Aller au contenu

Photo

A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
9088 réponses à ce sujet

#7801
Br3admax

Br3admax
  • Members
  • 12 316 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

1. It wasn't an upgrade anymore than being hypnotized is evolution.

Vast increase in processing power sounds like one to me.

No. One can be hypotnotized to do similar things. It's not evolution.

3. Not really. Even rewritten geth are mediocre compared to just about every other fleet except for the quarians.

Then it seems you're not playing the same game. Again, at full strength, only krogan and Alliance forces have more EMS than the geth ones (Alien too, but they're just a collection of disparate powers).

Storywise, just about every fleet can defeat the geth. EMS is a gameplay element mostly.

4.We aren't all the same so forcing us all to be the same is worse than
just about anything. Unity of things that do not need to be united
sounds like the plot of a horrible futuristic Borg like society.

Synthesis doesn't make everyone identical.

Point missed, and really you have no proof of that and more of the opposite. 

#7802
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 765 messages

Br3ad wrote...

1. It wasn't an upgrade anymore than being hypnotized is evolution.
2. Natural selection is the only form of evolution that is truly evolution, unless you force the change on the population as a whole. Second, you aren't even debating the same point. The krogan were forced to evolve before they were ready, something you don't seem to understand.
3. Not really. Even rewritten geth are mediocre compared to just about every other fleet except for the quarians.
4.We aren't all the same so forcing us all to be the same is worse than just about anything. Unity of things that do not need to be united sounds like the plot of a horrible futuristic Borg like society.

Evolution is a selection of traits that gets passed on to surving descendents. Without Reaper upgrades the Geth die at Rannoch and there are no survivors. Geth survival in this environment is only possible with the traits of the Reaper upgrades. Thus the Reaper upgrades are a natural selection of traits.

I fail to see why this does not fit within the definition of evolution or natural selection.

#7803
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

My point exactly. They each found technology left by the REAPERS. They didn't learn to use it on their own. They didn't develop it themselves through trial and error, success and failure. They used something that someone else made without ever trying to understand it. Look where that lead them. They unknowingly were setting themselves up for being harvested because they chose to use something that they found that they didn't fully understand.

And yet, only won through that same technology, which has given so many other benefits.

So you believe that the Salarians weaponizing the Krogan was a good thing? They were after all the 'strongest" weapon in the Rachni wars. To me, re-writing (brainwashing) is always a bad thing. Hands down. Nothing will ever convince me otherwise.

It may have been an inevitable thing, given the circumstances of the Rachni Wars.

Its still the accepting of a gift of power unearned and inevitably unappreciated. Earning something is treated differently than just being given something. We see that in reality every time. A person who works their whole life to accumulate $1 million dollar savings treats that money FAR differently than someone who wins $1 million dollar check from the lottery. It is the effort (success and failures) of achievement that bring respect and responsibility.

Sometimes. Other times, people who work for their achievements are just as bad. And Synthesis doesn't really seem to give anything other than potential.

#7804
Br3admax

Br3admax
  • Members
  • 12 316 messages

Obadiah wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. It wasn't an upgrade anymore than being hypnotized is evolution.
2. Natural selection is the only form of evolution that is truly evolution, unless you force the change on the population as a whole. Second, you aren't even debating the same point. The krogan were forced to evolve before they were ready, something you don't seem to understand.
3. Not really. Even rewritten geth are mediocre compared to just about every other fleet except for the quarians.
4.We aren't all the same so forcing us all to be the same is worse than just about anything. Unity of things that do not need to be united sounds like the plot of a horrible futuristic Borg like society.

Evolution is a selection of traits that gets passed on to surving descendents. Without Reaper upgrades the Geth die at Rannoch and there are no survivors. Geth survival in this environment is only possible with the traits of the Reaper upgrades. Thus the Reaper upgrades are a natural selection of traits.

I fail to see why this does not fit within the definition of evolution or natural selection.

Evolution is definitenly not a temporray thing brought on by a radio signal. 

#7805
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages
 Yeesh. This nonsense about hypocrisy and "own future" are completely symbolic arguments. They're meaningless.


You adapt, or you die. Such is life. Legion learned it on Rannoch, and you should too.


/convo.

#7806
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 189 messages
Wow...the nonsense is strong in this thread today.

