9089 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

Well that was a useless YouTube trip. Couldn't find those specific options...

@MetioricTest:
Yes... and no. There's enough in-game evidence for me to believe that Organic-Synthetic relations are very tricky to get right. However, there's also in-game evidence that those relations can go right: Legion in general, EDI and Joker's relationship, Geth and Quarian peace (although we don't know how long that peace will last).

And I do agree with the logic that, once Synthetics have advanced far enough and overtaken everyone and are still advancing, it's impossible for Organics to catch up (without help from the Synthetics). Note that the Leviathans were never overtaken until they created the Catalyst (ironically, the Catalyst can be considered an example of the very thing that it is trying to prevent - although the Crucible demonstrates that Organics can still catch up with the Catalyst.) Sufficiently advanced Synthetics could potentially protect themselves from the Destroy function of the Catalyst.

The situation of Synthetics being so far ahead Organics technologically, and still advancing, can be considered a form of the Technological Singularity. In that situation, Organics will always be at the mercy of Synthetics, and if war broke out, the Organics would almost certainly be wiped out. So in that sense, then yes, I agree with the Catalyst's logic. (There's also JShepppp's thread in my sig that you might find interesting - if you haven't already read it.) (EDIT2: Ah - forgot that I'd already seen you in that thread.)

Synthesis technology levels the playing field by allowing Organics to advance at a similar rate to Synthetics. I just headcanon that, following my version of Control, Synthesis happens due to steady advancements from organic-synthetic co-operation.


Another side to all this - the main reason I won't pick Destroy is because it undoes Rannoch - which I consider to be the best chance for long term Organic-Synthetic peace we've yet had.

EDIT:

MetioricTest wrote...

Then how '****ed are we now if any beings live outside the Milky Way?

For billions of years, we've been trapped in these cycles. They would have reached that singularity. And now are on their way. 

Good point. I'm kinda expecting future Mass Effect games to explore why we've never had extra-galactic contact during all these cycles. I can see some good plots coming out of that.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 13 avril 2013 - 10:41 .

[PsyrenY]

MetioricTest wrote...

Then how '****ed are we now if any beings live outside the Milky Way?

For billions of years, we've been trapped in these cycles. They would have reached that singularity. And now are on their way.

If we chose Synthesis, we're not ****ed at all, because now we've reached it too.

If we didn't, we'd be screwed regardless, because without Synthesis organics can't get there in time. (Control may allow AIShep to protect the rest of us though. Destroy/Refusal, we're pretty much boned, but I don't like those two for a number of reasons anyway.)

[MetioricTest]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Then how '****ed are we now if any beings live outside the Milky Way?

For billions of years, we've been trapped in these cycles. They would have reached that singularity. And now are on their way.

If we chose Synthesis, we're not ****ed at all, because now we've reached it too.

If we didn't, we'd be screwed regardless, because without Synthesis organics can't get there in time. (Control may allow AIShep to protect the rest of us though. Destroy/Refusal, we're pretty much boned, but I don't like those two for a number of reasons anyway.)

That makes no sense. Synthesis doesn't make us invincable, it makes us the same as each other.

If synthetics so powerful they can obliterate all life turned up to olbiterate all life, we';d be ****ed. The Reapers only let a few live because they wanted to.

Now Super-reapers are on their way.

[PsyrenY]

I'm on another SP replay (recently grabbed Citadel and Omega) and I wanted to point out something interesting - even if you broker peace between the Geth and Quarians, Tali points out immediately afterward that conflict can still arise between them.

To get this convo, after she tells you about the Geth uploading themselves into Quarian suits to improve their immune systems, take the Renegade conversation option ("That sounds dangerous.") She will say (paraphrased) "There could be problems down the road. What if the Geth refuse to upload into Han'Gerrel's suit, since he was in favor of the war? Which party gets to make the decisions that will affect the suit as a whole? But as far as problems go, it beats the ones we had before."

These issues are potentially minor - well, not necessarily in Han'Gerrel (not to mention Xen's!) case. But it shows that lasting peace between the two factions is still a question mark, should you fail to choose Synthesis. If they're going to refuse to enhance HG because he was in favor of the war, how much more hatred would they hold for Xen, who was the architect of their near-destruction in the first place? And if they hate her, or demand punishment, what will the Quarians do? What will SHE do? She could even start trying to enslave Geth again, forcing them into her suit so she can share the benefits the other Quarians get, and/or exile herself from the fleet entirely.

[PsyrenY]

That makes no sense. Synthesis doesn't make us invincable, it makes us the same as each other.

