I can turn that unpleasant message around.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 avril 2013 - 11:22 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Catalyst as a god-equivalent is an interesting concept. However, I find it galling that the writers obviously expected players to trust the Catalyst on its pseudo-divine credentials alone, as if they'd never heard of misotheism, which would be a particularly appropriate stance in this case. As I said elsewhere, seeing Destroy as "kill the god" gives Destroy an immense thematic appeal, while Control is based on the rationale "If there must be a god, it might as well be me" and is noticeably less appealing in this context, thematically even though the outcome is better for all practical purposes .

I would think it'd be enough that you have literally no choice but to trust the Catalyst, unless you want to just sacrifice the entire galaxy. Without the Catalyst's instructions, Shepard has no idea what to do, and can only stand there and bleed out while the Crucible is destroyed. Of course, far too few people recognize that this applies even for Destroy.

Well, yes, but to make it that way was the writers' decision. They made it so that you had no reasonable alternative but to make your decision assuming that this "AI god" speaks the truth, even though in-world, there was little reason to believe it really had the well-being of life in the galaxy on the agenda except in a most abstract sense which would ultimately be meaningless for any specific civilization. It's like the writers played the "god card" to invoke ultimate exposition authority and make the players accept that they had to make their decision within the antagonist's framework.

Edit:
There isn't any reason why a story can't end this way, mind you, but it sends the message that we don't understand the universe and are incapable of shaping our own fate, that we must always go along with the plans of "gods" and work within their framework in order to get anything meaningful done. It is a message I resent like nothing else in the ME trilogy. One important reason why I choose Synthesis is that civilization is set on the path to acquire the understanding and power so far reserved for the "god" of this universe. It's the only way I can turn that unpleasant message around.

Ai god = super advanced/powerful tech?  When an entire sector of space society is at stake(presumably) then it all gets rather hairy. Poor old beat up Shep has to limp around, barely able to walk, yet can (after the cat insists on 'waking up', as if he/she's sleeping?hmmm?) contemplate the issues, with all that pressure(outside chaos;) on.

How long will it take and how much technology will be needed to 'fully' understand the universe? Heck, I have trouble understanding what created Death Valley, or Grand Canyon/Alps or Oceans for that matter. Why worry about it?

Intellect. Stupid thing won't quit asking why. Like the intelligence, only different.

Synthesis alters nature, some by product of intellect... god dammit..lol

[Auld Wulf]

@Ieldra2

I don't agree with that.

There are smarter races than humanity out there. This is the first point of acceptance that you have to make, you have to acknowledge that we are not some ultimate state of evolution. After you've achieved that state of mind, you need to contemplate two things:

1.) The Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him.
2.) Lore says that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst.

A race of beings more intelligent than humans essentially chose to use the Catalyst for their agenda. The Catalyst is just a tool in getting that done. Just as the Catalyst was a tool for the leviathans (who're also smarter than us, despite their hubris). The Catalyst is not a good, it's a tool for people who are like gods, or think themselves to be. It's a tool for people who had giant ideas as to how the Universe should work.

Control and Synthesis were options introduced by the Crucible redesigners. That was something I had to learn for myself. In that case, then they are not the choice of the Catalyst, the Catalyst is just being used to initiate those choices, to make them real. The Catalyst is a conduit for the wills of others, essentially. Originally the Catalyst was a conduit for the desires of the leviathans (at the time it was built), but once connected to the Crucible, the Catalyst also became a conduit for the will of the Crucible redesigners.

All the Catalyst knows about the Crucible redesign is from what the Reapers harvested. But we don't even know if the redeisgners were harvested, they might have chosen to kill themselves before that could happen. Essentially: The Catalyst might not even understand what's happened to him, and we're expecting him to explain.

Just something to think about.

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Ieldra2

I don't agree with that.

There are smarter races than humanity out there. This is the first point of acceptance that you have to make, you have to acknowledge that we are not some ultimate state of evolution. After you've achieved that state of mind, you need to contemplate two things:

1.) The Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him.
2.) Lore says that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst.

A race of beings more intelligent than humans essentially chose to use the Catalyst for their agenda. The Catalyst is just a tool in getting that done. Just as the Catalyst was a tool for the leviathans (who're also smarter than us, despite their hubris). The Catalyst is not a good, it's a tool for people who are like gods, or think themselves to be. It's a tool for people who had giant ideas as to how the Universe should work.