I consider the following arguments fundamentally invalid and will dismiss them without further notice, regardless of the idea in whose support they're used:

(1) "Unearned power". This is a subjective argument. The standards of whether or not someone has earned something are completely arbitrary. Also this presupposes that it is bad for someone to have power unless they've done something to earn it, usually something the one who brings this argument agrees with. That idea, too, is completely arbitary and has no basis in reality. It's a figment of your imagination, a delusion, wishful thinking etc.. take your pick. You might want things to work that way, but they don't.

(2) "It's not natural evolution, therefore it's bad". There is no reason to presuppose that natural evolution will bring us anything we desire in future, except basic survival in a form we have no control over. Natural evolution is an undirected process and cares not at all for anything we might want. I see no reason why taking control of our evolution should be bad for us, except that we might make the wrong choices and become extinct. But then, that might happen anyway since there is no guarantee that natural evolution will give us the traits necessary to survive in the future. I consider it desirable to take control of our own evolution. You may disagree, but you don't have any stronger arguments for it than that you consider it undesirable.

(3) "It's not our technology, therefore it's bad". I don't know why this nonsense continues to appear in these debates. Technology exchange, technology theft, technology gifts have happened throughout human history, and though sometimes cultures may have been wiped out by using something in the wrong way, as a rule the receiving culture gained by it rather than lost. I'd bet any amount of money that those who bring forward this argument would sing a different song if the source was something less viscerally repulsive than the Reapers. The only thing I would consider bad is complacency in trying to understand what you're using. And yes, technologies can be dangerous and should be evaluated for undesirable side effects, but their source is irrelevant.

(4) "Uplifting another species is bad". First, you cannot conclude this from one example. Second, you have no evidence that it was bad for the krogan (or for the galaxy) since you do not know what would've happened had they not been uplifted.

(5) "The easy way is less desirable than the hard way". Complete bullsh*t. So.......plowing a field by hand has more merit than using a machine? What utter nonsense is this? The history of technology is the history of humanity trying to make things easier. In any real sense, it is desirable to get things done in an easier way because that frees up resources for other things you might want to do. The idea that this is bad is a result of the Protestant work ethic (and I think there's an equivalent in Confucianism). There is no merit in hard work if the same work can be done with less effort. You might learn skills you otherwise wouldn't, yes, but that benefit vanishes once you've learned it, and even then it's only worth it if those skills are useful enough. I don't need to learn to plow by hand because I'll never need that skill, unless civilization breaks down completely. 

There are a few more nonsensical arguments like this which frequently pop up. I really wish people would stop to think about them before parroting them into a debate. It's as if they're indoctrinated....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:43 .


#7807
Eryri

Eryri
  • Members
  • 1 853 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Yeesh. This nonsense about hypocrisy and "own future" are completely symbolic arguments. They're meaningless.


Maybe, but they are ones that the game's own writers made back in ME1 and ME2, so you can't really blame people for finding this turn-around in the series' tone a bit incongruous.

You adapt, or you die. Such is life. Legion learned it on Rannoch, and you should too.


Actually Legion did both... :whistle:

#7808
Navasha

Navasha
  • Members
  • 3 724 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...

Wow...the nonsense is strong in this thread today.

I consider the following arguments fundamentally invalid and will dismiss them without further notice, regardless of the idea in whose support they're used:


And that right there is all the "proof" I need to show that that Synthesis argument is wrong.   A fundamental refusal to accept that other individuals in the galaxy do not agree with your opinions. 

No person should ever be allowed that kind of power to simply choose to deem their own arguments as "truth" and condemn the entire galaxy to live with their opinion. 

I have expressed my views and you have chosen to dismiss them.   I can accept that.   It is your choice and your decision to do with as you please. 

For any one person to have the power to force their views upon all other life in the galaxy, is very much my definition of evil.   I have never attempted to change your mind and you certainly won't change mine for I too have the power to dismiss your arguments as "invalid". 

#7809
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 189 messages

Navasha wrote...
For any one person to have the power to force their views upon all other life in the galaxy, is very much my definition of evil.

I should have added "power is evil" to the nonsense list. I considered it too obvious, but apparently it's not. Don't you make a distinction between having the power to do something and actually doing it?

#7810
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 189 messages

Navasha wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Wow...the nonsense is strong in this thread today.

