9088 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well, then we are in agreement.

[David7204]

Good.

I think I'm going to copy and paste this and start a new thread.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I want to talk a bit about supposedly 'smart' protagonists.

There have been countless posts on this forum suggesting that Shepard or one of her allies solve problems by 'doing research.' Kill the Reapers by 'doing research.' Control them by 'doing research.' Develop some super-duper weapons by 'doing research.' Cure Thane by 'doing research.' When I ask people what Shepard should have been doing when they complain about incarceration, pretty much the only answer I hear is Shepard 'doing research' on the Reapers. The list goes on.

There's a reason why conflicts with great enemies are solved by violence, not by 'doing research.' And a reason why people need to give up this idea of protagonists solving problems by 'doing research' or whatever it is they imagine smart people do. It's poor writing.

All the things the audiences associate with science -beakers of bubbling chemicals, equations on whiteboards, lasers and lab coats - those are all just props. The real science is the thought. And the thought is invisible. The audience can't see it. Can't perceive it. Can't appreciate it.

Technology begins with an idea. An applied principle or series of principles. And once the ideas are in place...it's just a matter of work. The tremendous and often difficult process of building and refining that applied principle. But work is work. There's no interesting themes in a villain being defeated with work.

So when a problem is solved by 'science' and science alone...it's really nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina. One moment a person has no idea how to solve a problem. The next they do. One moment the galaxy is helpless as the Reapers are on the cusp of invading. The next moment Shepard comes up with an idea for a super-weapon. Or super-technology. Or super-whatever. After which, it's just a process of refining the idea and building the thing. And even if the weapon is actually somehow scientifically and logistally possible against the Reapers, it would be ridiculous. Because where's the conflict in that premise? Where's the drama? Where's the themes? There is none.

So allthrough scientific work requires intelligence and experience, it's thematically no different than other work. And conflicts solved by work are boring. How thematically ridiculous would it be to have the Reapers be defeated because a conflict lasting millions of years was solved because factories produced a certain amount of weapons? Because shipyards built a certain number of ships? Incredibly ridiculous and incredibly lame. Scientific work is ultimately no different.

Watch Breaking Bad? A protagonist hailed as someone who solves their problems with science. But look carefully. When the audience knows about the plan beforehand, Walter never comes up with the idea himself. Every time the plan is known ahead of time to the viewer, the original idea comes from somewhere else.

Walter builds a battery in the desert...after Jesse suggests it. Walter breaks into the evidence room using a magnet...after Jesse suggests a magnet. Robs the train using a clever weight idea...after Jesse suggests the method how. Why? Because the writers understand that a person just coming up with an idea and successfully applying it is off the table. Because it's boring. Because it carries no themes.

This can be summed up in an a priori response, based on subjective:

It's your opinion David. Just because you can't find value in it doesn't mean no one else can.

I actually agree with this

A scientific breakthrough in a lab might be a bit more plausible to be a way to combat the Reapers, but it wouldn't work in a story like ME and it definately wouldn't work for a protagonist like Shepard.

How to deal with the Reapers was probably one of the biggest issues the writers had to deal with, and I hope they used the Crucible siply because they didn't have any other ideas and were on a schedule.

[Ieldra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Yet a conflict solved by building a super weapon with magical factories was not work? "I may have found a way to defeat the reapers. It's a Prothean super weapon." We're missing only one component - the catalyst. It just so happened to fit perfectly on the Citadel. I want to know where those factories that were building it were, because the reapers targeted every major manufacturing region in the galaxy straight away. But it all gets rectified because of Kai Leng, right? "Not so fast! Someone wants to speak with you."

David, you can have a smart protagonist. The protagonist can solve problems through science and research. It does make more sense than having a protagonist with a room temperature IQ who can't even figure out that Asari can reproduce with their own species.

Anyone can write a dumb protagonist and a dumb antagonist.

Don't tell me that having a smart protagonist is bad writing and is stupid. Having smart protagonists requires better writing and a smarter writer. A smart protagonist ups the ante. The writer is simply going to have to throw better piles of dog do do in the way of the protagonist accomplishing their goals. Also the writer is going to have to write a more sophisticated antagonist.

I can't express how much I agree with this. A few comments:

The Crucible plot as such does work, exactly because building it is written as a great achievement, or at least it was intended to come across that way. It is rarely on-screen because showing people work on it for more than half a minute is boring, yes, but it is nonetheless essential to make it plausible that we can stop the Reapers. It only ceases to work when the missing part turns out to be the MEU's god-analogue.

Also, there are quite a few examples of science heroes. Most appropriately, they're often found in science fiction. Nonetheless, smart protagonists don't need to be scientists. They need to be smart within their fields and have a common-sense level of intelligence in everything else - exactly what Shepard repeatedly fails to show. Tactical brilliance? The plans always come from others. Common sense? "The Citadel? The fight's here", "Losing Thessia wasn't on the table", "Asari can mate within their own species?" I wouldn't have minded some of the autodialogue nearly as much had something smart come out of Shepard's mouth.

