9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

666Bratwurst wrote...
I admire or shall I say accept the possibility of the overall concept of ascending and all that stuff Synthesis is supposed to represent (as most synthesizers see it) but really ... changing all life in the galaxy based on a faulty and ancient Artificial Intelligence's parameters or ideals and having a single man/woman press the button is a mega turn off. Personally I don't like the idea of waking up to a Banshee or husk servant in the morning as it asks me in a disgustingly zombie-like way, "Would you like some coffee with your waffles sir?"

Changing all life in the galaxy is, of course, the big ethical question mark of the Synthesis. It is the ultimate high-risk high-gain decision, and it's perfectly justified to reject it on moral grounds. This is the reason why most interpretations of Synthesis that go into any detail try to give the individual as much agency over the process as they deem compatible with the scenario. See, for instance, my description of the mechanisms a few posts above this one. You may see an opt-out mechanism as against the spirit of the scenario, but if Shepard's identity really influences the Synthesis as hinted at, then something like that would happen if *my* main Shepard jumped into the beam. 

The Catalyst encounter is a problem of its own, it makes all the choices questionable if you roleplay rather than just Synthesis. As I've repeatedly said, I feel justified in approaching this encounter partly on the meta-level since it is rather obvious that the information it gives us about the outcomes of our choices is supposed to be valid, and they they're all supposed to be good outcomes with the possible exception of Renegade Control.  

With regard to the Reaper minions, there is no reason to believe that people will be forced to intermingle with them after the Synthesis. Even should they now be independent life forms - which is not clear, they might just be avatars of "their" Reaper as it is freed from the Catalyst's control - accepting them as valid life forms and regularly intermingling with them are two very different things. For various reasons, I consider it very plausible that they'd stay mostly with their own.  

So it says that synthesis is inevitable ? So what? In my eyes that means that no matter which ending you pick you'll just end up in the exact same place as everything or everyone else. Only the path to it is a tiny bit slower when you chose the other endings.In control it can be pretty much implemented when-ever the Shepalyst chooses (at least I think so...) In the Destroy ending after all the cleanup and scraping husk guts off -pretty much everywhere- it could happen whenever the people of the galaxy chooses and let's not forget they the people would have the *CHOICE* of when to Synthesize themselves.(Rambling F.T.W)

As I see it, the rationale for the "fast" Synthesis is this: it fast-tracks advancement beyond the point where organics and synthetics would destroy each other. With no intervention, there is a high probability of the Catalyst's extinction scenario happening before civilization could get to the point where Synthesis becomes a possibility. Of course making peace on Rannoch counters that, as it does counter the Catalyst's scenario as a whole at least narratively, if not with inescapable logic. I don't think I need to repeat my rant about that. The narrative discontinuity is staggering. I just don't let that get in the way of an interesting outcome.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[Eckswhyzed]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Lots of people around here seem to favor using silly buzzwords in place of thoughtful arguments and reason. This kind of nonsense is not limited to hate for the endings. Eloquence is just not the strong-suit of many of this 'board's posters.

That said, Sync ending is so open for interpretation that it kind of *is* whatever you want it to be -- good or bad.

IMO, the only "invalid" interpretation of it is that it is some kind of façade hiding a horrible reality underneath.

Re: The bolded part.

Oh god, I roll my eyes any time 'genocide' is brought up. Yes, we get it, lots of people were killed, I don't give a crap about what you want to call it.

As for the second part, at least that died with EC.

[JasonShepard]

Oh wow. EDI really does use the phrase "Destructive Analysis" in the cut ME2 dialogue. Now I kinda wish they'd kept that in the game - BSN wouldn't be arguing about whether or not Reapers could get thoughts and memories from "genetic material". (Pet hate - how much the word 'genetic' is used as a buzz word in ME2...)

However... If Bioware had gone down the Destructive Analysis route, the Reapers would have been purely synthetic. There's no reason to actually incorporate organic material if you're going to simulate the individual within a synthetic framework. That's possibly why they dropped it - they wanted the colonists to be a physical component of the Reaper, not just present in cyberspace... I will admit to finding Reapers more horrifying as a biosynthetic fusion (and therefore, from a dramatic perspective, I prefer it). I'm also not convinced that the mysticism aspect had fully set in back at ME2...