I consider the following arguments fundamentally invalid and will dismiss them without further notice, regardless of the idea in whose support they're used:


And that right there is all the "proof" I need to show that that Synthesis argument is wrong.   A fundamental refusal to accept that other individuals in the galaxy do not agree with your opinions. 

No person should ever be allowed that kind of power to simply choose to deem their own arguments as "truth" and condemn the entire galaxy to live with their opinion.

I dismiss those arguments because they're logically invalid *as arguments*. They're mere beliefs with no shred of evidence for their truth, and thus no merit whatsoever in a debate. If you say "I reject Synthesis because I believe X", then I accept that this is a valid choice for you. However, because that's a mere belief and not an argument based on a compelling chain of logic, I dismiss it when it's used as such, and I see no reason whatsoever to take it into account for the choices *I* make.

So far, the only valid argument against Synthesis I've read is "It is generally considered undesirable to do anything to people without their consent". I choose Synthesis nonetheless, for reasons I've explained often, but *that* is an argument I will not dismiss because its truth is evident.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:57 .


#7811
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests
I think that kind of overwhelming power appeals to synthesis and control types, because so many problems (in the real world, in fictional, whatever) are hard to cope with and solve, and it's appealing to find the one-size-fits-all solution. It seems more about a sense of powerlessness more than it is power. I think Destroy types find it easier to deal with crap (but they will acknowledge that is, in fact, crap.. and complain about it.. but in the end, they're fine coping with it).

#7812
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 189 messages

StreetMagic wrote...
I think that kind of overwhelming power appeals to synthesis and control types, because so many problems (in the real world, in fictional, whatever) are hard to cope with and solve, and it's appealing to find the one-size-fits-all solution. It seems more about a sense of powerlessness more than it is power. I think Destroy types find it easier to deal with crap (but they will acknowledge that is, in fact, crap.. and complain about it.. but in the end, they're fine coping with it).

And yet another attempt to write Destroyers as having more merit than those who choose Control or Synthesis. Do you know how sick I'm getting of this? And.....lol, this is a variant of the "the easy way has less merit than the hard way" argument I've dismissed above.

If I have the means to solve a problem, why the hell not use it? As sure as Earth will make another turn in the next 24 hours, there will be new problems popping up looking for a solution. The thing is, those will be *new* problems requiring new kinds of solutions. It will bring humanity forward, able to meet new challenges. Not solving a problem if you can has no merit whatsoever. If the methods used are justified, yes, that we can discuss. Perhaps you believe Control and Synthesis are not justified, and that's ok with me, but that they actually solve problems is a point in their favor. Powerlessness is not a good thing, thrice damn it!

Edit:
If overwhelming power appealed to me, this would be a Control thread. I consider Control problematic because it carries a theme of paternalism and the message "we need a god-analogue to solve our problems". That, too, is not intrinsically bad of course, and even less "evil", but I find it personally somewhat distasteful.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:13 .


#7813
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

Ieldra2 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
I think that kind of overwhelming power appeals to synthesis and control types, because so many problems (in the real world, in fictional, whatever) are hard to cope with and solve, and it's appealing to find the one-size-fits-all solution. It seems more about a sense of powerlessness more than it is power. I think Destroy types find it easier to deal with crap (but they will acknowledge that is, in fact, crap.. and complain about it.. but in the end, they're fine coping with it).

And yet another attempt to write Destroyers as having more merit than those who choose Control or Synthesis. Do you know how sick I'm getting of this?

If I have the means to solve a problem, why the hell not use it? As sure as Earth will make another turn in the next 24 hours, there will be new problems popping up looking for a solution. The thing is, those will be *new* problems requiring new kinds of solutions. It will bring humanity forward, able to meet new challenges. Not solving a problem if you can has no merit whatsoever. If the methods used are justified, yes, that we can discuss. 



The only "merit" I say Destroyers have are better coping skills. That doesn't guarantee much more than that. We value every aspect of the evolutionary/building process. For better or worse. It's a process oriented viewpoint. You're more goal oriented. And you reached your goal. So what does it matter if I say you can't cope or not? You didn't place value in it in the first place.