We are supposed to identify with our protagonists. Players have different preferences, but I find identifying with an idiot impossible. I'd have my protagonists occasionally say something so intelligent I wouldn't have thought of it, rather than so idiotic I wouldn't have thought of it. Of course, that would require a smart writer...

Some of the science in ME3, particularly the Synthesis exposition, is indicative of what happens if you put ignorant writers on the task. "Biology? Er.....wasn't that this thing with DNA?" "Evolution? Yeah, I know about that. We'are all getting better. Right?" And for the possibility that this was intentionally stupid - in that case I'd have even less respect for the writer. Not doing the research and remaining ignorant about basic facts of the science which appears in your story makes you a bad writer and wrong for the job, but it's not a character flaw, just incompetence. Intentionally pandering to ignorance, though, that always earns my deepest contempt.

[David7204]

The Crucible is stupid, and it doesn't work. It was never essential. And having the Crucible turn out to be a Reaper killer with no other effects or consequences would have been tremendously poor writing. Slighty better than the current endings? Maybe. Maybe not. In any case, it's wholly unacceptable as any kind of quality storytelling.

Ieldra, you've said quite a few things I've found "so idiotic I wouldn't have thought of it." Quite a few things. I'd be happy to review them if you'd like. Just like every other character in every other story in existence, yes, Shepard has lines here and there I don't particuarly like. Construing that as 'repeatable fails to show common sense' is laughable. Shepard overwhelmingly speaks very well and very wisely.

Modifié par David7204, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:00 .

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...
Shepard overwhelmingly speaks very well and very wisely.

:o:o
Tell me you weren't serious. If that's your idea of "well and wisely", I'd hate to see your "stupid".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:25 .

[David7204]

I'm seeing it right here. Much of Shepard's dialogue is the best I know of any fiction. And the smartest I know of.

Modifié par David7204, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:26 .

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...
Much of Shepard's dialogue is the best I know of any fiction. And the smartest I know of.

*chuckles*
You do notice that you couldn't have said anything better to discredit yourself, right? Your experience with fiction must be extremely limited...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:53 .

[wolfhowwl]

David7204 wrote...

I'm seeing it right here. Much of Shepard's dialogue is the best I know of any fiction. And the smartest I know of.

Unreal.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

I'm seeing it right here. Much of Shepard's dialogue is the best I know of any fiction. And the smartest I know of. 

Jamie Lannister, A Clash of Kings...

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 décembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[David7204]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

I'm unsure how this quote is meant to relate to me or anything I said. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

I'm unsure how this quote is meant to relate to me or anything I said. 

David7204 wrote...

I'm seeing it right here. Much of Shepard's dialogue is the best I know of any fiction. And the smartest I know of. 

Eddard Stark, Game of Thrones...

“The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid.” 

[David7204]

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Much of Shepard's dialogue is the best I know of any fiction. And the smartest I know of.

*chuckles*
You do notice that you couldn't have said anything better to discredit yourself, right? Your experience with fiction must be extremely limited...

Holy Emperor I'm on the same side as Ieldra in something....

These are dark times!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because most people don't have heroism sticks firmly lodged up their asses like you?

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones...

“I have a realistic grasp of my own strengths and weaknesses. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind… and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge. That’s why I read so much, Jon Snow.” 

This will never stop now david.

Never.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Darth Brotarian wrote...


This will never stop now david.

Never.

But... but what about all the wonder ful dia----

Nope can't do it.

[Ieldra]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones...

“I have a realistic grasp of my own strengths and weaknesses. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind… and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge. That’s why I read so much, Jon Snow.” 

This will never stop now david.

Never.

Perhaps he's internalized Mao Zedong instead: "To read too many books is harmful".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

But it's ok because he's heroic!

Hero's are perfect, remember?

[David7204]

That's true. They don't.

Sometimes I wonder to myself. Could it be a search for absolution? Sedation?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

That's true. They don't.

Sometimes I wonder to myself. Could it be a search for absolution? Sedation?

An irritating guy who thinks he knows how the world works and how stories work because he gets a power trip from playing a video game?

Yeah, that's the most fitting description I can think of.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

That's true. They don't.

Sometimes I wonder to myself. Could it be a search for absolution? Sedation?

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less. . .A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

-- Varys, A clash of kings.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 décembre 2013 - 10:52 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Even as a defender of Shepard myself, David's statements are just... so bad on levels of being fanboy denial.

David basically wants nothing but fiction to be anything but mary-sueing for his own fantasy.

[Cainhurst Crow]

You know I wouldn't have so much of a problem if he didn't just try to say shepard's dialogue was the best in the whole of collective fiction, then decided to take a dump on a entire series of fictional works to try and defend his point.

It's so freaking simple. "I like shepard's dialogue better then most other fictions dialouge". Why does he need to turn a subjective into an objective and not own up to that?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 décembre 2013 - 11:02 .