My headcanon-y explanation is that intact nervous-systems were hardwired into the Reapers, although there's no actual in-game evidence for that besides "people get melted into goo", "goo gets put into Reaper", "Reaper mind is the people".

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2 wrote...
...
With regard to the Reaper minions, there is no reason to believe that people will be forced to intermingle with them after the Synthesis. Even should they now be independent life forms - which is not clear, they might just be avatars of "their" Reaper as it is freed from the Catalyst's control - accepting them as valid life forms and regularly intermingling with them are two very different things. For various reasons, I consider it very plausible that they'd stay mostly with their own.  
...

Dragon Age: Origins Awakenings did some pretty good stuff with the darkspawn abominations suddenly gaining freedom. No longer driven to hurl themselves at their master's enemies, they began looking upon their former adversaries with the same dehumanized perspective that was put on them, began questioning their own existence and purpose, some even longed to be slaves again and went insane when this was denied. In the end the freed darkspawn sequestered themselves away from beings that would do them harm, and left to form their own society. I think one, the Emissary from the climax, actually became a wandering adventurer. Dunno if they showed up someplace in DA2 DLC.

So I think this freed Reaper husk thing is rife with possibilities and interesting stories.

Modifié par Obadiah, 22 octobre 2013 - 05:17 .

[Dr. Megaverse]

JasonShepard wrote...

 wow.

I got 2 minutes in.  Seems about right....

[Ieldra]

JasonShepard wrote...
Oh wow. EDI really does use the phrase "Destructive Analysis" in the cut ME2 dialogue. Now I kinda wish they'd kept that in the game - BSN wouldn't be arguing about whether or not Reapers could get thoughts and memories from "genetic material". (Pet hate - how much the word 'genetic' is used as a buzz word in ME2...)

Yeah. That's why I can't stop ranting about how they had a perfectly non-mystical rationalization and then replaced it with nonsense. It sends me up the wall every time I think of it.

However... If Bioware had gone down the Destructive Analysis route, the Reapers would have been purely synthetic. There's no reason to actually incorporate organic material if you're going to simulate the individual within a synthetic framework. That's possibly why they dropped it - they wanted the colonists to be a physical component of the Reaper, not just present in cyberspace... I will admit to finding Reapers more horrifying as a biosynthetic fusion (and therefore, from a dramatic perspective, I prefer it). I'm also not convinced that the mysticism aspect had fully set in back at ME2...

The Reapers *are* physically synthetic according to Legion, and actually, since "synthetic" means they're constructed rather than grown, you can be synthetic and still incorporate organic material. It remains nonsensical, though, that the Reapers would do that since organic material doesn't have any advantages in that context. As I see it, the "genetic material" was needed only to store information about the Reaperized individuals' physical makeup.

My headcanon-y explanation is that intact nervous-systems were hardwired into the Reapers, although there's no actual in-game evidence for that besides "people get melted into goo", "goo gets put into Reaper", "Reaper mind is the people".

That would work, but only if the brains were kept intact. That does not appear to be the case.

[Xilizhra]

I see the Catalyst's dialogue as being it trying to adapt its ideas to Shepard's mind and just badly underestimating her, or perhaps just not being good at speaking to organics in general.

I also think that those who worry about Synthesis destroying individuality and undermining the unity/diversity of the galaxy that had been naturally achieved are looking at it backwards; Synthesis is the reward for such unity, giving perhaps vital tools to allow it to continue. That's why it requires the highest EMS, and that's why the Catalyst has those lines about it not being able to be forced; I suspect this means that it can't force Synthesis onto a non-united galaxy, somehow.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

I see the Catalyst's dialogue as being it trying to adapt its ideas to Shepard's mind and just badly underestimating her, or perhaps just not being good at speaking to organics in general.

I also think that those who worry about Synthesis destroying individuality and undermining the unity/diversity of the galaxy that had been naturally achieved are looking at it backwards; Synthesis is the reward for such unity, giving perhaps vital tools to allow it to continue. That's why it requires the highest EMS, and that's why the Catalyst has those lines about it not being able to be forced; I suspect this means that it can't force Synthesis onto a non-united galaxy, somehow.

Woah, you're really looking into this too deeply, it simply requires the highest EMS, because the writers love this ending so much and wanted to "reward" the player for achieving high EMS. 

Ingame it's simple, Synthesis only works if the Crucible is barely damaged.