#7814
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 189 messages

StreetMagic wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
I think that kind of overwhelming power appeals to synthesis and control types, because so many problems (in the real world, in fictional, whatever) are hard to cope with and solve, and it's appealing to find the one-size-fits-all solution. It seems more about a sense of powerlessness more than it is power. I think Destroy types find it easier to deal with crap (but they will acknowledge that is, in fact, crap.. and complain about it.. but in the end, they're fine coping with it).

And yet another attempt to write Destroyers as having more merit than those who choose Control or Synthesis. Do you know how sick I'm getting of this?

If I have the means to solve a problem, why the hell not use it? As sure as Earth will make another turn in the next 24 hours, there will be new problems popping up looking for a solution. The thing is, those will be *new* problems requiring new kinds of solutions. It will bring humanity forward, able to meet new challenges. Not solving a problem if you can has no merit whatsoever. If the methods used are justified, yes, that we can discuss. 


The only "merit" I say Destroyers have are better coping skills. That doesn't guarantee much more than that. We value every aspect of the evolutionary/building process. For better or worse. It's a process oriented viewpoint. You're more goal oriented. And you reached your goal. So what does it matter if I say you can't cope or not? You didn't place value in it in the first place.

It matters because you ascribe a trait you consider undesirable to real people you know nothing about. That is an insult. You have no idea whatsoever of what I'm like in real life and what I am prepared to do or not to do, and generally of any of my skills unrelated to writing posts here on BSN. It's like that guy a few months back who said Destroyers were luddites. How would you feel if I said that?

#7815
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 189 messages
Also, regarding "valuing every aspect of the process": why do you think every aspect should be valued? It comes all down to belief, doesn't it?

#7816
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 293 messages
oh good Old Auldie

#7817
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

Ieldra2 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
I think that kind of overwhelming power appeals to synthesis and control types, because so many problems (in the real world, in fictional, whatever) are hard to cope with and solve, and it's appealing to find the one-size-fits-all solution. It seems more about a sense of powerlessness more than it is power. I think Destroy types find it easier to deal with crap (but they will acknowledge that is, in fact, crap.. and complain about it.. but in the end, they're fine coping with it).

And yet another attempt to write Destroyers as having more merit than those who choose Control or Synthesis. Do you know how sick I'm getting of this?

If I have the means to solve a problem, why the hell not use it? As sure as Earth will make another turn in the next 24 hours, there will be new problems popping up looking for a solution. The thing is, those will be *new* problems requiring new kinds of solutions. It will bring humanity forward, able to meet new challenges. Not solving a problem if you can has no merit whatsoever. If the methods used are justified, yes, that we can discuss. 


The only "merit" I say Destroyers have are better coping skills. That doesn't guarantee much more than that. We value every aspect of the evolutionary/building process. For better or worse. It's a process oriented viewpoint. You're more goal oriented. And you reached your goal. So what does it matter if I say you can't cope or not? You didn't place value in it in the first place.

It matters because you ascribe a trait you consider undesirable to real people you know nothing about. That is an insult. You have no idea whatsoever of what I'm like in real life and what I am prepared to do or not to do, and generally of any of my skills unrelated to writing posts here on BSN. It's like that guy a few months back who said Destroyers were luddites. How would you feel if I said that?


I wouldn't care. I'm not a luddite myself, but I would live with the lifestyle, if forced to. I like the outdoors, camping, archery. It's not an insult, but another side of myself I might be able to tap into.

That aside, I understand I don't know any real details about you -- but I think for you to be pretty set in a Synthesis choice says enough about how you view problem solving and dealing with chaos. It'd be another thing if it was only one of your characters that did this, but you seem to be more of an advocate in general.

#7818
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 413 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...
I dismiss those arguments because they're logically invalid *as arguments*. They're mere beliefs with no shred of evidence for their truth, and thus no merit whatsoever in a debate. If you say "I reject Synthesis because I believe X", then I accept that this is a valid choice for you. However, because that's a mere belief and not an argument based on a compelling chain of logic, I dismiss it when it's used as such, and I see no reason whatsoever to take it into account for the choices *I* make.


I saw no chain of logic in your posts, either. Perhaps you'd like to provide them? And I say that having agreed with more than a few of your points. It's very plain that you are "getting" sick of dealing with arguments the way you talk to people.

Edit: I didn't see at first that this was in the Synthesis thread, so it's more understandable that you don't explain yourself as the explanations are likely somewhere earlier.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:45 .


