9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, if I may contradict you on a tangential point, Control is a sacrifice because Shepalyst is now isolated. There are no other minds on its level. If it feels the lack, its basically been condemned to hell for the greater good. If it doesn't something vital has been lost.

What if it feels the lack, but other things make up for it? I'm reminded of the often-used "immortality (alone) is hell" argument I don't subscribe to. Yes, you acquire a perpective you cannot share with (other) humans, but is that really so bad that you wouldn't want that kind of existence? For me this sounds too much like "We cannot have immortality, so we try to make a virtue of it and pretend we shouldn't even want it because it's terrible". I've seen so much glorification of human limitations and dependencies in stories - something I usually file away under "traditionalist crap" - that I'm thoroughly sick of it.

I understand your argument and I won't deny that your perspective has merit, but I think it's perfectly possible to have a different perspective, even as a human. I agree with CrutchCricket on this: the universe has too much to offer to stay bound to human dependencies. And if it really becomes unbearable, there are measures to change that state of things. It's not that you cannot change yourself into something else if you want.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 août 2013 - 03:32 .

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seival wrote...
Synthesis is the ending which caused the most intense arguing, I think everyone agree with that. There are a lot of things devs didn't tell us. There are a lot of things people are discussing regarding the Synthesis. This ending is the most intriguing no matter if you support it or not... Why? Because both haters and supporters ask for more details and always up to imagine and share another theory or just thoughts about Synthesis.

And now, think about this. Is any other ending at least as half intriguing as Synthesis? There is nothing special going on after Control, Destroy, or Refusal.

Control, Destroy, and Refusal have zero potential for a truly intriguing story. Even prequel about First Contact War looks more intriguing compared to sequels based on these.

I guess different people find different things intriguing, but you're correct that the post-Synthesis future is likely to be exotic compared to the others. That's part of the appeal at least for me.

Control offers some intriguing possibilities as well but I think Destroy has been narratively shortchanged by the hint that the relays can be rebuilt. If they remained destroyed in Destroy, then you could have a future infused with a renewed spirit of exploration unlike anything Synthesis or Control could offer. As it is, it's a boring "everything goes back to pre-Reaper normal only minus the geth" scenario.

Synthesized MEU may become a completely unique story. Something we've never seen before. Something truly amazing.

If I could only trust the writers to write that story.

Yes, that's the right word - exotic.

New ME game based on Synthesis will shine among other sci-fi stories like The Last of Us among all of those other boring zombie tales. Why? Because both have unique non-standard and very interesting features that can't be found anywhere else... I have no doubts BioWare writers can make great Synthesis-based story. And considering the fact that next ME game will use all of those modern next-gen features... such story and its execution would be just amazing.

Modifié par Seival, 08 août 2013 - 03:54 .

[KaiserShep]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra, if I may contradict you on a tangential point, Control is a sacrifice because Shepalyst is now isolated. There are no other minds on its level. If it feels the lack, its basically been condemned to hell for the greater good. If it doesn't something vital has been lost.

This is one of the big reasons why I would never pick control. I find immortality to be tantamount to damnation, provided that my mind/personality actually remained intact. If not, then I pretty much died, and was replaced by a pale facsimile. Of course, it may not seem so bad to some, and I guess I can understand, but I'd rather disappear into oblivion myself.

[LiL Reapur]

KaiserShep wrote...

jtav wrote...

Ieldra, if I may contradict you on a tangential point, Control is a sacrifice because Shepalyst is now isolated. There are no other minds on its level. If it feels the lack, its basically been condemned to hell for the greater good. If it doesn't something vital has been lost.

This is one of the big reasons why I would never pick control. I find immortality to be tantamount to damnation, provided that my mind/personality actually remained intact. If not, then I pretty much died, and was replaced by a pale facsimile. Of course, it may not seem so bad to some, and I guess I can understand, but I'd rather disappear into oblivion myself.

I would choose immortality, seems better than dying IMO even if your alone you still have power to sway civilization towards the right path rather then being dead and letting the future generations run astray.

[KaiserShep]

LiL Reapur wrote...

I would choose immortality, seems better than dying IMO even if your alone you still have power to sway civilization towards the right path rather then being dead and letting the future generations run astray.