Control and Synthesis were options introduced by the Crucible redesigners. That was something I had to learn for myself. In that case, then they are not the choice of the Catalyst, the Catalyst is just being used to initiate those choices, to make them real. The Catalyst is a conduit for the wills of others, essentially. Originally the Catalyst was a conduit for the desires of the leviathans (at the time it was built), but once connected to the Crucible, the Catalyst also became a conduit for the will of the Crucible redesigners.

All the Catalyst knows about the Crucible redesign is from what the Reapers harvested. But we don't even know if the redeisgners were harvested, they might have chosen to kill themselves before that could happen. Essentially: The Catalyst might not even understand what's happened to him, and we're expecting him to explain.

Just something to think about.

You'd have to define 'more intelligent'. Where in lore is it stated that the crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst? Just asking, as I missed it.

[Ieldra]

Auld Wulf wrote...
There are smarter races than humanity out there. This is the first point of acceptance that you have to make, you have to acknowledge that we are not some ultimate state of evolution.

Of course. That's not the problem. The problem is that if your story uses imagery reminiscent of the divine, then religion is invoked by association, and religion usually states that humans shouldn't aspire to the understanding and the power of "gods". The state of ignorance and powerlessness is implied to be the natural order of things. That's why Synthesis works around this problem. 

After you've achieved that state of mind, you need to contemplate two things:

1.) The Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him.
2.) Lore says that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst.

A race of beings more intelligent than humans essentially chose to use the Catalyst for their agenda. The Catalyst is just a tool in getting that done. Just as the Catalyst was a tool for the leviathans (who're also smarter than us, despite their hubris). The Catalyst is not a god, it's a tool for people who are like gods, or think themselves to be. It's a tool for people who had giant ideas as to how the Universe should work.

Yes, we can infer that if we think about things. Yet, the imagery of the divine works on a subconscious level on those accustomed to its presence. For that to work, it doesn't really matter what the Catalyst actually is, it matters how it is presented. And it is presented with the trappings of divinity.

You see, I look beyond things, and so do you. What I resent is that the story is created in a way that suggests the writers didn't want us to look behind things. The rampant mysticism which replaced exposition which made perfect sense within the lore is yet another example of that. The writers of the ending didn't want science fictional rationalization. They wanted the beyond-our-understanding pseudo-mysticism. They wanted "feel, don't think" (and *that* message is all over the game). 

Control and Synthesis were options introduced by the Crucible redesigners. That was something I had to learn for myself. In that case, then they are not the choice of the Catalyst, the Catalyst is just being used to initiate those choices, to make them real. The Catalyst is a conduit for the wills of others, essentially. Originally the Catalyst was a conduit for the desires of the leviathans (at the time it was built), but once connected to the Crucible, the Catalyst also became a conduit for the will of the Crucible redesigners.

All the Catalyst knows about the Crucible redesign is from what the Reapers harvested. But we don't even know if the redeisgners were harvested, they might have chosen to kill themselves before that could happen. Essentially: The Catalyst might not even understand what's happened to him, and we're expecting him to explain.

Just something to think about.

I mostly agree with this, yet my reasoning of above still applies. It's the presentation that matters.

@Wayning_Star:
Vendetta says it on Thessia. "At some point, the design of the Crucible was changed to include the Citadel" or something similar.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 avril 2013 - 07:33 .

[Wayning_Star]

@Wayning_Star:
Vendetta says it on Thessia. "At some point, the design of the Crucible was changed to include the Citadel" or something similar.


[/quote]

You know, I'm starting to really HATE lore... I used to love lore...



maybe bioware uses too much of it and supplies less than they bargained for? Another poster stated that the next ME should have a lore master, as saying that ME1,2,3 really needed one bad. I've found that wiki is getting clobbered with head canon stuff as fans stop by there to deposit two or more cents.

[Ieldra]

Yes, indeed. The ME3 team - or rather the lead writer and the project director - appear to have lost their respect for the lore of their own universe and pissed on it at every turn. Odd to realize that I've never seen its like. Perhaps next time I get to see this (hopefully not for a long time), I'll know what a bad sign that is and run away fast.