It gives us minds with synthetic power. The kinds of minds that can reach a singularity ourselves. We wouldn't be invincible, but now we'd have a fighting chance.

Now Super-reapers are on their way.

If they are indeed on their way, none of the other endings would protect us either. Only Synthesis gives us a chance.

Control might help, but it would be Shep and the Reapers (and EDI/Geth) doing the fighting, while we are effectively cavemen throwing rocks and sticks. We could easily get caught in the middle and crushed.

Refuse we are wiped out immediately, long before they get here.

Destroy, we have no AI of our own left to defend ourselves.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 13 avril 2013 - 10:28 .

[MetioricTest]

Optimystic_X wrote...

It gives us minds with synthetic power. The kinds of minds that can reach a singularity ourselves. We wouldn't be invincible, but now we'd have a fighting chance.

bull****. It doesn't matter how much tech DNA you put on Joker. He can never beat Harbringer in a fistfight

If they are indeed on their way, none of the other endings would protect us either. Only Synthesis gives us a chance.

Control might help, but it would be Shep and the Reapers (and EDI/Geth) doing the fighting, while we are effectively cavemen throwing rocks and sticks. We could easily get caught in the middle and crushed.

Refuse we are wiped out immediately, long before they get here.

Destroy, we have no AI of our own left to defend ourselves.

True. Save for Control if live exists outside the Milky way and the Catalyst is right. we are screwed. I'm not trying to argue that Destroy or Reject will save us from it.

By my point is Synthesis won't save us from it either. It will just prolong it. And do you really want to fundamentally change every single living being in the galaxy without their consent to force them to become something they don't want to be, to protect them from something that's going to kill them anyway?

It's raping people to save their life, only for them to die anyway just as brutally.

I'd rather choose Destroy and let them be free. The Catalyst logic was short-sighted even if correct, and utterly idiotic if incorrect (which it is)

[Eckswhyzed]

Anyone comparing synthesis to rape clearly has no understanding of either concept.

[Obadiah]

JasonShepard wrote...

Well that was a useless YouTube trip. Couldn't find those specific options...
...

I tried earlier. Same problem. To verify the line I had to reload the save and replay it.

[PsyrenY]

MetioricTest wrote...


bull****. It doesn't matter how much tech DNA you put on Joker. He can never beat Harbringer in a fistfight

Fistfights don't win wars. Did you beat the Collectors with a fistfight? No, but Joker blew up their flagship. And he needed EDI's help to fight them. That's the point. Without AI, we're unable to fight on their terms.

MetioricTest wrote...
True. Save for Control if live exists outside the Milky way and the Catalyst is right. we are screwed. I'm not trying to argue that Destroy or Reject will save us from it.

By my point is Synthesis won't save us from it either. It will just prolong it. And do you really want to fundamentally change every single living being in the galaxy without their consent to force them to become something they don't want to be, to protect them from something that's going to kill them anyway?

It's raping people to save their life, only for them to die anyway just as brutally.

I'd rather choose Destroy and let them be free. The Catalyst logic was short-sighted even if correct, and utterly idiotic if incorrect (which it is)

Ah, we're back to the tired and stupid "Synthesis is Rape" meme. No it's not. Does Synthesis involve sexual assault? What metric are you using? "Change on behalf of another without consent?" ALL the endings do that, compadre.
 
Would EDI and the Geth choose Destroy, knowing that better options exist? Did you ask them? Do you even care?

Synthesis might save us, it might not. But if all of us have the mental capabilites of AI, plus our diversity and ability to work together, we will beat any AI that lacks those attributes.

[PsyrenY]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Anyone comparing synthesis to rape clearly has no understanding of either concept.

Thank you.

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Ieldra2

I don't agree with that.

There are smarter races than humanity out there. This is the first point of acceptance that you have to make, you have to acknowledge that we are not some ultimate state of evolution. After you've achieved that state of mind, you need to contemplate two things:

1.) The Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him.
2.) Lore says that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst.

A race of beings more intelligent than humans essentially chose to use the Catalyst for their agenda. The Catalyst is just a tool in getting that done. Just as the Catalyst was a tool for the leviathans (who're also smarter than us, despite their hubris). The Catalyst is not a good, it's a tool for people who are like gods, or think themselves to be. It's a tool for people who had giant ideas as to how the Universe should work.

Control and Synthesis were options introduced by the Crucible redesigners. That was something I had to learn for myself. In that case, then they are not the choice of the Catalyst, the Catalyst is just being used to initiate those choices, to make them real. The Catalyst is a conduit for the wills of others, essentially. Originally the Catalyst was a conduit for the desires of the leviathans (at the time it was built), but once connected to the Crucible, the Catalyst also became a conduit for the will of the Crucible redesigners.

