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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#7901
Ieldra

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David7204 wrote...
Which codex entries and scenes are those, precisely?

The ME2 Codex entry about the Singularity, EDI's cut Reaper exposition at the Collector base about mind uploading and destructive analysis and parts of the ending exposition in the leaked script of ME3.

That all of those reference transhumanist themes is possibly accidental, but it is significant that they are referencing technology themes rather than religious ones. I've said more about this in my old thread The Mass Effect trilogy and the descent from science into mysticism.

#7902
David7204

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Ah, I see.

So by, "Codex entries," you meant "a single Codex entry," right?

And by "replaced by religion ones" you mean "not replaced by religious ones at all since none of the entries endorse religious theme."

To top it off, the entry hardly even speaks in a positive tone about transhumanism at all! The tone is, at best, neutral, with the last paragraph associating people who believe in transhumanism as positive as 'cults.' The removal of this entry is if anything an endorsement of transhumanism!

That doesn't even consider the technical data, which states that AI's must be 'brought online' slowly and that they reach conclusions faster than any organic. Have you even considered the possibility that the writers weren't comfortable establishing these as facts in the Mass Effect Universe? That upon writing the geth and EDI and whatnot, they realized that they don't act like superhumans (and didn't want them to) and decided the entry was thus unfitting?

To cap things off, the entry itself is incredibly basic in it's discussion of 'transhumanism.' Pretty much anyone with exposed to science fiction is very familiar with the possibility of the human mind being augmented by technology. It really has little to do with Mass Effect, and thus I can easily imagine the writers simply deciding it's not relevant.

No Ieldra, your assumption that this entry must have been removed because the writers hate transhuman themes is wholly ridiculous and unsubstantiated. And that's only criticism of one of your 'points.'

Modifié par David7204, 27 décembre 2013 - 02:47 .


#7903
Ieldra

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I didn't say they hated it. I said they didn't want their story - and most importantly its main character - to be associated with it. Which is, given the generally techno-skeptical tone of the story and the need to make the main character identifiable for many people, not at all surprising. However, in that case they shouldn't have made Shepard a cyborg in the first place, rather than making them one and then denying the association with nonsensical arguments. Also, were they neutral about it, they would've given me options in the conversation with EDI.

I do concede that all this could just be a result of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. After all, everyone who watches Shepard interpret the Prothean recording on Eden Prime couldn't possibly deny that he is transhuman. But then, "From Ashes" is DLC...

#7904
Ieldra

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David7204 wrote...
And a third. So, why don't you explain what exactly you think a 'transhuman' is, what technology the process entails, and what benefits it would provide.

Look here: http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism

#7905
Mathias

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"Oh hey Reapers! Look, I know you killed all my friends, turned my family into Husks, destroyed my home, and severely crippled my state of living for the next 5-10 years, but thanks to Space Magic I understand you now. So let's let bygones be bygones and just be bros from now on."

#7906
teh DRUMPf!!

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

"Oh hey Reapers! Look, I know you killed all my friends, turned my family into Husks, destroyed my home, and severely crippled my state of living for the next 5-10 years, but thanks to Space Magic I understand you now. So let's let bygones be bygones and just be bros from now on."


It happens in Control too with "lesser" understanding.

And if you're going to ridicule that, ridicule Rannoch peace outcome, too. All of the above applies, save for the husk thing, which is a negligible difference -- dead is dead.

What I see here is players asking others to do what they cannot do themselves: putting personal grievances aside.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 28 décembre 2013 - 04:04 .


#7907
Steelcan

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

"Oh hey Reapers! Look, I know you killed all my friends, turned my family into Husks, destroyed my home, and severely crippled my state of living for the next 5-10 years, but thanks to Space Magic I understand you now. So let's let bygones be bygones and just be bros from now on."


It happens in Control too with "lesser" understanding.

And if you're going to ridicule that, ridicule Rannoch peace outcome, too. All of the above applies, save for the husk thing, which is a negligible difference -- dead is dead.