The ME team needed someone who could hold the lore in their head. And slapped the writers every time they disregarded it for no better reason than being too lazy to ground their drama in the lore. Take Tamriel (the world of the TES games) as an example for how consistent lore can work for you. I return to that world often, even though the on-screen stories aren't that great, simply because it feels so real that stories almost seem to tell themselves as you read yet another snippet of in-world writing which connects seamlessly to several other things you've read in the course of playing.

[Harorrd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, indeed. The ME3 team - or rather the lead writer and the project director - appear to have lost their respect for the lore of their own universe and pissed on it at every turn. Odd to realize that I've never seen its like. Perhaps next time I get to see this (hopefully not for a long time), I'll know what a bad sign that is and run away fast.

The ME team needed someone who could hold the lore in their head. And slapped the writers every time they disregarded it for no better reason than being too lazy to ground their drama in the lore. Take Tamriel (the world of the TES games) as an example for how consistent lore can work for you. I return to that world often, even though the on-screen stories aren't that great, simply because it feels so real that stories almost seem to tell themselves as you read yet another snippet of in-world writing which connects seamlessly to several other things you've read in the course of playing.

Agree, there was so much passion in Mass effect 2, it was a pure joy imporing ME1 saves and see your actions play out with dialouge and secrets. Something terrible happend prior to the launch, something terrible i cant even fanthom. But whatever it was it was so terrible that it affected the ending to such a degree that EA won for the second year in a row the tite of the worst company in America, voted by almost 600 000 Americans .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, indeed. The ME3 team - or rather the lead writer and the project director - appear to have lost their respect for the lore of their own universe and pissed on it at every turn. Odd to realize that I've never seen its like. Perhaps next time I get to see this (hopefully not for a long time), I'll know what a bad sign that is and run away fast.

The ME team needed someone who could hold the lore in their head. And slapped the writers every time they disregarded it for no better reason than being too lazy to ground their drama in the lore. Take Tamriel (the world of the TES games) as an example for how consistent lore can work for you. I return to that world often, even though the on-screen stories aren't that great, simply because it feels so real that stories almost seem to tell themselves as you read yet another snippet of in-world writing which connects seamlessly to several other things you've read in the course of playing.

Yep, and to think of the sheer mass of lore in the conceptual invention in the ME games. I think more than most other games, at least with the ME and given resolution.( or should we call it 'gaming' resolution When folks runs out of lore and codex entries they tend to make ends meet to justify the means as speculation that detract, or distracts from the experience. Good for consternation on the BSN, but.... not immersion. imho

TES game/story stuff is wrought with perfectionists who'd never associate with lesser ME fans..lol Well at least with their story, as it's more about telling it than the 'action RPG' that ME games are, another opinion, off the cuff. But, to also include, some times too much lore can be tedious, in other words. But my brain didn't threaten to 'melt down' until argue..er discussion of the ME 3 game on the BSN.

[Wayning_Star]

Harorrd wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, indeed. The ME3 team - or rather the lead writer and the project director - appear to have lost their respect for the lore of their own universe and pissed on it at every turn. Odd to realize that I've never seen its like. Perhaps next time I get to see this (hopefully not for a long time), I'll know what a bad sign that is and run away fast.

The ME team needed someone who could hold the lore in their head. And slapped the writers every time they disregarded it for no better reason than being too lazy to ground their drama in the lore. Take Tamriel (the world of the TES games) as an example for how consistent lore can work for you. I return to that world often, even though the on-screen stories aren't that great, simply because it feels so real that stories almost seem to tell themselves as you read yet another snippet of in-world writing which connects seamlessly to several other things you've read in the course of playing.

Agree, there was so much passion in Mass effect 2, it was a pure joy imporing ME1 saves and see your actions play out with dialouge and secrets. Something terrible happend prior to the launch, something terrible i cant even fanthom. But whatever it was it was so terrible that it affected the ending to such a degree that EA won for the second year in a row the tite of the worst company in America, voted by almost 600 000 Americans .

well, I attribute that to negative spin on those who's choice didn't seem to matter AS MUCH as the next decider..lol

(dissing the endings seemed to be more of a DLC than say, any other DLC past or present.. )

[Obadiah]

EDI...
Taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future. Where synthetics can choose their own path without fear.

So I finally completed a game where the Quarians lost War for Rannoch, and got this line which I hadn't seen before in the Synthesis choice. Is this the only ending where the Synthetics feel completely free to create their own future without organic... er... oversight or "cooperation"?