All the Catalyst knows about the Crucible redesign is from what the Reapers harvested. But we don't even know if the redeisgners were harvested, they might have chosen to kill themselves before that could happen. Essentially: The Catalyst might not even understand what's happened to him, and we're expecting him to explain.

Just something to think about.

You'd have to define 'more intelligent'. Where in lore is it stated that the crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst? Just asking, as I missed it.

It was designed to include the Citadel, as the source of dark energy emissions would be used by the Citadel. I believe the original concept is to weaponize Dark Energy using the Citadel to turn Dark Energy into a foucsed weapon, and use the Mass Relays to transmit it.
The Citadel is the "Catalyst" of the Crucible. But the Catalyst A.I. .... I can't figure out where he actually fits into it all. If anything, he SHOULDN'T be part of the process.
Almost like he forced himself into the Crucible to make it harder for Shepard to pick what to do.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Anyone comparing synthesis to rape clearly has no understanding of either concept.

Indeed. It's like they think anything that somehow involves their body being affected qualifies for rape. By that logic, Destroy rapes all synthetics. It's nonsense, just a shock-value buzzword for folks with nothing worthwile to say.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 14 avril 2013 - 05:41 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

MetioricTest wrote...

Quick question:

Do you Synthesis advocates believe that the Catalyst's technological singularity logic is accurate?

Given what we know, it's not a certainty (we destroy the Reapers, afterall) but the probability remains high.

[Ieldra]

JasonShepard wrote...
The situation of Synthetics being so far ahead Organics technologically, and still advancing, can be considered a form of the Technological Singularity. In that situation, Organics will always be at the mercy of Synthetics, and if war broke out, the Organics would almost certainly be wiped out. So in that sense, then yes, I agree with the Catalyst's logic.

Exactly that. The problem is that this scenario doesn't have much narrative support. In a sense, it can't have much narrative support since it never happened since the leviathans' time, but you can easily imagine what might've happened - or what might still happen - if the geth finish their Dyson sphere and gain immeasurably in intelligence, and organics are prevented from catching up by their organic nature.  

Synthesis technology levels the playing field by allowing Organics to advance at a similar rate to Synthetics. I just headcanon that, following my version of Control, Synthesis happens due to steady advancements from organic-synthetic co-operation.

Yep, Control in order to promote Synthesis is a good headcanon scenario. Basically, the only reasons this possibility doesn't make Control my preferred in-game choice are that I don't get to see the Synthesis epilogue and I'm uncomfortable with the thematic vibe of the Control epilogue.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 avril 2013 - 01:52 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...
The situation of Synthetics being so far ahead Organics technologically, and still advancing, can be considered a form of the Technological Singularity. In that situation, Organics will always be at the mercy of Synthetics, and if war broke out, the Organics would almost certainly be wiped out. So in that sense, then yes, I agree with the Catalyst's logic.

Exactly that. The problem is that this scenario doesn't have much narrative support. In a sense, it can't have much narrative support since it never happened since the leviathans' time, but you can easily imagine what might've happened - or what might still happen - if the geth finish their Dyson sphere and gain immeasurably in intelligence, and organics are prevented from catching up by their organic nature.  

Synthesis technology levels the playing field by allowing Organics to advance at a similar rate to Synthetics. I just headcanon that, following my version of Control, Synthesis happens due to steady advancements from organic-synthetic co-operation.

Yep, Control in order to promote Synthesis is a good headcanon scenario. Basically, the only reasons this possibility doesn't make Control my preferred in-game choice are that I don't get to see the Synthesis epilogue and I'm uncomfortable with the thematic vibe of the Control epilogue.

I'm doubting the 'tech' singularity as too simplistic. I like to think of it as an organic singularity, in their dependence on technology as the nexus for evolution. Machines don't 'truly' evolve, organics are stuck with that regulation. I'd venture to guess this dependency regulates our defense against evolution, as that is the basis of organic requirement for technology to evolve.  Synthesis is just another form and function of organic genetic mutation as the result of that dependency.

Of course many over look the reality that the MEU would NOT exist without the technology, as old Earth would still be wondering why the tech went missing off Mars if that didn't happen? If we hadn't found it, the Earth wouldn't be involve in the MEU gambit.

Hey NASA, if you find stuff on Mars that even remotely resemble advance tech. Tell the Military its a weather balloon, OK?

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Ieldra2

I don't agree with that.