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I see the Catalyst's dialogue as being it trying to adapt its ideas to Shepard's mind and just badly underestimating her, or perhaps just not being good at speaking to organics in general.

I also think that those who worry about Synthesis destroying individuality and undermining the unity/diversity of the galaxy that had been naturally achieved are looking at it backwards; Synthesis is the reward for such unity, giving perhaps vital tools to allow it to continue. That's why it requires the highest EMS, and that's why the Catalyst has those lines about it not being able to be forced; I suspect this means that it can't force Synthesis onto a non-united galaxy, somehow.

Woah, you're really looking into this too deeply, it simply requires the highest EMS, because the writers love this ending so much and wanted to "reward" the player for achieving high EMS. 

Ingame it's simple, Synthesis only works if the Crucible is barely damaged.

It's a reward on multiple levels, both in-game and thematically.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...



Woah, you're really looking into this too deeply, it simply requires the highest EMS, because the writers love this ending so much and wanted to "reward" the player for achieving high EMS. 

Ingame it's simple, Synthesis only works if the Crucible is barely damaged.

It's a reward on multiple levels, both in-game and thematically.

Not everyone would consider it a reward. Not everyone thinks Synthesis is a good ending. Not everyone considers Synthetics alive. Not everyone is happy with sacrifing Shepard.

[Xilizhra]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...



Woah, you're really looking into this too deeply, it simply requires the highest EMS, because the writers love this ending so much and wanted to "reward" the player for achieving high EMS. 

Ingame it's simple, Synthesis only works if the Crucible is barely damaged.

It's a reward on multiple levels, both in-game and thematically.

Not everyone would consider it a reward. Not everyone thinks Synthesis is a good ending. Not everyone considers Synthetics alive. Not everyone is happy with sacrifing Shepard.

And those people are free to be Renegades.

[Obadiah]

Seival wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Question got raised in another thread: do you think any forms of life, including the Reapers, are able to resist Synthesis or escape the Synthesis wave, and if so, what kind of existence would they have in the new galactic community and how would they be treated?

I really doubt anyone or anything could escape or shield themselves from the Synthesis even if they had a time for this. The entire galaxy was covered by the explosions (see the epilogue), and even unstoppable Reaper dreadnoughts were affected.

Yeah, but there is a notion that Synthesis could be de-activated on an individual basis. If this is not available by the initial wave, then perhaps through research.

Seems to me beings without Synthesis would be at a severe disadvantage to everyone else, and segregation would take place over time. Eventually, there could be whole colonies of non-Synthesis beings. These colonies would come under the scrutiny of the Reapers that still exist among us and believe in preventing an "inevitable" AI/Organic conflict.

Hmmm....

Modifié par Obadiah, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:24 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's a reward on multiple levels, both in-game and thematically.

Not everyone would consider it a reward. Not everyone thinks Synthesis is a good ending. Not everyone considers Synthetics alive. Not everyone is happy with sacrifing Shepard.

And those people are free to be Renegades.

Huh, I play pure Paragon and still neither consider Synthetics alive nor Synthesis a good ending. Please stop generally branding the endings based on your moral views.

[Obadiah]

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's a reward on multiple levels, both in-game and thematically.

Not everyone would consider it a reward. Not everyone thinks Synthesis is a good ending. Not everyone considers Synthetics alive. Not everyone is happy with sacrifing Shepard.

And those people are free to be Renegades.

Huh, I play pure Paragon and still neither consider Synthetics alive nor Synthesis a good ending. Please stop generally branding the endings based on your moral views.

You first.

[Obadiah]

Something else that occurs to me, the Catalyst said that something similar to Synthesis has been tried in the past and failed. If it was implemented with a galaxy-wide blast wave within the last 100s of millions of years of history, then life on Earth would have been affected. If it was within the last 100 million years primates might have been affected.

The current cycle of Humans, Turians, Asari, Krogan, Quarian, Batarian, and even the Geth may have evolved with that failed Synthesis implementation within their biological make-up. We may all be products of it.

Do you think that is possible and if so what does that mean?

[jtav]

I'd class the endings this way:

Destroy=Renegade
Synthesis=Paragon
Control=Neutral/depends on Shepard

This is not a judgment on whether a choice is good or evil. Destroy is bringing a sift and certain end to the conflict, with consequences that are immediate but also comprehensible. Synthesis is accepting an enormous risk in service to an idealism that's a bit foolish. The morality of the choice is not clear-cut, same as BDTS or Legion's LM.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Obadiah wrote...