#7819
Navasha

Navasha
  • Members
  • 3 724 messages
Face it Ieldra2, you are trying to have everything both ways here.

On one hand you try to claim that Synthesis wouldn't "brainwash" anyone or change how they think.
Then on the other hand you completely dismiss the whole "uplifting" of species.

If you suddenly give the Vorcha the processing power of EDI without also changing how they think you are essentially putting the power of a nuclear bomb in the hands of a 2 year old child. Sure, there is no "guarantee" that the 2 year old wouldn't be as responsible as an adult who fully understands that when you push the button millions of people die.

You argue that since there is no guarantee, it is perfectly fine to do so. I on the other hand argue that the dangers of letting the 2 year old play with nuclear fire far outweight any other option.

#7820
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 765 messages
@Nevasha
Wait, where did anyone say Synthesis would not change how people think?

Perspective shifts happen all the time with new informationt, propaganda, or just mental excercises. Why would the added processing and information provided by Synthesis not do that, and if it did why is that a bad thing? I think the problem here is that you're espousing arguments based on beliefs that some of us would question or simply not share.

In addition:
1) Where do people in Synthesis get power metaphorically akin to a nuclear weapon?
2) Why pick on the Vorcha? Other people in Mass Effect treat them like crap, but I saw them fighting, using tech, and hanging out in Sunset Strip like everyone else.

#7821
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

Obadiah wrote...


2) Why pick on the Vorcha? Other people in Mass Effect treat them like crap, but I saw them fighting, using tech, and hanging out in Sunset Strip like everyone else.


Their intelligence levels are pretty basic, I think. For one of the descriptions of the Bloodpack weapons, for example, it has a built in mechanism that loads an armor piercing round every 20 shots or so. Because the Krogan couldn't get the Vorcha to learn how to mod their own weapons. :P

#7822
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 293 messages

StreetMagic wrote...

Obadiah wrote...


2) Why pick on the Vorcha? Other people in Mass Effect treat them like crap, but I saw them fighting, using tech, and hanging out in Sunset Strip like everyone else.


Their intelligence levels are pretty basic, I think. For one of the descriptions of the Bloodpack weapons, for example, it has a built in mechanism that loads an armor piercing round every 20 shots or so. Because the Krogan couldn't get the Vorcha to learn how to mod their own weapons. :P

That has to do with vorcha culture, not inherent intelligence.

#7823
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

Steelcan wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Obadiah wrote...


2) Why pick on the Vorcha? Other people in Mass Effect treat them like crap, but I saw them fighting, using tech, and hanging out in Sunset Strip like everyone else.


Their intelligence levels are pretty basic, I think. For one of the descriptions of the Bloodpack weapons, for example, it has a built in mechanism that loads an armor piercing round every 20 shots or so. Because the Krogan couldn't get the Vorcha to learn how to mod their own weapons. :P

That has to do with vorcha culture, not inherent intelligence.


Culture? Can you clarify? In any case, I'm not even being that serious.. just thought it was a funny description. Technically, it wouldn't be intelligence based, but memory and situational awareness.. I guess.

The Punisher features a secondary barrel that fires one armor-piercing round per main-barrel burst. It was developed by Blood Pack gunsmiths who found that their vorcha recruits frequently forgot to optimize ammo loads in the heat of combat. This configuration makes the process automatic and highly effective at penetrating armor.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:28 .


#7824
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages
Vorcha plan? Ha! Vorcha have reached the peak of their evolution. They are also immune to indoctrination. They are not the sharpest knives in the drawer either. They will probably never invent rockets.

#7825
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages

Obadiah wrote...

@Nevasha
Wait, where did anyone say Synthesis would not change how people think?

Perspective shifts happen all the time with new informationt, propaganda, or just mental excercises. Why would the added processing and information provided by Synthesis not do that, and if it did why is that a bad thing? I think the problem here is that you're espousing arguments based on beliefs that some of us would question or simply not share.

In addition:
1) Where do people in Synthesis get power metaphorically akin to a nuclear weapon?
2) Why pick on the Vorcha? Other people in Mass Effect treat them like crap, but I saw them fighting, using tech, and hanging out in Sunset Strip like everyone else.


Synthesis didn't say how it would change how people would think anywhere. It's more about how people would be able to communicate.