What I see is here is players asking others to do what they cannot do themselves: putting personal grievances aside.

Destroy does make this whole issue much simpler

#7908
Mathias

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

"Oh hey Reapers! Look, I know you killed all my friends, turned my family into Husks, destroyed my home, and severely crippled my state of living for the next 5-10 years, but thanks to Space Magic I understand you now. So let's let bygones be bygones and just be bros from now on."


It happens in Control too with "lesser" understanding.

And if you're going to ridicule that, ridicule Rannoch peace outcome, too. All of the above applies, save for the husk thing, which is a negligible difference -- dead is dead.

What I see is here is players asking others to do what they cannot do themselves: putting personal grievances aside.


The Geth and Quarian war was different though, for many reasons. The entire purpose of the Reapers was to obliterate all advanced civilization all the way to extinction, and their methods of doing so were chaotic and horrifying. The circumstances with the Geth were a lot different. You cannot compare a race of synthetics who fought out of self defense, towards an AI who's spent millions of years killing and huskifying trillions of people due to his failed logic.

Their methods were different.
Their goals were different.
Their way of thinking was different.
And the length of time and amount of people each race killed, is comparing an inch to a mile.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 28 décembre 2013 - 04:09 .


#7909
AlanC9

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The geth killed, what, 99.8% of quarians? I don't think the fact that they were created to be toasters rather than extermination machines would strike anyone as being particularly important.

#7910
teh DRUMPf!!

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

The Geth and Quarian war was different though, for many reasons.


Oh? This should be good...


The entire purpose of the Reapers was to obliterate all advanced civilization all the way to extinction, and their methods of doing so were chaotic and horrifying.


As if to say the way one commits genocide makes any difference, and the geth's version was Kosher because they didn't reanimate corpses. It's not like friends or family of murder victims ever say "well at least you didn't desecrate his corpse after you did it, so credit where it's due." It's arguing semantics at the end of the day: dead is dead.

You cannot compare a race of synthetics who fought out of self defense, towards an AI who's spent millions of years killing and huskifying trillions of people due to his failed logic.


How many quarians know the whole story behind the geth's rebellion?

And, more importantly, will knowing the story make quarian victims' family/loved ones forgive-and-forget so easily?

That quarian kid Jona lost both his parents to the geth. Good luck selling him that the geth's reasons were forgivable (I imagine the response will be about the same as the one I get from Destroyers when I remind them the Reapers were merely pawns in the great scheme of things -- that response being a healthy mix of both denial and apathy).

*edit*

That brings me to another point: geth actually had free-will when they nearly wiped out the quarians; Reapers did not.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 28 décembre 2013 - 05:09 .


#7911
Ieldra

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Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

"Oh hey Reapers! Look, I know you killed all my friends, turned my family into Husks, destroyed my home, and severely crippled my state of living for the next 5-10 years, but thanks to Space Magic I understand you now. So let's let bygones be bygones and just be bros from now on."


It happens in Control too with "lesser" understanding.

And if you're going to ridicule that, ridicule Rannoch peace outcome, too. All of the above applies, save for the husk thing, which is a negligible difference -- dead is dead.

What I see is here is players asking others to do what they cannot do themselves: putting personal grievances aside.

Destroy does make this whole issue much simpler

Simpler does not equal better.

#7912
David7204

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I didn't say they hated it. I said they didn't want their story - and most importantly its main character - to be associated with it. Which is, given the generally techno-skeptical tone of the story and the need to make the main character identifiable for many people, not at all surprising. However, in that case they shouldn't have made Shepard a cyborg in the first place, rather than making them one and then denying the association with nonsensical arguments. Also, were they neutral about it, they would've given me options in the conversation with EDI.

I do concede that all this could just be a result of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. After all, everyone who watches Shepard interpret the Prothean recording on Eden Prime couldn't possibly deny that he is transhuman. But then, "From Ashes" is DLC...