[CosmicGnosis]

Obadiah wrote...

EDI...
Taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future. Where synthetics can choose their own path without fear.

So I finally completed a game where the Quarians lost War for Rannoch, and got this line which I hadn't seen before in the Synthesis choice. Is this the only ending where the Synthetics feel completely free to create their own future without organic... er... oversight or "cooperation"?

I haven't seen the quarian-only slide, but EDI apparently says something about organics no longer needing to fear their synthetic creations.

[JasonShepard]

Obadiah wrote...

EDI...
Taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future. Where synthetics can choose their own path without fear.

So I finally completed a game where the Quarians lost War for Rannoch, and got this line which I hadn't seen before in the Synthesis choice. Is this the only ending where the Synthetics feel completely free to create their own future without organic... er... oversight or "cooperation"?

Woah. I've seen that pic plenty of times with Control, but hadn't realised there was a Synthesis version.

If you take the view (I don't) that Geth-Quarian peace is short-lived without Synthesis, then I suppose the Geth end up completely free to create their own future in the Control ending too. Unless, you know, Reaper-Shep is ruling them with an iron fist...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I haven't seen the quarian-only slide, but EDI apparently says something about organics no longer needing to fear their synthetic creations.

Hmm... now I want to see these variations. To Youtube!

EDIT: Apparently Google considers Control and Synthesis to be interchangeable...

Modifié par JasonShepard, 13 avril 2013 - 09:43 .

[MetioricTest]

Quick question:

Do you Synthesis advocates believe that the Catalyst's technological singularity logic is accurate?

[PsyrenY]

MetioricTest wrote...

Quick question:

Do you Synthesis advocates believe that the Catalyst's technological singularity logic is accurate?

I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly do. Hell, the Geth were about to achieve it at the beginning of ME3.

[MetioricTest]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Quick question:

Do you Synthesis advocates believe that the Catalyst's technological singularity logic is accurate?

I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly do. Hell, the Geth were about to achieve it at the beginning of ME3.

Then how '****ed are we now if any beings live outside the Milky Way?

For billions of years, we've been trapped in these cycles. They would have reached that singularity. And now are on their way.

[PsyrenY]

Auld Wulf wrote...

2.) Lore says that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst.

A race of beings more intelligent than humans essentially chose to use the Catalyst for their agenda.

How do you know that said race didn't simply discover that the Crucible would have no way of functioning without the Catalyst? Perhaps they discovered that all the Reapers are being controlled by a central point, and that any attempts to broadcast a signal (whether destructive, dominatory, integrative) that affects all of them without destroying organics would require that level of precision?

The Catalyst itself tells you - the Crucible is little more than a power source. It is only combined with the Citadel and the Mass Relays - both of which are the Catalyst's creation - that it is capable of focusing the energy into the three endings.

[Obadiah]

JasonShepard wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

EDI...
Taking our first steps into a new and wonderful future. Where synthetics can choose their own path without fear.

So I finally completed a game where the Quarians lost War for Rannoch, and got this line which I hadn't seen before in the Synthesis choice. Is this the only ending where the Synthetics feel completely free to create their own future without organic... er... oversight or "cooperation"?

Woah. I've seen that pic plenty of times with Control, but hadn't realised there was a Synthesis version.

If you take the view (I don't) that Geth-Quarian peace is short-lived without Synthesis, then I suppose the Geth end up completely free to create their own future in the Control ending too. Unless, you know, Reaper-Shep is ruling them with an iron fist...

From my understanding of the Geth rebellion, the Geth never abdicated their core purpose to serve the Quarians - they just wanted to not be destroyed as well. This sort of falls in line with the Catalyst's statement:

Catalyst...
Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence. But these improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, they must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

So in the case of the Geth, the Geth evolved into an AI, came into conflict with the Quarians in the Geth Rebellion, and if the conflict is resolved in ME3 with peace between the Geth and Quarians, then Geth continue their original purpsoe to improve their creators beyond the original limitations placed on them. Though a bit of an oversimplification, they are willing servants in this case. With the Quarians out of the picture, they are free to chart their own course. I'm not really sure the Geth have a preference other that some resolution that allows their continued existence.

[EDIT] So, yeah, I guess in Paragon Control if the Quarians are dead then the Geth are completely free as well. The voice-over line there is probably different though.

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 avril 2013 - 11:08 .