9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Auld, don´t compare us to dinosaurs. The fact is we are intelligent, they had just instinct as far as we know, and if it is possible we´ll go to the stars. Anyway, my problems with synthesis are along the lines that it´s forced on every living creature, not that I´m against getting artificially upgraded. As I´ve said before, I went with Sarif. There are also several hints that Synthesis changes the way people think at the base, or Javik would have killed himself as soon as he saw what had happened to him. Wreav went peaceful because he now shines green in the dark so forgets all his resentment? I doubt it. So the way I see it, it´s not just getting your body upgraded, it´s changing who you are at your very base, at the behest of a thing that thought killing all intelligent life (end result in millions of years, planets with the same future as dinosaurs) with synthetics was the solution to intelligent life being killed by synthetics.

I don´t agree with the synthetic problem either. They are so different that conflict is very unlikely, they need very different things than organics, so there are no clashes foreseeable. Geth? Quarians panicked, after they stopped to think they just wanted to mind their own bussiness (and their tech is along the lines of the rest of the galaxy, thermal clips aside). Javiks cycle? Kind of the same. The only conflict we know of that wasn´t an accident or reaction to organic fear against AIs is Starbrat itself.

And about the change itself, what happens with viruses and bacteria? Are they left behind, or do they upgrade too? Can a virus mutate so that it will attack the techorganic parts that are now common to EVERY living being? Wouldn´t be much of a problem if each species were upgraded differently, but that doesn´t look to be the case. The reason there´s variety in nature is so all the eggs aren´t in the same basket, but synthesis does just that. Change for the sake of change is not an advancement.

[Ieldra]

Nerevar-as wrote...
Auld, don´t compare us to dinosaurs. The fact is we are intelligent, they had just instinct as far as we know, and if it is possible we´ll go to the stars.

I believe his point was that we have the ability to survive, but that "stupid prejudices" may prevent us from using it. If we can infer that we'll only survive if we change ourselves, but won't do it because "we must not interfere with natural evolution", then we're as intelligent as the dinosaurs in this matter, and the fact we're significantly smarter than the dinosaurs in *other* things doesn't matter.

Anyway, my problems with synthesis are along the lines that it´s forced on every living creature, not that I´m against getting artificially upgraded.

I believe this is the only valid reason for rejection. If someone says "I won't make this choice for a fundamental change for all organic life in the galaxy", then that's a position I understand, and that I make a different decision has more to do with the unique circumstances I see as justifying rather than seeing nothing wrong with it. 

There are also several hints that Synthesis changes the way people think at the base, or Javik would have killed himself as soon as he saw what had happened to him. Wreav went peaceful because he now shines green in the dark so forgets all his resentment? I doubt it. So the way I see it, it´s not just getting your body upgraded, it´s changing who you are at your very base, at the behest of a thing that thought killing all intelligent life (end result in millions of years, planets with the same future as dinosaurs) with synthetics was the solution to intelligent life being killed by synthetics.

Regardless of the ending choice, the EC does not make any distinction between "Wreav or Wrex",
only about "genophage cured" and possibly about "Bakara alive" (don't recall exactly).  Generally, in the Synthesis epilogue, like in the others, you see
characters in contexts that feel appropriate for them, so I think Wreav
was the result of "We don't want to add yet another branch to the already overly complex Tuchanka outcomes". If they actually intended the implication that Synthesis changes personalities, we would know it.

I don´t agree with the synthetic problem either. They are so different that conflict is very unlikely, they need very different things than organics, so there are no clashes foreseeable. Geth? Quarians panicked, after they stopped to think they just wanted to mind their own bussiness (and their tech is along the lines of the rest of the galaxy, thermal clips aside). Javiks cycle? Kind of the same. The only conflict we know of that wasn´t an accident or reaction to organic fear against AIs is Starbrat itself.

