9088 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Well, organics can't get there without synthetic upgrades, which is exactly the point of Synthesis. I concede there's an imbalance though: synthetics don't appear to gain anything significant from the Synthesis. That "understanding" mentioned by the Catalyst is really nothing you'd need such a big change for, you could just program it in.

I'm sure you're aware that there's a semi-respectable argument that you can't ever achieve anything like human consciousness via programming. Consciousness is not algorithmic, yadda yadda yadda. Though this really maps better onto the events at Rannoch.

[Wayning_Star]

it's not known if the human/organic brain, "thought" travels faster than light. What if it does?

[Ieldra]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Well, organics can't get there without synthetic upgrades, which is exactly the point of Synthesis. I concede there's an imbalance though: synthetics don't appear to gain anything significant from the Synthesis. That "understanding" mentioned by the Catalyst is really nothing you'd need such a big change for, you could just program it in.

I'm sure you're aware that there's a semi-respectable argument that you can't ever achieve anything like human consciousness via programming. Consciousness is not algorithmic, yadda yadda yadda. Though this really maps better onto the events at Rannoch.

The workings of our minds are either deterministic or random, or a mix of both. You won't be able to argue otherwise without making recourse to the transcendent. Which is what ME3 implicitly does at Rannoch, actually, but I do not find it convincing, nor even respectable as an argument.

@Wayning_Star:
Human thought is based on chemistry and physics. Physical effects do not locally travel faster than light.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 03:50 .

[Wayning_Star]

I am therefore I think, I am... or some such.

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Well, organics can't get there without synthetic upgrades, which is exactly the point of Synthesis. I concede there's an imbalance though: synthetics don't appear to gain anything significant from the Synthesis. That "understanding" mentioned by the Catalyst is really nothing you'd need such a big change for, you could just program it in.

I'm sure you're aware that there's a semi-respectable argument that you can't ever achieve anything like human consciousness via programming. Consciousness is not algorithmic, yadda yadda yadda. Though this really maps better onto the events at Rannoch.

The workings of our minds are either deterministic or random, or a mix of both. You won't be able to argue otherwise without making recourse to the transcendent. Which is what ME3 implicitly does at Rannoch, actually, but I do not find it convincing, nor even respectable as an argument.

@Wayning_Star:
Human thought is based on chemistry and physics. Physical effects do not locally travel faster than light.

I just googled that and the second item in were these forum posts we write..lol  Now all we have to do I watch out for those MIB types..lol

CHAPTER XII. JFROM MAGIC TO CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICS. and also Auguste Comte  Hope these work, one is a pdf

first one will work, but takes forever to load, sooo... the second is interesting in the face of our instinctual nature to wonder how stuff works, but not so much  how stuff doesn't. If physical effects did then we'd be just that much more advanced.  If a creature was/consisted of pure light, it would be moving at least the speed of light, as we know light. then you alter the "light" as if there is only ONE kind in the unknown realities of deep space and/or other cultures, etc. Take those machine people, who are programs, do they travel and in that respect, think faster than the speed of light?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, organics can't get there without synthetic upgrades, which is exactly the point of Synthesis. I concede there's an imbalance though: synthetics don't appear to gain anything significant from the Synthesis. That "understanding" mentioned by the Catalyst is really nothing you'd need such a big change for, you could just program it in.

Does this not lend credence to the thought that Synthesis alters organic mental functions in some way to facilitate this understsanding?  Whcih is certainly one of the darker "implications unpleasant" aspects of Synthesis.

While I'm at it: neither would organics need such a fundamental change. It would be sufficient to make Lazarus technology widely available and go forward from there using some knowledge acquired from the Reapers. Making Shepard the avatar of Synthesis would've been vastly more appropriate, but no, they "had to die" because ME3 was intended to be "Heroic Sacrifice: The Game".  

This is why I say the Lazarus Project only encouraged the Mass Effect team to go full-on space magic for ME3

[Iakus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I am therefore I think, I am... or some such.