There are smarter races than humanity out there. This is the first point of acceptance that you have to make, you have to acknowledge that we are not some ultimate state of evolution. After you've achieved that state of mind, you need to contemplate two things:

1.) The Catalyst said that the Crucible changed him.
2.) Lore says that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst.

A race of beings more intelligent than humans essentially chose to use the Catalyst for their agenda. The Catalyst is just a tool in getting that done. Just as the Catalyst was a tool for the leviathans (who're also smarter than us, despite their hubris). The Catalyst is not a good, it's a tool for people who are like gods, or think themselves to be. It's a tool for people who had giant ideas as to how the Universe should work.

Control and Synthesis were options introduced by the Crucible redesigners. That was something I had to learn for myself. In that case, then they are not the choice of the Catalyst, the Catalyst is just being used to initiate those choices, to make them real. The Catalyst is a conduit for the wills of others, essentially. Originally the Catalyst was a conduit for the desires of the leviathans (at the time it was built), but once connected to the Crucible, the Catalyst also became a conduit for the will of the Crucible redesigners.

All the Catalyst knows about the Crucible redesign is from what the Reapers harvested. But we don't even know if the redeisgners were harvested, they might have chosen to kill themselves before that could happen. Essentially: The Catalyst might not even understand what's happened to him, and we're expecting him to explain.

Just something to think about.

You'd have to define 'more intelligent'. Where in lore is it stated that the crucible was redesigned to include the Catalyst? Just asking, as I missed it.

It was designed to include the Citadel, as the source of dark energy emissions would be used by the Citadel. I believe the original concept is to weaponize Dark Energy using the Citadel to turn Dark Energy into a foucsed weapon, and use the Mass Relays to transmit it.
The Citadel is the "Catalyst" of the Crucible. But the Catalyst A.I. .... I can't figure out where he actually fits into it all. If anything, he SHOULDN'T be part of the process.
Almost like he forced himself into the Crucible to make it harder for Shepard to pick what to do.

I don't really know about the 'dark energy' stuff in relation to the current set of codex/lore entries? I think the story had those attributes, or it was hinted at through meta game and online gossip of the ME original story lines. I've not read books or commix about the MEU tho, so I am out of that loop and missed that from there?

The catalyst, as far as I could tell was a result of the Leviathan devised intelligence that became self aware as sentient gone sapient. Took the Leviathan programming and ran with it. Apparently it built the Citadel as it's main operation base, possibly it's main server. The reaperships were it's actual intellect, via the harvested organics reside there as a mentality. But, the writers were fast and loose with the connection between the catalyst and it's reaperships. One minute, stating their independent nature, but the catalyst finally regards them as "it's", as if they're the catalyst as well as the citadel.

I've never been of the opinion that the catalyst cares either way what Shep does/choices picked. Its ambivalent as a machine. It is, however, easier to assume, as organics, its preference for synthesis, but that would still require the catalyst to cease it's function, be the same thing as destroying it..sooo ??? on that the catalyst would benefit from synthesis any more than it would not from destroy/control or even refuse that lets it 'go ahead' with the current cycle.

It seems as if refuse pisses it off, with that SO BE IT,  statement? (but since the refuse choice was EC related, the outburst from the cat seems hurried.)

[Ieldra]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I'm on another SP replay (recently grabbed Citadel and Omega) and I wanted to point out something interesting - even if you broker peace between the Geth and Quarians, Tali points out immediately afterward that conflict can still arise between them.

To get this convo, after she tells you about the Geth uploading themselves into Quarian suits to improve their immune systems, take the Renegade conversation option ("That sounds dangerous.") She will say (paraphrased) "There could be problems down the road. What if the Geth refuse to upload into Han'Gerrel's suit, since he was in favor of the war? Which party gets to make the decisions that will affect the suit as a whole? But as far as problems go, it beats the ones we had before."

These issues are potentially minor - well, not necessarily in Han'Gerrel (not to mention Xen's!) case. But it shows that lasting peace between the two factions is still a question mark, should you fail to choose Synthesis. If they're going to refuse to enhance HG because he was in favor of the war, how much more hatred would they hold for Xen, who was the architect of their near-destruction in the first place? And if they hate her, or demand punishment, what will the Quarians do? What will SHE do? She could even start trying to enslave Geth again, forcing them into her suit so she can share the benefits the other Quarians get, and/or exile herself from the fleet entirely.