That's fine, but I have no interest in guiding civilization down a path that I alone see fit. I tend to reject god-like figures of any sort, so I definitely would not want to become one.

[jontepwn]

KaiserShep wrote...

LiL Reapur wrote...

I would choose immortality, seems better than dying IMO even if your alone you still have power to sway civilization towards the right path rather then being dead and letting the future generations run astray.

That's fine, but I have no interest in guiding civilization down a path that I alone see fit. I tend to reject god-like figures of any sort, so I definitely would not want to become one.

Thing is, the endings of ME3 are sufficiently open-ended (intentionally so) that you can personally decide for yourself what kind of Shepard-God he is if you pick Control.

With the power of headcanon, maybe your Shepard repairs the relays and burned worlds, then makes the Reaper retreat to dark space to lie dormant for the rest of time? Or fly all Reapers into the sun?

By the power of the headcanon bestowed upon you by Bioware, you can do exactly that.

Which is also the reason why I doubt we'll ever see a direct sequel to portray our final decision.

Modifié par jontepwn, 08 août 2013 - 04:51 .

[KaiserShep]

The EC basically establishes Control to diminish that possibility. It either becomes the uber-benevolent reaper nanny that pledges to take care of the galaxy forever, or the ruthless reaper dictator that pledges to destroy those that threaten the peace. I don't find either option particularly satisfactory, so I'd rather just destroy them and die a regular person.

I do agree about the potential of a sequel not carrying over any of these choices, assuming that the next game really is a sequel.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 08 août 2013 - 04:56 .

[ruggly]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

IT IS TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE TO REJECT SYNTHESIS BECAUSE OF ITS ETHICAL ISSUES AND ITS PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC NONSENSE!

There. Does everyone see that? Ieldra has stated again and again that this is reasonable. That people keep arguing about this is baffling. I really don't understand what the anti-Synthesis fanatics are trying to prove.

No. Need a larger font size.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, if I may contradict you on a tangential point, Control is a sacrifice because Shepalyst is now isolated. There are no other minds on its level. If it feels the lack, its basically been condemned to hell for the greater good. If it doesn't something vital has been lost.

What if it feels the lack, but other things make up for it? I'm reminded of the often-used "immortality (alone) is hell" argument I don't subscribe to. Yes, you acquire a perpective you cannot share with (other) humans, but is that really so bad that you wouldn't want that kind of existence? For me this sounds too much like "We cannot have immortality, so we try to make a virtue of it and pretend we shouldn't even want it because it's terrible". I've seen so much glorification of human limitations and dependencies in stories - something I usually file away under "traditionalist crap" - that I'm thoroughly sick of it.

How many stories have you seen that avoid "traditionalist crap"? It must be difficult to find them.

[Argolas]

I think that mortality gives our lives meaning. If you're immortal, what does a year mean? Or 100? Or a million? Or 7897984 Quadrillion? What meaning does time have when you have infinite of it?

You only have one life, so do something with it. That's a good thing. When I, one day, had a fulfilled life, I will gladly die and make way for whoever comes after me. I don't see life itself as a torment but I do think that eternal life will become one eventually.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Ieldra, if I may contradict you on a tangential point, Control is a sacrifice because Shepalyst is now isolated. There are no other minds on its level. If it feels the lack, its basically been condemned to hell for the greater good. If it doesn't something vital has been lost.

What if it feels the lack, but other things make up for it? I'm reminded of the often-used "immortality (alone) is hell" argument I don't subscribe to. Yes, you acquire a perpective you cannot share with (other) humans, but is that really so bad that you wouldn't want that kind of existence? For me this sounds too much like "We cannot have immortality, so we try to make a virtue of it and pretend we shouldn't even want it because it's terrible". I've seen so much glorification of human limitations and dependencies in stories - something I usually file away under "traditionalist crap" - that I'm thoroughly sick of it.

How many stories have you seen that avoid "traditionalist crap"? It must be difficult to find them.

It's not so bad, actually. I'm not saying characters shouldn't struggle with such things. In fact, I like it if these things are made a theme and I respect the characters' decision as a personal choice. I've seen them decide one way or the other. Things only get bad when the story itself appears to take a side and everything magically turns out right because someone made the traditionalist choice, or goes to hell because they didn't.  ME is particularly heavy-handed with the message "follow your heart and everything will be ok". Until the ending, anyway.