The organic/synthetic problem is is actually a topic among RL futurists. It's not about instrinsic enmity, it's about out-competing organics in the evolutionary race. It's not "there will always be conflict", but "there will sometimes be conflict, and because synthetics advance faster, they will always win". This can result in organics becoming sidelined, a lost branch of evolution only present on a few worlds which have nothing of interest for the dominant life form, if not necessarily completely extinct.

And about the change itself, what happens with viruses and bacteria? Are they left behind, or do they upgrade too? Can a virus mutate so that it will attack the techorganic parts that are now common to EVERY living being? Wouldn´t be much of a problem if each species were upgraded differently, but that doesn´t look to be the case. The reason there´s variety in nature is so all the eggs aren´t in the same basket, but synthesis does just that. Change for the sake of change is not an advancement.

We already are "all the same" on the level addressed by the Synthesis: we are all based on DNA and the same set of about 25 amino acids. Are there bacteria that attack these? I don't know but it doesn't appear to be a large-scale problem. So, why should it become one if our common biochemistry is extended?

[jtav]

Ieldra, minor correction. The EC does distinguish between Wrex and Wreav. If you cure the genophage in Destroy/Control, Wreav raises an army, either for conquest or civil war against Bakara.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, minor correction. The EC does distinguish between Wrex and Wreav. If you cure the genophage in Destroy/Control, Wreav raises an army, either for conquest or civil war against Bakara.

I recall my surprise when getting the same "krogan army" slide with Wrex alive as I got with Wreav in a game where I chose (Paragon) Control. Can it be that the slides are the same, only the interpretation is different?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 juin 2013 - 12:49 .

[jtav]

I...have never gotten that. It's always been the rebuilding slide.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I...have never gotten that. It's always been the rebuilding slide.

IIRC, I got both. I'll have to test that, but I don't have many games where I cured the genophage.

Edit:
Here's proof:


Open the full text of the publisher's comment and you'll see Wrex mentioned. Then watch the video from about 1:17:00.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 juin 2013 - 01:35 .

[JasonShepard]

Are we discussing the slide with Wrex and Grunt in an Alliance Shuttle-craft, looking out upon thousands of celebrating Krogan? Because I always took that as a "Victorious Return"...

[Nerevar-as]

Ieldra2 wrote...
We already are "all the same" on the level addressed by the Synthesis: we are all based on DNA and the same set of about 25 amino acids. Are there bacteria that attack these? I don't know but it doesn't appear to be a large-scale problem. So, why should it become one if our common biochemistry is extended?

I think there are viruses that cause cancer, so they kind of attack DNA. But the point I wanted to make is that, in universe, there are biochemical barriers. Human illnesses shouldn´t affect salarians or asari, for instance (not to mention turians & quarians, whose aminoacids have different quirality). But now all living beings have the techorganic tissues in common (lets not get in how DNA can be made to code working semiorganic circuitry...), so a virus that would target that would target every living being in the galaxy. As you say, we are "all the same", that´s why we used to and can still have big trouble with plagues. In post Synthesis ME, the risk is for everything, AIs included, from a single source.

Back to watching reactions to "The Rains of Castamere"...

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 03 juin 2013 - 01:55 .

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I...have never gotten that. It's always been the rebuilding slide.

IIRC, I got both. I'll have to test that, but I don't have many games where I cured the genophage.

Edit:
Here's proof:


Open the full text of the publisher's comment and you'll see Wrex mentioned. Then watch the video from about 1:17:00.

I took it as context. I mean, they're Krogan. Just like the Turians, they're going to raise a strong army. But because of Wrex, Wreav, and Bakara that army's impact on the galaxy is different.

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 juin 2013 - 12:07 .

[jtav]

That wasn't what I was referring to, but the shot of a krogan with gun raised, surrounded by an army. That's Wreav only, and only in Destroy/Control.

[Auld Wulf]

The problem with krogan men (unlike krogan women) is that they never seem to really mature beyond childhood in certain ways, as such their motivations are like that. With Synthesis, the most likely reason they don't attack is very simple. It's distinctly inkrogan (is that the correct vernacular?) to fear anything, as such, the krogans likely accept all incoming thoughts/emotions within the Synthesis-created galactic communication array thingie.