Dragon Age: Origins Awakenings did some pretty good stuff with the darkspawn abominations suddenly gaining freedom. No longer driven to hurl themselves at their master's enemies, they began looking upon their former adversaries with the same dehumanized perspective that was put on them, began questioning their own existence and purpose, some even longed to be slaves again and went insane when this was denied.

Yeah, DA:A had some pretty strong parallels with ME3, where the endings are concerned. One big difference, though, is that the 'reborn' Darkspawn were an established part of the story for some time before the ending, though it was unclear what that meant. In ME3, the only thing that foreshadows the ending (before Leviathan DLC) is one line on Thessia by a VI.

Judging by the old threads I've flipped through on this topic, though, it seems that the majority of the fanbase prefers the Destroy-equivalent option in that ending, too. I took the other one, though ('wonder what the IT crowd makes of this choice).

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
Something else that occurs to me, the Catalyst said that something similar to Synthesis has been tried in the past and failed. If it was implemented with a galaxy-wide blast wave within the last 100s of millions of years of history, then life on Earth would have been affected. If it was within the last 100 million years primates might have been affected.

The current cycle of Humans, Turians, Asari, Krogan, Quarian, Batarian, and even the Geth may have evolved with that failed Synthesis implementation within their biological make-up. We may all be products of it.

Do you think that is possible and if so what does that mean?

I don't think this is something we can meaningfully speculate about. IMO this line only exists because of the question "why wasn't this tried before" and we don't know more than "it was tried and it failed, but things are different now" The answer "organics were not ready" is a non-answer because it doesn't tell us what "ready" means.

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
...
With regard to the Reaper minions, there is no reason to believe that people will be forced to intermingle with them after the Synthesis. Even should they now be independent life forms - which is not clear, they might just be avatars of "their" Reaper as it is freed from the Catalyst's control - accepting them as valid life forms and regularly intermingling with them are two very different things. For various reasons, I consider it very plausible that they'd stay mostly with their own.  
...

Dragon Age: Origins Awakenings did some pretty good stuff with the darkspawn abominations suddenly gaining freedom. No longer driven to hurl themselves at their master's enemies, they began looking upon their former adversaries with the same dehumanized perspective that was put on them, began questioning their own existence and purpose, some even longed to be slaves again and went insane when this was denied. In the end the freed darkspawn sequestered themselves away from beings that would do them harm, and left to form their own society. I think one, the Emissary from the climax, actually became a wandering adventurer. Dunno if they showed up someplace in DA2 DLC.

So I think this freed Reaper husk thing is rife with possibilities and interesting stories.

This is one reason I like DAA very much. DAO put the darkspawn forward as your standard fantasy enemy featuring the typical abomination aesthetic, and DAA subverted that hard. Beautiful. I would've liked a hint that something similar is possible for the Reaper minions in ME3, such as an independent banshee, but then, the DA universe has always been more open in this regard.

(BTW, the one who became an adventurer is The Messenger, one of the Architect's followers.)

[Navasha]

Sorry, will simply have to whole-heartedly disagree.

Destroy is truly the only choice I believe a Paragon would ever make. It destroys the Reapers, and everything the reapers infected. It is the only choice that allows the races of the galaxy to self-determine their own future.

Some say its genocide... of who? The Geth? Legion had changed the moment he was "upgraded" by the Reaper code. He was tainted. He was a heretic in ME3, the same type of geth that he felt needed to be destroyed in ME2. He no longer wanted to grow and evolve at their own pace and wanted to keep the reaper code. He wanted to be "given" his future. All the Geth that were left had this tainted code. EDI too was created with reaper parts and code left over from Sovereign. Destroy is the only option that guarantees the end of the Reaper threat.

Control is a good option for those "god-complex" types who believe controlling other people is a good thing. I believe in "absolute power corrupting absolutely" so Control would never turn out good for the galaxy in the end. You are just replacing one tyrant with another, so basically the Reapers win.

Synthesis is the worst of the lot. You basically cast away the diversity of all life in the galaxy, selfishly re-writing it ALL with Reaper code. Turning everything into husks. Its the most dramatic example possible of imposing a belief system on others and to me that's just about the definition of true evil. This isn't even a Renegade decision. Renegades would "win" at all costs. This isn't winning. This is allowing the Reapers to finally achieve ultimate victory over life itself.