As for immortality, you can always kill yourself should you get tired of life. Having the option to go on living is the important part. Maybe everyone would want to go after a certain time has passed, and that's perfectly ok. I wouldn't force anyone to live against their will (there is some transhumanist fiction showing how cruel a violation that could be). There is, however, no way I can see the absence of a choice to avoid death if you want as something desirable on the individual level.

[Seival]

...Speaking of exotic things, here is a new picture about Synthesis and my hopes for the new ME game:



I'm starting to think that constantly glowing green eyes, skin, and plants are not a bad thing for creating the truly exotic atmosphere. Those glows should be not just symbolical if BioWare will decide to make new ME game based on Synthesis.

Modifié par Seival, 11 août 2013 - 09:33 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Since I believe Synthesis is inevitable going forward. I sincerely hope BioWare dedicates a solid portion of ME4 to exposition, in particular toward the origin and evolution, alongside individual perspective not unlike our transition into the Mass Effect world when first arriving on the Citadel. Even with the EC, Synthesis remains far too broad and the need to better justify its implementation as a positive is necessary to appeal to a fragmented fanbase - one with lingering contempt for this ending.

Synthesis, from a strictly conceptual perspective, is intriguing. This thread - agree or disagree with the content - is tantamount to that. Hopefully, if this is indeed the direction BioWare heads. They do it properly.

But! If not, well, the backlash will be comical to say nothing else.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 12 août 2013 - 08:32 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

LiL Reapur wrote...

I would choose immortality, seems better than dying IMO even if your alone you still have power to sway civilization towards the right path rather then being dead and letting the future generations run astray.

Word!

Immortal god emperor of the galaxy ftw

[shingara]

Seival wrote...

Yes, that's the right word - exotic.

New ME game based on Synthesis will shine among other sci-fi stories like The Last of Us among all of those other boring zombie tales. Why? Because both have unique non-standard and very interesting features that can't be found anywhere else... I have no doubts BioWare writers can make great Synthesis-based story. And considering the fact that next ME game will use all of those modern next-gen features... such story and its execution would be just amazing.

 Ow ye it will be exotic, talking dogs and cats, cows that tell you to bugger off when you goto milk them. Ships that refuse to move cos there having a day off. Synthesis is so silly its unreal. It states ALL organic and synthetic life will be effected, thats everything from bacteria and goldfish upto humans and elephants.

 The next game if based on synthesis will be mass effect, revolt of the sheep.

Modifié par shingara, 12 août 2013 - 01:44 .

[Seival]

shingara wrote...

Seival wrote...

Yes, that's the right word - exotic.

New ME game based on Synthesis will shine among other sci-fi stories like The Last of Us among all of those other boring zombie tales. Why? Because both have unique non-standard and very interesting features that can't be found anywhere else... I have no doubts BioWare writers can make great Synthesis-based story. And considering the fact that next ME game will use all of those modern next-gen features... such story and its execution would be just amazing.

 Ow ye it will be exotic, talking dogs and cats, cows that tell you to bugger off when you goto milk them. Ships that refuse to move cos there having a day off. Synthesis is so silly its unreal. It states ALL organic and synthetic life will be effected, thats everything from bacteria and goldfish upto humans and elephants.

 The next game if based on synthesis will be mass effect, revolt of the sheep.

Even trivial "detective story" would look much more interesting than anything post-control or post-destroy can offer if everyone around you have glowing green eyes/skin, need no computers/omni-tools (because do much better without them), have ex-VI ghost friends, living among walking and talking 2km-long ancient warships on a beautiful planet full of glowing plants and mysterious animals.

Modifié par Seival, 12 août 2013 - 02:46 .

[shingara]

Seival wrote...

Even trivial "detective story" would look much more interesting than anything post-control or post-destroy can offer if everyone around you have glowing green eyes/skin, need no computers/omni-tools (because do much better without them), have ex-VI ghost friends, living among walking and talking 2km-long ancient warships on a beautiful planet full of glowing plants and mysterious animals.