Now, here's the thing. No, pure fear would likely not stop a krogan from attacking someone. However, there are thoughts and feelings that might. "Why are you doing this? I thought you were cool." That level of crushing disappointment could overwhelm a krogan and alter their motivations. If a krogan believed that everyone was saddened and disappointed by their actions, then I think they wouldn't go with those actions.

See, I got this from both Wrex and Grunt. Grunt especially. If you tell Grunt that you're disappointed with his current line of thinking, he sounds... sad. He really does. He pretty much says that he's trying to find himself and become a better krogan to please Shepard. There's definitely a factor of that. The krogans want desperately to be cool. That might sound silly, but we can't anthropomorphise them by our adult standards. Krogan men don't work like we do.

They want to be heroes, they want to be awesome, they want to overcome all odds. The only problem there is that they don't understand the ramifications of their actions due to a lack of maturity within the men, but they understand feelings. And I believe that a huge wave of disappointment from the galactic community would remotivate them.

Krogan men might not be motivated by feeling fear, but I believe they are by shame.

Edit: And I don't mean to be insulting to Wrex fans with this, in case anyone takes it that way. The thing is is that I see Wrex as being more like Bakara -- more level-headed and reasonable, which is very unusual for a krogan bloke. Grunt, however, I see as being very much representative of the average krogan male. And being cool was very, very important to him. He was and is a boy playing toy soldiers, and that's how I feel the krogan men are, in general, with only rare exceptions like Wrex.

So, ultimately, I believe that shame would motivate them with how their minds work. For Wrex and the krogan women, it would be more words and reason. To be honest, in a Synthesis future I can see the krogan peoples becoming a Matriarchy. It would make sense.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 05 juin 2013 - 05:49 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 I think the krogan's interests simply shift, post-Sync.

If you sabotage the genophage cure, they'll die in Destroy and Control. Clearly, they never let go of their old (violent) ways.

This does not happen in Sync, though. There's no krogan cultural rennassaince (sp?) slide, but there is a slide showing a krogan female with a baby, suggesting they are making advancements rather than senselessly waging wars.

Thing is, the krogan stagnated technologically after a certain point. After it made their lives too "easy" and liveable, they abandoned it in favor of arms and armor, which they used to continually fight each other in search of challenge. Then came the salarians who reinforced this culture by uplifting them as war-fighters against the rachni.

The reason they struggle to shift their focus back to more practical things (such as agriculture and medicine, as Wrex has them do) is because they lag so far behind in those things -- part of the reason why you never see krogan trying to cure their disease. However, I believe with what they're granted by Sync, it becomes easier for them to do that.

JMO, ofc!

[Obadiah]

I think, going through the Krogan ruins, that that the Krogan aren't even aware of their own past fully.

I have a theory that their own violent disposition is more cultural than biological. It is possible that they had the nuclear war that resulted in the ruins we see in ME2 and ME3, and the Korgan that remained and ascended to power in the aftermath were the violent extremists. That's basically the culture the rest were raised in when the Salarians found and uplifted them.

You can hear in conversations all over the Mass Effect trilogy that the Krogan will not simply resort to violence to resolve a dispute.

With no Genophage cure, post Synthesis or any other ending they'll simply be pushed into a more extreme position.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 juin 2013 - 03:57 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

III.2 The singularity and the geth

In this section I would like to show that the geth are on their way to becoming the kind of synthetic which would trigger a technological singularity to far surpass organics in power and intelligence.

Speaking with Legion in ME2 reveals that the geth are building a megastructure he compares to a Dyson sphere (changed into "Dyson Swarm" in ME3 to be more compatible with physics), but would be more correctly named a Matrioshka brain (see above). We also know that geth become more intelligent in bigger groups. This megastructure would be a home to all geth, who would become immeasurably more intelligent as a result of their close proximity. Legion says that the outcome of that process and the attributes of the entity that will emerge from it is impossible to predict. In other words, this is a singularity event.

