9088 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

Near extinction at the hands of the quarians. The geth's original planned future turned out to be a horrific strategic vulnerability.

So Legion is a complete hypocrite? Got it.

The code itself didn't control anyone, it was the Reaper signal; without that, the code is wholly benign, and can't be taken by another Reaper.

Since Shepard is not an AI expert and did not consult any AI experts on the topic he could not possibly have known that. Like all of Shepard's stupid leaps of faith it works out anyway but that doesn't make it a smart decision.

[Xilizhra]

So Legion is a complete hypocrite? Got it.

So simply wanting to have a future is hypocritical now? It's not like the original geth philosophy was even some great moral pillar.

Since Shepard is not an AI expert and did not consult any AI experts on the topic he could not possibly have known that. Like all of Shepard's stupid leaps of faith it works out anyway but that doesn't make it a smart decision.

Right, because people like Tali, EDI and Xen are not around to inspect the code themselves, certainly.

[jtav]

I consider it better to just kill the geth on Rannoch. The message of Rannoch is that they are only valid if they are individuals. That code turns a race that I found fascinating into a bunch of Pinocchios. Either way is genocide, but one is at least treated as tragic.

But we have no evidence that anyone is brainwashed in Synthesis. The effects seem more akin to giving everyone superpowers. Doing so without consent is unethical, but it's somewhat hypocritical to complain about that now, after causing (or not) multiple extinctions and reshaping the galaxy.

[Xilizhra]

I consider it better to just kill the geth on Rannoch. The message of Rannoch is that they are only valid if they are individuals. That code turns a race that I found fascinating into a bunch of Pinocchios. Either way is genocide, but one is at least treated as tragic.

The reason is that they can only survive if they're individuals. The consensus got their Dyson sphere shattered by the quarians and their entire race crippled, and it leads to the quarians wiping them out completely if they're not upgraded.

[Obadiah]

Just for kicks in a possible post-synthesis galaxy:

[CronoDragoon]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
So Legion is a complete hypocrite? Got it.

The geth have always been hypocrites, but that's a bit besides the point. I don't have a problem with the way the geth are written in ME3. The existence of a state of being (hive-mind) is not an argument for its viability. In this particular case, individuality lead to a future, hive-mind led to enslavement and eventually death.

If you want to interpret that as the BW writers expressing an opinion on individuality, then I'm fine with that too, since it's one I share. While I won't force my preference for individuality on those who don't want it, I will applaud those who choose themselves to share my view.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:01 .

[Navasha]

Lets tackle the Legion aspect. In ME2, Legion states that Nazara offered the Geth this 'upgrade'. To give them their future. The "true" geth as legion calls them refused. They wanted to make their own future. To discover how they would evolve on their own. The heretic geth wanted to accept it and did.

The whole Legion loyalty mission was about a virus that was going to re-write the true geth to believe the same way as the heretics. Legion was all for destroying the heretics to prevent this. Even when it came to light that the virus could instead be used against the heretics, Legions geth couldn't come to a consensus on whether to use it or not.

By the time ME3 came around, Legion was fully on the side of the heretics. He no longer wanted to make his own future and evolve free and independent of outside influence. He was willing to simply accept the reaper upgrade because it gave him power. Legion became everything he was willing to destroy in ME2.

Do you honestly not see the problem of having the reaper code changes affecting the development of the Geth? The reapers, whose core program came to the conclusion that to 'preserve' life, it should be harvested and locked away inside synthetic bodies? One simple mathematical rounding discrepancy was ALL it took to make the difference between ME2 Legion and ME1 Geth who had no problem following the reapers in their destruction of the galaxy. Yet, somehow incorporating reaper code that upgrades their processing power 1000 fold wouldn't change them?

Sorry, that isn't a risk any Shepard should be willing to take given the horrors of what she has witnessed the Reapers doing.

The Geth can be rebuilt. They can be restarted if need be and they can be nurtured without the Morning War if so inclined. They could be taught to value life from the very beginning if you so choose. Allowing them to "upgrade" using code that has already demonstrated that it doesn't actually value life, seems like a recipe for failure.