Modifié par Navasha, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:13 .

[Ieldra]

@Navasha:
There are *still* people who believe Synthesis turns people into Husks? Amazing. Also, I don't put Reaper code into anything, and as the EC shows, life remains as diverse as it always was - or as non-diverse, since all life it based on DNA, and if you change parts of it that are the same for all life, putting other things in which are also the same, you don't reduce diversity since it never existed in the first place.

And Legion is....tainted? By acquiring full individuality instead of being part of a networked collective? That....does not compute.

I take it you're one of those who believe anything touched by the Reapers is tainted regardless of any actual tangible evil resulting from it, right? In that case you're right, Synthesis is not for you. Anyone who feels that "organic purity" is desirable will not like it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:54 .

[AlexMBrennan]

And Legion is....tainted? By acquiring full individuality instead of being part of a networked collective?

No, by using Reaper code to "acquire full individuality", and if you are willing to trust Reaper code to be completely benign moments after shutting down a Reaper signal controlling the geth then I've got a bridge to sell.

Also, what happened to Legion's "the geth will make their own future"?

There are *still* people who believe Synthesis turns people into Husks?

Husks are organic-synthetic hybrids, and Synthesis turns turns everyone into organic-synthetic hybrids with a new DNA framework... can you really not see the connection? Or is this the first time you've seen someone exaggerate for effect?

[Navasha]

@Ieldra2 - 

Actually, its more like anyone who believes that re-writing all lifeforms in the galaxy AGAINST their will, then Synthesis is not for them.   It has absolutely nothing to do with "organic purity".   It has to do with FREE WILL. 

If even a single lifeform would choose not to let this happen to them, then to me it is nothing short of morally reprehensible.   Can you even imagine if I just decided that I thought you would be "happier" if you thought as I do and just decided to change who you are so that you would now agree with me?    Re-writing you so that no longer believe as you do right now and would fully understand my point of view.   

You would be okay with that?    Don't worry.   My point of view is that I would never do that to you.   I respect your free will and to make choices for YOURSELF. 

[Ieldra]

Navasha wrote...
@Ieldra2 - 

Actually, its more like anyone who believes that re-writing all lifeforms in the galaxy AGAINST their will, then Synthesis is not for them.   It has absolutely nothing to do with "organic purity".   It has to do with FREE WILL. 

If even a single lifeform would choose not to let this happen to them, then to me it is nothing short of morally reprehensible.   Can you even imagine if I just decided that I thought you would be "happier" if you thought as I do and just decided to change who you are so that you would now agree with me?    Re-writing you so that no longer believe as you do right now and would fully understand my point of view.   

You would be okay with that?    Don't worry.   My point of view is that I would never do that to you.   I respect your free will and to make choices for YOURSELF. 

Oh, so you believe Synthesis brainwashes people in order to resolve the organic/synthetic conflict? Well, there is no indication that it does, and no, I would not choose Synthesis if I believed that. Synthesis makes physical changes that enable organics to keep up with synthetics. It may change *what* you are to some degree, but not *who* you are. At least that's what I get out of the EC exposition.

I agree that it's still an thorny issue ethically, and yes, it's a perfectly valid reason to reject Synthesis (as I tend to say at least once per page since it's apparently necessary), but it's not brainwashing. Also, my specific interpretation includes an opt-out mechanism. If the Synthesis is based on the thoughts and memories of my main Shepard, such a thing would exist.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2013 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

No, by using Reaper code to "acquire full individuality", and if you are willing to trust Reaper code to be completely benign moments after shutting down a Reaper signal controlling the geth then I've got a bridge to sell.

You're pretty confident for someone who's objectively wrong. The code itself didn't control anyone, it was the Reaper signal; without that, the code is wholly benign, and can't be taken by another Reaper.

Also, what happened to Legion's "the geth will make their own future"?

Near extinction at the hands of the quarians. The geth's original planned future turned out to be a horrific strategic vulnerability.

If even a single lifeform would choose not to let this happen to them, then to me it is nothing short of morally reprehensible. Can you even imagine if I just decided that I thought you would be "happier" if you thought as I do and just decided to change who you are so that you would now agree with me? Re-writing you so that no longer believe as you do right now and would fully understand my point of view.

Much less reprehensible than wiping out a whole race.