On the physical level, we have already witnessed that geth can build more platforms from raw materials. On Tali's loyalty mission, we are informed that the geth have probably built more of themselves in the time since the "accident". While this is not exactly "building from raw materials", apparently the materials available on the Alarei were enough to assemble some fifty some geth platforms. They did that in a rather short time as well. This means that geth platforms, while not being self-replicating as individual platforms, are self-replicating as a group. This is, of course, very plausible since otherwise, no new geth platforms would have come into existence after the Morning War 300 years ago, and anyway it is unlikely that a species as advanced as the geth are unable to build more of themselves.

I conclude that letting the geth finish their megastructure will very likely result in the scenario the Catalyst seeks to prevent. In other words, it is foreshadowed in the story of ME2 and ME3 and does not come out of nowhere. It only requires that you look closely.

I agree with this analysis, and I think that people often forget about the geth Dyson sphere and its implications. However, what do you think will happen to the geth in a Rannoch peace scenario? Not only are they more intelligent as individuals, they are also physically merging with quarians. If this process continues in a Control future, do you think the quarians and geth will become inextricably linked?

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

III.2 The singularity and the geth

In this section I would like to show that the geth are on their way to becoming the kind of synthetic which would trigger a technological singularity to far surpass organics in power and intelligence.

Speaking with Legion in ME2 reveals that the geth are building a megastructure he compares to a Dyson sphere (changed into "Dyson Swarm" in ME3 to be more compatible with physics), but would be more correctly named a Matrioshka brain (see above). We also know that geth become more intelligent in bigger groups. This megastructure would be a home to all geth, who would become immeasurably more intelligent as a result of their close proximity. Legion says that the outcome of that process and the attributes of the entity that will emerge from it is impossible to predict. In other words, this is a singularity event.

On the physical level, we have already witnessed that geth can build more platforms from raw materials. On Tali's loyalty mission, we are informed that the geth have probably built more of themselves in the time since the "accident". While this is not exactly "building from raw materials", apparently the materials available on the Alarei were enough to assemble some fifty some geth platforms. They did that in a rather short time as well. This means that geth platforms, while not being self-replicating as individual platforms, are self-replicating as a group. This is, of course, very plausible since otherwise, no new geth platforms would have come into existence after the Morning War 300 years ago, and anyway it is unlikely that a species as advanced as the geth are unable to build more of themselves.

I conclude that letting the geth finish their megastructure will very likely result in the scenario the Catalyst seeks to prevent. In other words, it is foreshadowed in the story of ME2 and ME3 and does not come out of nowhere. It only requires that you look closely.

I agree with this analysis, and I think that people often forget about the geth Dyson sphere and its implications. However, what do you think will happen to the geth in a Rannoch peace scenario? Not only are they more intelligent as individuals, they are also physically merging with quarians. If this process continues in a Control future, do you think the quarians and geth will become inextricably linked?

It is possible. In fact, the geth/quarian link is one of the most convincing arguments for a "Control to Synthesis" scenario. For no reason I can discern, however, the Control epilogue shows the geth and the quarians as separate, and the quarians still with masks. I think Control was intended as a "synthetic ascendance" scenario, just as Destroy was inteded as an "organic dominion" scenario, represented symbolically by Shepard who lose their organic aspect in the former and their synthetic aspect in the latter.    

[Ieldra]

With this, I'll post my answer to the question "Why do people hate Synthesis?" which was recently asked in this thread.