First of all, a storyteller is absolutely under no obligation whatsoever to explore a theme they don't wish to explore. All your talk of your dislike of religion, and look how much you sound like a creationist complaining about a science textbook. They didn't include it, so they're surpressing it? Explain to me what exactly the problem is with a narrative featuring a character or characters who are 'cyborgs' and yet not focusing on it because it's of no importance to the narrative and no particular significance within the story.

So yes, Shepard is not particularly associated as a 'transhuman.' So the hell what? I'm seeing utterly nothing here but you complaining because a theme you're interested in wasn't explored in the story.

Modifié par David7204, 28 décembre 2013 - 10:05 .


#7913
Ieldra

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Yes, I do dislike it. Isn't that enough reason for complaining?

I think, however, that I also have reasons that go beyond mere dislike. Particularly, that the religious aspect was forced into the ending against the prevailing tone of the earlier games, while anything related to Shepard's very obvious transhuman aspect, which they had since ME2, was not just not explored, but actively rejected as being significant.

You see, of course not every SF story must have themes I like, but if a story goes into a certain direction (in this case, in ME2) and then the last instalment goes off into a completely different one, exploring themes I find inappropriate for this particular story with no advance warning, I see a reason for complaining. I summarized several similar occurrences in my review thread. ME1 and ME2 made a promise (several, in fact), and ME3 betrayed it. That's how it feels to me.

I think the project lead was so focused on this "saviors and sacrifices" theme that he designed the main story arc around it with a significant level of disregard for what came before. As I've often said, writers don't like to be bound by what they've written yesterday, but refusing to be bound thusly in an ongoing story will result in dissonances like this. ME3 should not have been regarded as primarily a self-containted story by the people who made it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:11 .


#7914
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I did find it odd that Shepard voiced no curiosity at all about how they brought her/him back to life throughout ME2 and ME3 and then acted all surprised about it when they raided Cerberus headquarters. Then suddenly she's concerned: "Am I just some kind of VI who thinks she's Shepard?" Especially after finding out they were nothing but meat and tubes. I think I would be a bit curious. Or was Shepard simply in a very large river running through Egypt? Or was that a theme that was too deep for the story?

In before David says those are stupid questions.

They're not stupid questions. It's part of the character. Is it something we should give a damn about? How does it affect the character other than act as a morality guide (red eyes & scars -- Dr. Chakwas tells Shepard to stop being a realist and to be an optimist.)?

Then Shepard gets further augmentations like skin, muscle and bone weaves. How does this affect her/his well being? Or is this simply for "hit points" and game mechanics?

All of this simply gets hand waved by the writers like going to Macy's and buying a pair of socks.

#7915
David7204

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It's enough reason for complaining, sure. It's not enough reason to make accusations of the series abandoning science or anything of that sort.

What themes of 'transhumanism is good or important' are present in ME 1 and ME 2? If anything, I see somewhat of the opposite. Shepard is completely unchanged by Lazarus. She gains no special abilities or advantages, and suffers no penalties. (All of which I'm glad for, by the way.) That seems to me to be a pretty clear message that whatever 'transhuman' elements within Shepard's body are of little significance.

Top that off with the very casual way cybernetics and other such technologies are discussed. Gene therapy and implants are regarded as routine.

So where exactly are the themes of 'transhumanism is important and significant' in ME 1 and ME 2?

Modifié par David7204, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:24 .


#7916
Ieldra

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David7204 wrote...
So where exactly are the themes of 'transhumanism is important and significant' in ME 1 and ME 2?

By making Shepard transhuman. In ME1 they got the Cipher and in ME2 they were heavily augmented. As for the significance - they are, after all, the protagonist. What could be more signficant?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:30 .


#7917
David7204

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Is that it?

#7918
Ieldra

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Well, there is also the cybernetic immortality of the collective Reaper minds, as per Legion's explanation in ME2, Saren's statement about "the strength of both, the weaknesses of neither, biotics, etc.. etc.. "Merging man and machine" is a transhumanist theme, with all the good and the bad stuff attached. And then ME3 swept the good stuff under the rug and kept the bad, which is why Synthesis comes across as so odd to many.

