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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#7976
MassivelyEffective0730

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know I wouldn't have so much of a problem if he didn't just try to say shepard's dialogue was the best in the whole of collective fiction, then decided to take a dump on a entire series of fictional works to try and defend his point.

It's so freaking simple. "I like shepard's dialogue better then most other fictions dialouge". Why does he need to turn a subjective into an objective and not own up to that?


Because that's how David is. He makes the standards, and the standards are based on his for a reason. When good things exist, it's because of him and people like him, and his standards would be true regardless of whether he believed in them or not.

#7977
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know I wouldn't have so much of a problem if he didn't just try to say shepard's dialogue was the best in the whole of collective fiction, then decided to take a dump on a entire series of fictional works to try and defend his point.

It's so freaking simple. "I like shepard's dialogue better then most other fictions dialouge". Why does he need to turn a subjective into an objective and not own up to that?

I'm still wondering why y'all keep replying to him.

#7978
MassivelyEffective0730

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J. Reezy wrote...

I'm still wondering why y'all keep replying to him.


Think of it like a pinata.

You whack it hard enough and long enough and all the sugary stuff comes out.

#7979
Jarl Johnnie Walker

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

I'm still wondering why y'all keep replying to him.


Think of it like a pinata.

You whack it hard enough and long enough and all the sugary stuff comes out.




Relevant.

#7980
Mr.House

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David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.

#7981
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.


I liked the part where all the HEROIC characters died for their stupidity.

It felt... just.

#7982
Mr.House

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.


I liked the part where all the HEROIC characters died for their stupidity.

It felt... just.

Can't be a Stark without pulling a really stupid stunt that gets you killed because HONOR.

#7983
MassivelyEffective0730

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.


I liked the part where all the HEROIC characters died for their stupidity.

It felt... just.


It's glorious.

The HERO's are getting what they deserve...

Their head on a pike, and their pathetic notions of morality and honor and goodness cast aside in futility.

#7984
Mr.House

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.


I liked the part where all the HEROIC characters died for their stupidity.

It felt... just.


It's glorious.

The HERO's are getting what they deserve...

Their head on a pike, and their pathetic notions of morality and honor and goodness cast aside in futility.

KING OF THE NORTH! Tis was glorious.

#7985
Ieldra

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Perhaps we should make an effort to keep this thread at least *somewhat* on topic.

Regarding stupidity and appropriateness: compare the implementation of the idea of the merging of man and machine in ME3's Synthesis with the one in DX:HR!

#7986
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David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Maybe you should read it and find out for yourself.

Oh, and Synthesis is a ridiculous ending. Figured at least one post on this page might as well be on-topic.

#7987
MassivelyEffective0730

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps we should make an effort to keep this thread at least *somewhat* on topic.

Regarding stupidity and appropriateness: compare the implementation of the idea of the merging of man and machine in ME3's Synthesis with the one in DX:HR!


Technically, in the ME-verse, transhumanism already exists. It's also optional. Maybe not to the physical extent of what Synthesis offers.

My thoughts on the issue are more to do with seeing the Catalyst as a really old HAL 9000.

Granted, my belief is that the entire concept of the ending was something not appropriate for Mass Effect.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 29 décembre 2013 - 12:32 .


#7988
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Mr.House wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.


I liked the part where all the HEROIC characters died for their stupidity.

It felt... just.

Can't be a Stark without pulling a really stupid stunt that gets you killed because HONOR.


"Hey bro we can totally keep this from spiralling out of control if you back me up with this coup!"
Ned: NO! HONORRRRRR! *dead*

"Hey this war isn't exactly going well but you can keep your vassals in line if you take him hostage"
Robb: No! HONORRRRRRRR demands he die! *cluster fauk*

"Hey maybe you shouldn't break your word just because you tapped that?"
Robb(Again!): NO! HONORRRR DEMANDS I MARRY HER! *Dead*

Roose: They were all just so very stupid.
Littlefinger: I actually almost felt bad about betraying them, it was just so easy.
Varys: And this is why I'm going with the mail order Dragon.