Let me first say that IMO there can be no doubt that Synthesis is a good choice.  It is my favorite choice because it's the only one with a theme of radical advancement, of overcoming significant limitations of the human condition. Since I choose for the outcome, I have no problem with making the choice, but nonetheless Synthesis as an ending choice specifically for the story of Mass Effect has considerable problems. I'll go into them one by one:

The rationale for Synthesis
That the Catalyst's logic has something to speak for it has been shown in considerable depth in JShepppp's fantastic thread Why the Catalyst's logic is right.. Nonetheless, the scenario remains a hypothesis, plausible as it is in itself, hanging out there in empty space,  insufficiently supported by the story. In fact, if you make peace on Rannoch, the narrative weight shifts to "We can solve this with no external help. Now get out, Reapers."  The "small Synthesis" that happens with the quarians and the geth actually invalidates the necessity of the greater Synthesis of the Crucible. It does not invalidate its desirability, but being desirable alone is not usually seen as sufficient to outweigh the downside of changing all life in the galaxy without any input from those affected. I think this is the greatest storytelling flaw of the ME trilogy, and that the writers didn't spot this glaring inconsistency has me scratching my head in confusion even 18 months after ME3 came out. There's nothing I'd like to speak to the lead writers more about than this. 

The implemention of Synthesis
Space Magic! Fantasy! Salvation by "Soul Cannon!" That I, as one of the most outspoken Synthesis supporters on BSN, must admit that these accusations are completely justified is painful. I have outlined the main problem in an extra thread named The Mass Effect trilogy and the descent from science into mysticism. The "scientific" rationalization for Synthesis given by the Catalyst is at least in part complete bogus, even by the established standards of the MEU, and the fact that it suggests things like "sacrificing your soul leads to salvation" as a solution in a science-fiction universe that had been at least semi-hard is insulting to any science fiction fan. Do we now have to integrate gods and souls into our ME universe? Completely ludicrous concepts of evolution? I have problems with many parts of the MEU, but for this I feel that slapping the responsible writer would be an appropriate response.

The morality of Synthesis
There is one tangible moral downside to Synthesis: can you take informed responsibility for the choice to make a fundamental change to all life in the galaxy? Well, you can't, and Synthesis remains a viable choice only because the other choices have a similar problem. Nonetheless, it is the ultimate "high risk, high gain" scenario. While I personally find the outcome worth the price, rejecting Synthesis because of that is completely plausible.
However, it is the intangibles - which I don't subscribe to - that move some people's reaction from simple rejection into visceral hate. There is a moral intuition saying that the stuff of life should remain inaccessible to human artifice, and the story of ME takes a fairly traditionalist stance in this. Just consider Cerberus and how everyone making such changes turns out evil or mad,  or ultimately goes back on older decisions. See how it is never considered that the genophage may actually be good for the krogan as a measure of population control. There is also an intuition that the natural is sacrosanct, and in that, too, the story of ME takes an increasingly traditionalist stance as we go from ME1 through ME2 to ME3. Consider how Shepard is never given the opportunity to appreciate their resurrection and their synthetic upgrades. You can express existential problems, or you can say it doesn't matter, but you can't say "I prefer the way I am now."
And lastly, apart from Shepard the individual, we have one life form where the organic and the synthetic are combined. The Reapers. Not exactly a shining example of what most people would want to be, and even if it is completely clear from the presentation that Synthesis will result in nothing like that, this association still has narrative weight.
These intangibles are completely irrelevant for me, pure aesthetic considerations, not moral ones. Which is why I can choose Synthesis. Nonetheless, for many people they are not irrelevant, and consequently they feel Synthesis is repulsive.  

Abomination aesthetic and the Reapers' association with Synthesis
The games condition us to hate the Reapers. They're presented not just as evil, but as an offense against everything that's "good and right". The Reaper minions are presented as a perversion of a healthy organic body which we experience as a physical state of grace, its opposite being the embodiment of sickness we are conditioned by our biology to keep away from. The presentation goes out of its way to make the Reaper minions as repulsive as possible, their methods as needlessly cruel as possible, their attitude as reprehensive as possible. They are made to be hated, destined to be unmade, eradicated like the plague their appearance suggests they carry. Yet, in Synthesis we do not only forgive all they've done but integrate them into civilization. Thus, for those susceptible to the effects of the presentation, choosing Synthesis can feel like eating a pile of sh*t, and to add insult to injury, the entity who calls us to Synthesize everything is the leader of the faction we've been conditioned to hate and spent three games fighting against.
Since I have a long-standing passionate hate for the use of abomination aesthetic to underscore evil, I ignore much of that, but for many people who aren't as conscious, or as pre-emptively critical, of this, to call Synthesis a hard sell is an epic understatement, and it remains a hard sell even if you only consider the tangible evils you need to forgive. I recall when the first script was leaked, the third option was "Shepard becomes one with the Reapers". My instant reaction was "You can't be serious."
  