 What was that mr mouse, the cat was looking at you funny, ok ill go sort him out for you.

[.50CalBrainSurgeon]

People don't buy synthesis because they refuse to suspend their disbelief to such an absurd level. Additionally, the destroy ending offers the most in the way of open ended story telling because there is so much room for conflict. Just because the post-Reaper conflict isn't on a grand scale like the past trilogy doesn't mean that the new conflict will be bad. It all comes down to execution of an idea, and frankly synthesis was a bad idea with even worse execution.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Since I believe Synthesis is inevitable going forward. I sincerely hope BioWare dedicates a solid portion of ME4 to exposition, in particular toward the origin and evolution, alongside individual perspective not unlike our transition into the Mass Effect world when first arriving on the Citadel. Even with the EC, Synthesis remains far too broad and the need to better justify its implementation as a positive is necessary to appeal to a fragmented fanbase - one with lingering contempt for this ending.

Inevitable for ME4?

BW's statements seem to indicate they're moving toward a reboot.

Mass Effect, sans Reapers, is the impression I'm getting (so basically ME2... lulz).

[CronoDragoon]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Since I believe Synthesis is inevitable going forward. I sincerely hope BioWare dedicates a solid portion of ME4 to exposition, in particular toward the origin and evolution, alongside individual perspective not unlike our transition into the Mass Effect world when first arriving on the Citadel. Even with the EC, Synthesis remains far too broad and the need to better justify its implementation as a positive is necessary to appeal to a fragmented fanbase - one with lingering contempt for this ending.

Synthesis, from a strictly conceptual perspective, is intriguing. This thread - agree or disagree with the content - is tantamount to that. Hopefully, if this is indeed the direction BioWare heads. They do it properly.

But! If not, well, the backlash will be comical to say nothing else.

Personally I believe a sequel based off Synthesis is contrary to the tone of Synthesis itself. I rather thought the point was the introduction of the new and unknowable, experimentation, etc. If I had Synthesis chosen as my canon ending I'd abhor a sequel.

[ruggly]

Somehow I don't think they would be able to write a proper synthesis sequel, just going off of what they gave us in ME3. If they try, I would hope they do a lot of research first. Even then, I'll be a bit wary about it.

[Bourne Endeavor]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Inevitable for ME4?

BW's statements seem to indicate they're moving toward a reboot.

Mass Effect, sans Reapers, is the impression I'm getting (so basically ME2... lulz).

I hadn't heard of this, although I cannot see it myself. A reboot is incredibly difficult to pull off and garner the same emotional impact without radically altering the established lore. The characters would inevitably be compared to their predecessors and not likely favorably. Another concern is how Mass Effect shifted from a Space Opera into a pseudo-RPG rail shooter. The Citadel introduction just would not feel as grandiose.

Of course, this is subjective and off-topic.

CronoDragoon wrote...

Personally I believe a sequel based off Synthesis is contrary to the tone of Synthesis itself. I rather thought the point was the introduction of the new and unknowable, experimentation, etc. If I had Synthesis chosen as my canon ending I'd abhor a sequel.

I disagree. Synthesis could manifest new conflict based on people's reaction. You could build an entire narrative around people who despise these changes and the moral implications made. "We were changed, but was it for the better?" If BioWare delved deep into the psyche of individual perspective, they could create an intriguing setting, albeit one rather grim. A false utopia is also interesting. My concern is BioWare's seemingly inability to write stories of such philosophical demand, or rather, their refusal to dedicate the necessary intricacy to make it work. You cannot gloss over details like they do in ME2 and ME3 with junk or pseudo-science.

That said, I hate how Synthesis is presented in ME3 - space magic indeed. As I said, they would need to do a proper origin to better incorporate the idea. Either way, it is not my first choice to continue the series.

[LiL Reapur]

Thread is a year old

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'd be down if it was a reboot to ME2 like atmosphere.

I don't want to get my hopes up though : I expect anything at this point. Multiplayer only microstransaction half shooter/half facebook tablet games.

I sure hope multiplayer doesn't interfere with the main game, whatever it is, but I agree about an ME2 type atmosphere. For all the crap it might get about its irrelevance to the main plot in the end, there's some things that the game got really right that I hope is recaptured in the next game to some degree.