#7989
Daemul

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The things I've heard about Game of Thrones have been, at best, mediocre. If it was what I expect it is, I wonder why it's popular.

Because people prefer reading well done stories with complex characters.


I liked the part where all the HEROIC characters died for their stupidity.

It felt... just.


I'm not gonna lie, this is the main reason I love the series, the naivete of the heroic characters gets them punished like it would in real life. None of this crap you see in most movies and video games where the hero's succeed no matter what, get the girl and ride off into the sunset. 

#7990
Mangalores

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

...
Technically, in the ME-verse, transhumanism already exists. It's also optional. Maybe not to the physical extent of what Synthesis offers.

...


Precisely. The problem is that Synthesis doesn't logically conclude to do what Starchild think it does. So we merge all the nano tech over there with all the DNA goo over there and have harmony, peace and understanding... why?

If I blow up the Reapers I know what happens, if I control the Reapers I have maybe a 50/50 chance to know what happens, if I do Synthesis none has a friggin idea what that is supposed to mean because it uses sience in the wrong way and the propagated effects are not really an implicit effect of the suggested solution. So what if we have Synthetic-organic hybrids? We call such things cyborgs and they do and think whatever we like.

In essence Synthesis can only work if it's an implicit control ending aka you just brainwashed everyone and everything to a specific way of thinking. We have plent of SF classics about that, most if not all of them being dystopias...

#7991
Ieldra

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Mangalores wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

...
Technically, in the ME-verse, transhumanism already exists. It's also optional. Maybe not to the physical extent of what Synthesis offers.

...


Precisely. The problem is that Synthesis doesn't logically conclude to do what Starchild think it does. So we merge all the nano tech over there with all the DNA goo over there and have harmony, peace and understanding... why?

If I blow up the Reapers I know what happens, if I control the Reapers I have maybe a 50/50 chance to know what happens, if I do Synthesis none has a friggin idea what that is supposed to mean because it uses sience in the wrong way and the propagated effects are not really an implicit effect of the suggested solution. So what if we have Synthetic-organic hybrids? We call such things cyborgs and they do and think whatever we like.

In essence Synthesis can only work if it's an implicit control ending aka you just brainwashed everyone and everything to a specific way of thinking. We have plent of SF classics about that, most if not all of them being dystopias...

Well...no.

The first thing about Synthesis to understand is that it's not about universal harmony and peace. It's about being on the same level, so that conflicts, which will inevitably arise, don't lead to the extinction of one side. On the synthetic side, "understanding" doesn't guarantee a conflict-free state but it is conducive to a state where the chance of talking things out is greater. On the organic side, the upgrades bring them up to a synthetic-like level of capability.

The flaws in Synthesis do not lie in the concept, but in the execution and the phrasing. "A new....DNA", the "final evolution", "join your essence with the Crucible", all nonsense.

Also, a transhumanist utopia it isn't. Ask any transhumanist, and you'll find that the freedom to choose how to change your body and mind - or not - is a core concept. I've interpreted Synthesis as giving that freedom (back) in the end, but it comes at the price of one forced change. It's kind of starting a transhumanist future by betraying its spirit. As a consequentialist, I can live with it, but I don't think anyone can really be comfortable with it, nor are we meant to be. 

#7992
ruggly

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps we should make an effort to keep this thread at least *somewhat* on topic.

Regarding stupidity and appropriateness: compare the implementation of the idea of the merging of man and machine in ME3's Synthesis with the one in DX:HR!


I haven't finished Deus Ex: HR, and I don't think I ever will.  I'm having a hard time getting into it.  But I'm assuming that at least Deus Ex at least has an ounce of logic in the way that it works?  Guess I'll watch it on youtube sometime.  But then again, Deux Ex has the advantage of leading up to the endings. 

#7993
Daemul

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I would advise you to play the first two Deus Ex games as well, since they touch on the same themes.

#7994
Obadiah

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Mangalores wrote...
...
The problem is that Synthesis doesn't logically conclude to do what Starchild think it does. So we merge all the nano tech over there with all the DNA goo over there and have harmony, peace and understanding... why?
...