The narrative inconsistency of Synthesis
As I've outlined previously, the ME trilogy takes a fairly traditionist stance towards the human condition. At significant points in the story, you can even identify a strong anti-transhumanist vibe, which gets stronger as we move from ME1 through ME2 to ME3, where the traditionalism becomes almost suffocating for a anti-traditionalist radical like me. An outcome like Synthesis - it's the kind of outcome I always wanted to exist as an option at the end of the trilogy, and I'm extremely glad that it does exist, but as the story progressed, I was increasingly convinced I wouldn't get it. In fact, the whole ending scenario appears to turn everything that came before on its head.

So...in the end I choose Synthesis because I choose for the outcome, but it takes considerable effort to integrate Synthesis into the story. That the OP of this thread, which attempts to do that, had to be downsized because it broke the 64k post size limit is a testament to the amount of effort it takes. Nonetheless, it was worth it since together with the EC, it saved the trilogy for me.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 août 2013 - 02:07 .

[Seival]

Just finished new picture about Synthesis



1920x1080: http://img822.images...2/3531/sjgf.jpg

[Ieldra]

Hmm....what makes this different from a Control scenario?

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm....what makes this different from a Control scenario?

The point is that Synthesis scenario's green effects are only symbolical. All the changes are internal. So, I used green eyes as the only symbolical part and made other things look common.

That was not just a fan-art, but also a little reminder. In case if developers will choose inevitable Synthesis as a way to make a sequel, they don't actually have to make everything glowing in green color or put special "wire" effect upon skin of each and every living being.
 
...Synthesis was always about internal changes, not external ones.

[BSpud]

Seival, would you paint the side of my van?

[Ieldra]

Nice job of not reading my post, Fandango. Here I go, writing a long post about why people hate Synthesis, including that you can't really take informed responsibility for a choice to fundamentally change all life in the galaxy, and that it's only because the other choices have similar problems that it remains an option you can consider from a moral point of view. And you answer as if I had just made a long post defending the option.

Well, since you didn't read it: the post you quoted wasn't defending Synthesis, but if you want, I can do that too:

Just like in the other two choices, no one gave me the authority. I take ultimate responsibility because I am the one with all the relevant information and because I am standing at the fulcrum of events, and I must make choose one option or let galactic civilization be destroyed. I am morally obliged to make the decision I consider the best for the future of galactic civilization, taking into account everything I have come to know. I am making the decision by virtue of being the one who made it to encounter the Catalyst.

If the galaxy in my continuity didn't want something like Synthesis, they should have made someone else the tip of the spear in the fight against the Reapers. I was rarely given the opportunity to roleplay it, but Cyrus Shepard (my main) never made a secret of his belief that intelligent life wouldn't survive without significant improvement in their physical nature, and that the integration of synthetic and organic life was the way into a better future.

Yes, I would've preferred to give everyone a choice about it. I could've chosen Control and imagine that Control!Shep will lead the galaxy towards Synthesis at a more organic pace and with the option for those who didn't want it to be left behind. In pure roleplaying terms, that would probably have been better. Except that Control has this theme of "we need a god-analogue to guide us into the future", and I don't like that. So I made a choice for the outcome.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 août 2013 - 08:22 .

[Ieldra]

One more thing:

You can think of the decision in terms of what you're sacrificing: in Destroy, you're sacrificing a complete domain of life. In Control, you reduce everyone's autonomy by setting up a god-analogue to rule over the galaxy. In Synthesis, you sacrifice the biochemical integrity of organic life. I consider the latter a much more acceptable one.