#7919
AlanC9

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Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...
So where exactly are the themes of 'transhumanism is important and significant' in ME 1 and ME 2?

By making Shepard transhuman. In ME1 they got the Cipher and in ME2 they were heavily augmented. As for the significance - they are, after all, the protagonist. What could be more signficant?


So Bio should have run with that early ME2 idea of bringing Shepard back as an android, maybe?

#7920
Ieldra

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AlanC9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...
So where exactly are the themes of 'transhumanism is important and significant' in ME 1 and ME 2?

By making Shepard transhuman. In ME1 they got the Cipher and in ME2 they were heavily augmented. As for the significance - they are, after all, the protagonist. What could be more signficant?


So Bio should have run with that early ME2 idea of bringing Shepard back as an android, maybe?

Why that? No, they should've made Shepard's new bio-synthetic nature a topic in the story. It would've fit the intended main theme (organics vs. synthetics) perfectly, don't you think? What would've been more appropriate, given that they're the protagonist *and* already embody it? Instead, the only narratively significant successful example of bio-synthetic life are - the Reapers. Then there's the Cipher, which actually does illustrate Shepard's transhuman qualities. But - it's not part of the main story since it's DLC. I can't be the only one who sees a pattern here.

For some reason, someone regarded it as of utmost importance that Shepard was considered "fully human", void of any association with transhumanist themes. Which would've been perfectly fine, if Shepard didn't already have transhuman qualities from *both* predecessor games, which had to be swept under the rug, to the point of creating a false new definition of the term.

As I see it, the impression that ME3's Shepard is not the same person as the protagonist of ME1 and ME2 is not limited to characterization.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 décembre 2013 - 04:38 .


#7921
AlanC9

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I just brought that up because it's known to have been under consideration. Or was the term used actually "cyborg"? That would be compatible with your proposal, right?

#7922
Ieldra

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AlanC9 wrote...
I just brought that up because it's known to have been under consideration. Or was the term used actually "cyborg"? That would be compatible with your proposal, right?

I don't know what else was under consideration for Shepard, but Shepard *is* a cyborg. They just didn't use the term, probably to avoid negative associations from certain other products of mainstream media. .

#7923
JonathonPR

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For me Mass Effect always had at most a very soft transhumanism. Project overlord was good but transhumanism is not just that the technology exists but that it is used and how it is used. This past year brain to brain link was successful in linking two mice and greatly improving problem solving abilities along with apparent sharing of memories. Other than some nice prosthetics and a little gene fixing to prevent hereditary diseases or improve marginal average performance of soldiers there is not much. Deus Ex has some more advanced stuff that would be nice but I really would prefer wide spread integration with more advancement. It should be as jarring as someone from the 1900s suddenly being dropped in the modern world with the internet and smartphones. The standard for me is in the Transmetropolitan comic series and the Eclipse Phase RPG.

That is why I reject the synthesis ending. It does not feel like it was correctly implemented. http://www.eclipsephase.com/
http://en.wikipedia....ansmetropolitan
http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/
http://www.cthulhutech.com/

#7924
sH0tgUn jUliA

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The augmentations part I can almost handwave. They've been around the galaxy for centuries by this time. The Quarians were loaded with them, and it wasn't just their suits. We have biotic amps that were surgically implanted in pretty much all races. Routine genetic screening for most every disease except in the case of Ardat Yakshi syndrome which is a needed mook generator for ME3. Cloned organs, cloned limbs. President Huerta who lives with a VI in his brain.

But Shepard? Why not explore the meat and tubes thing? Why not have Shepard explore Lazarus with Lawson? How did you manage it? How much of me is actually organic? How long will this stuff last? Is it live or is it Memorex? Granted this is a video game and it probably would have bogged down the story. We have mooks to shoot and an ADD crowd to deal with. "Come on, come on, do I have to do this? I want to kill something!" Patience, little one.

#7925
SwobyJ

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Daemul wrote...