While this illustrates a certain kind of problem that could surface after the war, it's not necessarily restricted to non-Synthesis scenarios. If you choose Synthesis, then the quarians will have the ability to adapt themselves faster, but resentment about what happened in the part might still linger and find another outlet. The only difference is that post-Synthesis, such conflicts would not have greater consequences because organics can keep up with synthetics. Usually, co-existence is chosen because it's more beneficial to both parties than conflict. The less the power difference, the more costly conflict becomes and the more benefits can be gained by two sides complementing each other.  

Anyway, I don't think the geth have that kind of resentment in them in the first place. I find it much more likely that some quarians still don't trust the geth, and don't want them inside their suits because hey, who knows what they might do. 

I think this scenario illustrates the benefits of Synthesis in a different way: it shows that synthetics are superior to organics in several important ways, and that even in a relatively young synthetic species like the geth. This situation foreshadows the technological singularity, which may make organics obsolete and synthetics dominant, leading to the risk of extinction as the Catalyst predicted.

[Xilizhra]

Here's a quandary I'm in. I love Synthesis, at least the ending. It's fascinating and seems to be the best overall outcome. However... I have a great deal of difficulty choosing it in-character, because while I don't think the Catalyst is lying, it doesn't understand organics, and I don't have any IC reason to believe that its view on Synthesis being new and improved will be any more accurate to organics than the Reapers being preservation. So picking Synthesis felt ungenuine.

Also, the whole nanomachines thing makes no sense, as it'd be far too much mass to spread around. So I think it must be something else.

[Obadiah]

For my Shepard to pick it, he did on my last playthrough, he had to embrace the concepts of Synthesis before the Catalyst confrontation. I just head-cannoned that with all the tech implants and gene therapy, he did, and so Synthesis did not seem like that huge a step.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Here's a quandary I'm in. I love Synthesis, at least the ending. It's fascinating and seems to be the best overall outcome. However... I have a great deal of difficulty choosing it in-character, because while I don't think the Catalyst is lying, it doesn't understand organics, and I don't have any IC reason to believe that its view on Synthesis being new and improved will be any more accurate to organics than the Reapers being preservation. So picking Synthesis felt ungenuine.

I can see this as a problem. I just ignore it. Shepard is out of character several times in this conversation through options that should've been there but aren't. So while Control appears more genuinde, I can still choose Synthesis.
Also my main Shepard has always found an organic/synthetic symbiosis desirable, even before the Catalyst spoke about it. Synthesis was really what he'd always thought the future should be like. So for him at least, choosing Synthesis is genuinely IC. Most of the others choose Control anyway.

Also, the whole nanomachines thing makes no sense, as it'd be far too much mass to spread around. So I think it must be something else.

Self-replicating nano-machines, it is. The Crucible only sends a seed cluster, most of the stuff will be made by self-replication at the place of application.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 avril 2013 - 02:07 .

[Xilizhra]

I can see this as a problem. I just ignore it. Shepard is out of character several times in this conversation through options that should've been there but aren't. So while Control appears more genuinde, I can still choose Synthesis.

I interpret that as being largely due to Shepard's near-death at the time, but what options do you want to have be there? Do you then imagine them being there?

Self-replicating nano-machines, it is. The Crucible only sends a seed cluster, most of the stuff will be made by self-replication at the place of application.

What is the range on these things? You'd need to send... I don't know, but not all that many nanites per mass relay, and then they'd need to spread across whole star clusters by themselves? How? How does this reconcile with what we see of the retreat of the Reapers?

[Auld Wulf]

We're talking Reaper/Leviathan tech, here. They could very well have mass effect capable nanobots. Just because we can't do something, that's not a good reason to imagine that an ancient civilisation that's been around for so long that it just makes us look like a hiccup in the lifespan of the Universe can't.

[Xilizhra]

Auld Wulf wrote...

We're talking Reaper/Leviathan tech, here. They could very well have mass effect capable nanobots. Just because we can't do something, that's not a good reason to imagine that an ancient civilisation that's been around for so long that it just makes us look like a hiccup in the lifespan of the Universe can't.

It's possible, although Leviathan tech is what built the mass relays, and the Reapers don't seem to have advanced, really, thereafter. Also, how would a nanite be able to fit mass effect technology onto it? I'm uncertain if it's physically possible.

[Auld Wulf]

My answer here is: You'd have to ask the Leviathans.

I guess they could cluster together to make it work, each holding different components. So each nanobot cluster creates a mass effect drive, since not all nanobots would have to be uniform. But essentially this is like Star Trek's Heisenberg Compensators.

[Xilizhra]

Right... but after that, then you have to give them the ability to fiddle with organic DNA to make Synthesis work. Also give them the ability to self-replicate. That's a hell of a lot to put into a package that small.