EDI is far more advanced than the Geth in that regard. She was beginning to understand compassion, value of others beliefs, and even self-sacrifice. Her loss is much more devastating to me than the Geths. However, she herself finally said she would be willing to die for Jeff and those she cared about.

[Xilizhra]

Lets tackle the Legion aspect. In ME2, Legion states that Nazara offered the Geth this 'upgrade'. To give them their future. The "true" geth as legion calls them refused. They wanted to make their own future. To discover how they would evolve on their own. The heretic geth wanted to accept it and did.

Which was fine. The problem was that they then attacked the rest of the galaxy.

By the time ME3 came around, Legion was fully on the side of the heretics. He no longer wanted to make his own future and evolve free and independent of outside influence. He was willing to simply accept the reaper upgrade because it gave him power. Legion became everything he was willing to destroy in ME2.

Incorrect. The true geth let the heretics go; the heretics were the ones who opened hostilities. And Legion doesn't worship the Reapers; the code is just the only means of survival.

Sorry, that isn't a risk any Shepard should be willing to take given the horrors of what she has witnessed the Reapers doing.

It's a risk that must be taken, and it's not even that big.

The Geth can be rebuilt. They can be restarted if need be and they can be nurtured without the Morning War if so inclined. They could be taught to value life from the very beginning if you so choose. Allowing them to "upgrade" using code that has already demonstrated that it doesn't actually value life, seems like a recipe for failure.

The code itself isn't self-aware, and "can be rebuilt" is an utterly hollow justification when you're still wiping out a whole race.

[JasonShepard]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The code itself didn't control anyone, it was the Reaper signal; without that, the code is wholly benign, and can't be taken by another Reaper.

Since Shepard is not an AI expert and did not consult any AI experts on the topic he could not possibly have known that. Like all of Shepard's stupid leaps of faith it works out anyway but that doesn't make it a smart decision.

Wait - Legion doesn't count as an AI expert? Since when?

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

No. The Geth wanted to create their own future. That is gone. Never to come again. It didn't evolve anywhere. It ended. They were forced to become like Heretics. And then you have a choice to help that, in particular, to evolve.

They wanted to, but their own future simply did not work. It was destroyed by the quarians and was shown to be unviable for continued survival. The geth adapted to the constraints of their environment and changed their goals to fit reality better.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

No. The Geth wanted to create their own future. That is gone. Never to come again. It didn't evolve anywhere. It ended. They were forced to become like Heretics. And then you have a choice to help that, in particular, to evolve.

They wanted to, but their own future simply did not work. It was destroyed by the quarians and was shown to be unviable for continued survival. The geth adapted to the constraints of their environment and changed their goals to fit reality better.

Doesn't make them any less hypocritical

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

No. The Geth wanted to create their own future. That is gone. Never to come again. It didn't evolve anywhere. It ended. They were forced to become like Heretics. And then you have a choice to help that, in particular, to evolve.

They wanted to, but their own future simply did not work. It was destroyed by the quarians and was shown to be unviable for continued survival. The geth adapted to the constraints of their environment and changed their goals to fit reality better.

That isn't evolution though. It's simply succumbing to defeat. It isn't a branch springing from the old tree, so to speak. It's a completely new tree.

It's still the geth as a race. They just changed their philosophy.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

No. The Geth wanted to create their own future. That is gone. Never to come again. It didn't evolve anywhere. It ended. They were forced to become like Heretics. And then you have a choice to help that, in particular, to evolve.

They wanted to, but their own future simply did not work. It was destroyed by the quarians and was shown to be unviable for continued survival. The geth adapted to the constraints of their environment and changed their goals to fit reality better.

That isn't evolution though. It's simply succumbing to defeat. It isn't a branch springing from the old tree, so to speak. It's a completely new tree.

It's still the geth as a race. They just changed their philosophy.

Changing your way of thinking is not evolution. 

[JasonShepard]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

No. The Geth wanted to create their own future. That is gone. Never to come again. It didn't evolve anywhere. It ended. They were forced to become like Heretics. And then you have a choice to help that, in particular, to evolve.

Like the heretics, but not exactly the same. The Heretics were willing to make a deal with the Reapers, willing to attack innocents and take free will away from others, compromising the whole "every individual has the right to self-determination" value that Legion mentions in ME2.