Ieldra, your post has just reminded me of EDI's stupid definition of Transhuman in ME3. According to her, every inch of your body can be robotic but as long as your brain is organic you don't count as a Transhuman. Which writer in the Bioware team came up with that crap? It's like they were pushing an agenda.


Don't agree. Even transhumanists believe this. That we won't be truly transhuman until we are able to upload ourselves into a cybernetic/synthetic body/virtual space and stay there. Everything else is simply on the 'path' to transhumanism.

Shepard entering the Geth Consensus, for example, is very much the closest that any human in Mass Effect comes to outright transhuman state. It's still not enough though.

Only in Control and Synthesis does he become utterly transhuman. In Control, it is in the more conventional thought (thoughts in an artificial brain), and in Synthesis, it is in the more transcendant religion-ish/animism-ish mode of thought (a 'spirit' that inspires everyone thought networked connections). Matrix films also take the latter route at the end.

Your brain is what directs everything of your identification as human. You could even be in a friggin Dalek (to reference a fairly recent episode of Who), but as long as there's human organic brain functions (aka the limits and possibilities that organic minds contain), you can consider yourself a human, at least enough to maintain that level of existence and perspective.

As soon as cybernetics overcome the organic portion, you've lost your humanity, but also gained your transhuman state. For Mass Effect, Control turns Shepard into something 'more', but still guided by the record of what Shepard was. Synthesis removes the role of 'Shepard', but uses his mind (and like later series info indicates, his DNA as well) helps synthetics and organics come to what appears to be a level of understanding.



Of course, this is still subjective. To some people, we're already transhuman. I can imagine it all coming down to personal interpretation. By the time of ME3, perhaps most consider 'transhuman' to instead = 'moving past human brain qualities'. We no longer boost our brains or fix them, etc, but instead move past the human mind itself. As such, the restrictions and identifiers of 'human' no longer matter.

Synthesis does move past transhumanism and into a whole 'transorganic + transsynthetic' deal though. It's a larger princible of transcendence, and most people are not willing to 'jump' into such a thing without 'guidance' beforehand ;). Control is more about the more grounded idea of transhumanism itself; that is, keeping aspects of who we are while altering ourselves into something more, instead of transforming into something almost entirely different and new (even with that being the ultimate goal of transhumanist philosophy).


Anyway, I'd say that the whole series just wants to present the questions in a gradual manner. Shepard of ME1, regardless of what either of us prefer, has a mindset that fits more gamers than otherwise. Kill dose robots.

Over time, we're given other perspectives, which we can listen to or reject... and if we listen to them, we can agree or disagree... and if we reject them, we can kill or spare the messengers. Even Indoctrination, taken from certain perspectives, can be thoughts as just the way that Reapers get certain agents to understand what problem they're dealing with. Even Huskification, if some theories are right, just transfers the organic mind to elsewhere, already set to be preserved in Reaper form/virtual world.

We just don't know enough info *yet*. We'll need another, more wide-in-moral-scope, character to help us know these things. For now, in 99%+ of the series, we have Shepard in whatever form, and Shepard IS more innately a Destroyer who would reject synthetics without our continuous player-choice intervention and plot guidance into chances to learn more about their realm.

My prediction is that the next game will investigate more. That the Control and Synthesis (especially Synthesis) options are a bit premature in ME3, but they also have a role to play and we're not going to be severely punished for making any of the choices, except maybe if they were Low EMS. Assuming sequel of some form.

I don't think Bioware has an anti-tech agenda, and I don't remotely think they're against Synthesis. It's the Reapers themselves that are a problem, regardless of your choice at the end, and we have to make a decision on what we morally/virtually/literally want to do about them, their impact on the galaxy, and their past and possible future actions. That's something beyond Shepard's depth, but he has to do something, and he knows that. It's also something beyond most players' depth, but we're forced to do something (or turn off the game...), and we know that Bioware isn't significantly changing the scenario for us just because we were or are upset about it.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 28 décembre 2013 - 08:37 .