Why:
Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence. But these improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, they must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

Result:
Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology.

My understanding:
Organics no longer need Synthetics to improve themselves because, in Synthesis, they are as perfected as they are going to be with synthetic technology (so no AI slavery), and thus Synthetics are free to evolve past their original limitations without coming into conflict with organics.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 décembre 2013 - 04:58 .


#7995
Ieldra

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ruggly wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps we should make an effort to keep this thread at least *somewhat* on topic.

Regarding stupidity and appropriateness: compare the implementation of the idea of the merging of man and machine in ME3's Synthesis with the one in DX:HR!


I haven't finished Deus Ex: HR, and I don't think I ever will.  I'm having a hard time getting into it.  But I'm assuming that at least Deus Ex at least has an ounce of logic in the way that it works?  Guess I'll watch it on youtube sometime.  But then again, Deux Ex has the advantage of leading up to the endings. 

I have only one major problem with the world of DX:HR: many of those augmentations would be more versatile if they were *not* built into the human body, as would their users be more versatile. For instance, if you have a built-in weapon, you'll not be allowed to go where weapons aren't permitted while you could just leave it behind if it wasn't built-in. Also, the same functionality as a gadget makes it usable by any number of people and you could give to someone else. One of the missions actually makes that point - sadly without discussing it further. 

Basically, the passive augmentations - enhanced senses, locator devices, improvement of reaction time - make sense, as well as the social enhancement and others improving normal human capabilities without affecting your appearance (which is where they go with DX1's nano-augmentations). Built-in weapons only make sense if they're detachable, which Adam Jensen's don't appear to be and if they were, you could ask why build them into the body in the first place. Also, very situational augmentations are a waste of resources since 98% of the time you'll just carry them around unused, while a detached version could be passed to someone who needs it.

I'm willing to live with that since Adam Jensen is supposed to be a kind of augmented jack-of-all-trades for gameplay reasons, but it would've been desirable to discuss the practical disadvantages of built-in enhancements as well as other everyday stuff. For instance: how is sex for an augmented person like Jensen? .

Compared to ME3's problems, that's minor though, and while the DXHR's endings were implemented with the simplistic "press button ABC" mechanic nobody really likes and the epilogue is overly preachy, they fit the story perfectly, and the developers admitted they had planned something more complex - something more in the way DX1 did things - which was never done because they ran out of time. 

One of the endings - the one thematically similar to Synthesis - has Jensen say: "For the first time in history, we have the opportunity to steal fire from the gods. We might as well get good at it". ME3's Synthesis appears as if the writer wanted it to carry the same theme, while forgetting that it takes considerable more effort to make it fit the MEU. Also, DXHR didn't inappropriately push religious aspects into it at the last moment.

BTW, I strongly recommend you give DXHR another chance. It has easily the most natural gameplay I've seen in a game of its kind for a long time. And if you can stand the old look, also play DX1. DX:IW is somewhat controversial though. The story is ok but it plays like a bad console port.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 décembre 2013 - 03:10 .


#7996
ruggly

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I'll give it another shot, but the steam cloud lost all of my saves so now I have to start alll overrrrrr and it's not going to be fun.

#7997
Ieldra

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ruggly wrote...
I'll give it another shot, but the steam cloud lost all of my saves so now I have to start alll overrrrrr and it's not going to be fun.

A hint: if you have the regular version, you can get the Director's Cut for a very low price, and it's signifcantly easier since in the lower two difficulties (of three) you have two re-loading batteries instead of one.

#7998
ruggly

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Cool, will look into it.

#7999
Daemul

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If you're interested you can also watch this conversation taken from Deus Ex:Invisible War where JC Helios outlines his vision of a posthuman civilisation



You can also check out the Helios ending from the first Deus Ex



I've always seen the Control ending as the Helios ending of ME3.

#8000
ruggly

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Daemul wrote...

I've always seen the Control ending as the Helios ending of ME3.


How interesting would it have been for ME3 control to have Shepard keep their form (or use the AI body concept art) but be completely detached from everything still.