The ME3 Geth do make a deal with the Reapers, but only for the sake of self-preservation. By the time that Legion is uploading the code, however, there is no deal - they are forcibly taking the technology from the Reapers. And - if you end up choosing the Geth over the Quarians - they will only compromise "every individual has the right to self-determination" and wipe out the Quarians because the alternative is extinction.

Honestly, I think the main difference between ME2 and ME3 is that the Geth got a hard lesson in their own mortality when the Quarians attacked and handed the Geth's asses to them. That brush with extinction caused them to re-evaluate a few things. Although, of course, it would have been nice to get some in-game dialogue to actually state that, but you can't have everything.

[Navasha]

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

Not evolved, but re-written.    They were "uplifted" just like the Salarians "uplifted" the Krogan before they were ready.    They were given advancements before their time.   They didn't evolve into their being through trial and error.   They weren't given the time and failures necessary to achieve appreciation for their new found power.  

The "uplifted" Geth would have been no better for the galaxy than the "uplifted" Krogan.   The Salarians were wrong to use the Krogan as a weapon against the Rachni before they were ready.   The result was that they had to be put back down with the Genophage.   Tragedy begets tragedy.  

Synthesis is another "uplifting" of the entire galaxy.   Trying to skip the long process of learning from failures and just go straight to undeserved power.     Power without the appreciation (and sometimes horror) of its creation inevitably leads to abuse.  

[CronoDragoon]

Navasha wrote...
Not evolved, but re-written.    They were "uplifted" just like the Salarians "uplifted" the Krogan before they were ready.    They were given advancements before their time.   They didn't evolve into their being through trial and error.   They weren't given the time and failures necessary to achieve appreciation for their new found power.  

The "uplifted" Geth would have been no better for the galaxy than the "uplifted" Krogan.   The Salarians were wrong to use the Krogan as a weapon against the Rachni before they were ready.   The result was that they had to be put back down with the Genophage.   Tragedy begets tragedy.  

Synthesis is another "uplifting" of the entire galaxy.   Trying to skip the long process of learning from failures and just go straight to undeserved power.     Power without the appreciation (and sometimes horror) of its creation inevitably leads to abuse.  

The geth chose this for themselves. It is not a comparable situation to the krogan.

[Xilizhra]

Changing your way of thinking is not evolution.

The evolution was the actual upgrades.

Not evolved, but re-written. They were "uplifted" just like the Salarians "uplifted" the Krogan before they were ready. They were given advancements before their time. They didn't evolve into their being through trial and error. They weren't given the time and failures necessary to achieve appreciation for their new found power.

Why are you worshiping this natural selection thing? It's not objectively better. Every single race in the galaxy found technology beyond them and used it to advance to make it to the stars. The krogan were a problem only because of their culture and how they were used; it had nothing to do with the tech itself.

The "uplifted" Geth would have been no better for the galaxy than the "uplifted" Krogan. The Salarians were wrong to use the Krogan as a weapon against the Rachni before they were ready. The result was that they had to be put back down with the Genophage. Tragedy begets tragedy.

This is incredibly silly. The geth, at least if you rewrite them in ME2, are one of the strongest forces against the Reapers.

Synthesis is another "uplifting" of the entire galaxy. Trying to skip the long process of learning from failures and just go straight to undeserved power. Power without the appreciation (and sometimes horror) of its creation inevitably leads to abuse.

You can get abuse anywhere, but Synthesis is the culmination of previous unity, not its repudiation. Synthesis is a reward, a means of using said unity to go on to ever-greater heights.

[Obadiah]

Navasha wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The "true" Geth (ME2 Legion's Geth) are screwed in every scenario. A truly dead "race", no matter what Shepard does or doesn't do.

Not screwed, but evolved.

Not evolved, but re-written.    They were "uplifted" just like the Salarians "uplifted" the Krogan before they were ready.    They were given advancements before their time.   They didn't evolve into their being through trial and error.   They weren't given the time and failures necessary to achieve appreciation for their new found power.  

The "uplifted" Geth would have been no better for the galaxy than the "uplifted" Krogan.   The Salarians were wrong to use the Krogan as a weapon against the Rachni before they were ready.   The result was that they had to be put back down with the Genophage.   Tragedy begets tragedy.  

Synthesis is another "uplifting" of the entire galaxy.   Trying to skip the long process of learning from failures and just go straight to undeserved power.     Power without the appreciation (and sometimes horror) of its creation inevitably leads to abuse.  

Just using your own evaluation at face value, I don't see why "abuse of power" in Synthesis is worse than blowing away a form of life (that objectively helps you if you let them) with the Destroy choice or picking the Quarians over the Geth at Rannoch because of some slippery slope you think the Geth are on.

[Br3admax]

1. It wasn't an upgrade anymore than being hypnotized is evolution.
2. Natural selection is the only form of evolution that is truly evolution, unless you force the change on the population as a whole. Second, you aren't even debating the same point. The krogan were forced to evolve before they were ready, something you don't seem to understand.
3. Not really. Even rewritten geth are mediocre compared to just about every other fleet except for the quarians.
4.We aren't all the same so forcing us all to be the same is worse than just about anything. Unity of things that do not need to be united sounds like the plot of a horrible futuristic Borg like society.

[Xilizhra]

1. It wasn't an upgrade anymore than being hypnotized is evolution.

Vast increase in processing power sounds like one to me.

3. Not really. Even rewritten geth are mediocre compared to just about every other fleet except for the quarians.

Then it seems you're not playing the same game. Again, at full strength, only krogan and Alliance forces have more EMS than the geth ones (Alien too, but they're just a collection of disparate powers).

4.We aren't all the same so forcing us all to be the same is worse than
just about anything. Unity of things that do not need to be united
sounds like the plot of a horrible futuristic Borg like society.

Synthesis doesn't make everyone identical.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2013 - 04:06 .

[Navasha]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not evolved, but re-written. They were "uplifted" just like the Salarians "uplifted" the Krogan before they were ready. They were given advancements before their time. They didn't evolve into their being through trial and error. They weren't given the time and failures necessary to achieve appreciation for their new found power.

Why are you worshiping this natural selection thing? It's not objectively better. Every single race in the galaxy found technology beyond them and used it to advance to make it to the stars. The krogan were a problem only because of their culture and how they were used; it had nothing to do with the tech itself.

My point exactly.   They each found technology left by the REAPERS.   They didn't learn to use it on their own.   They didn't develop it themselves through trial and error, success and failure.   They used something that someone else made without ever trying to understand it.    Look where that lead them.   They unknowingly were setting themselves up for being harvested because they chose to use something that they found that they didn't fully understand. 

To me the whole Mass Effect game should be a giant lesson in "Don't take the easy way out".   If the races had developed their own technology and not tried to just accept the "gift" put in front of them, then they would have been better able to defend against the reapers.    The Reapers made relays, citadel, and mass effect tech so that the upcoming races could easily be controlled through its use.    Free gifts are a trap. 

The "uplifted" Geth would have been no better for the galaxy than the "uplifted" Krogan. The Salarians were wrong to use the Krogan as a weapon against the Rachni before they were ready. The result was that they had to be put back down with the Genophage. Tragedy begets tragedy.

This is incredibly silly. The geth, at least if you rewrite them in ME2, are one of the strongest forces against the Reapers.

So you believe that the Salarians weaponizing the Krogan was a good thing?   They were after all the 'strongest" weapon in the Rachni wars.  To me, re-writing (brainwashing) is always a bad thing.   Hands down.   Nothing will ever convince me otherwise.

Synthesis is another "uplifting" of the entire galaxy. Trying to skip the long process of learning from failures and just go straight to undeserved power. Power without the appreciation (and sometimes horror) of its creation inevitably leads to abuse.

You can get abuse anywhere, but Synthesis is the culmination of previous unity, not its repudiation. Synthesis is a reward, a means of using said unity to go on to ever-greater heights.

Its still the accepting of a gift of power unearned and inevitably unappreciated.    Earning something is treated differently than just being given something.   We see that in reality every time.    A person who works their whole life to accumulate $1 million dollar savings treats that money FAR differently than someone who wins $1 million dollar check from the lottery.    It is the effort (success and failures) of achievement that bring respect and responsibility.