I think, therefore I am.  I think.

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I am therefore I think, I am... or some such.

I think, therefore I am.  I think.

oh what ever...lolz

[Wayning_Star]

I suggest waaaaayyyyy more space magic...

[Iakus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I suggest waaaaayyyyy more space magic...

 "An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic"

Sanderson's First Law of magic

[Wayning_Star]

the best thing to understand about magic is that it doesn't exist. Now we have to take technology and see if it holds up under the same scrutiny...

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I suggest waaaaayyyyy more space magic...

"An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic"

Sanderson's First Law of magic

I did say in various posts that one of Synthesis' great flaws is that its implementation defies all rationalization in terms of in-world logic.

BTW nice quote.

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The workings of our minds are either deterministic or random, or a mix of both. You won't be able to argue otherwise without making recourse to the transcendent. Which is what ME3 implicitly does at Rannoch, actually, but I do not find it convincing, nor even respectable as an argument.

I'm thinking of the old Roger Penrose argument, which arguably gets a shout-out from Bio in the "blue box" material. I don't buy it myself, but he wasn't laughed at when he proposed it.

@Wayning_Star:
Human thought is based on chemistry and physics. Physical effects do not locally travel faster than light.

However, see the Hyperion Cantos' Void Which Binds; consciousness turns out to be a non-local phenomenon. The difference is that Dan Simmons has the chops to write mystical mumbo-jumbo into an SF universe without the seams showing, while the ME writers don't.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:37 .

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, organics can't get there without synthetic upgrades, which is exactly the point of Synthesis. I concede there's an imbalance though: synthetics don't appear to gain anything significant from the Synthesis. That "understanding" mentioned by the Catalyst is really nothing you'd need such a big change for, you could just program it in.

Does this not lend credence to the thought that Synthesis alters organic mental functions in some way to facilitate this understsanding?  Whcih is certainly one of the darker "implications unpleasant" aspects of Synthesis.

Err....The "understanding" is nothing you'd need such a big change for, so you're making a bigger change to facilitate it? I don't follow this logic.

iakus wrote...

While I'm at it: neither would organics need such a fundamental change. It would be sufficient to make Lazarus technology widely available and go forward from there using some knowledge acquired from the Reapers. Making Shepard the avatar of Synthesis would've been vastly more appropriate, but no, they "had to die" because ME3 was intended to be "Heroic Sacrifice: The Game".  

This is why I say the Lazarus Project only encouraged the Mass Effect team to go full-on space magic for ME3

I don't think so, no. If anything, the fans are responsible. The LP started as a semi-cool mechanism to justify a level reset, then people jumped on the religious significance this might be said to have together with certain other aspects, and things followed from there. 

I even blame myself for bringing the religious angle up in my first Synthesis thread. I feel as if I contributed to the space magic by even mentioning it, even more so since the EC made quite a few other things explicit I brought up in that thread. 

Of course the writers wouldn't have included all that had it not fit into their traditionalist interpretation of The Hero's Journey, but I've often said we shouldn't persistently bring up things we would not like here on the BSN, since we are giving the developers ideas with our posts all the time, and even if they pick up only one in a thousand, I'd rather have it be something I like. That, btw., is the reason why I never posted a single word about a possible pseudo-supernatural interpretation of the LP, even though it was always present in my mind as a dreadful possibility ever since ME2 came out.   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[Wayning_Star]

But as Kierkegaard argues, the proper logical flow of argument is that existence is already assumed or presupposed in order for thinking to occur, not that existence is concluded from that thinking.[19]

Cogito ergo sum


The Light Cone: Einstein-Minkowski Spacetime - Physics

"The speed of light is the SAME for all inertial observers,
regardless of the motion of the source."


IF we thought of everything all a once, then what?

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
I suggest waaaaayyyyy more space magic...

"An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic"

Sanderson's First Law of magic

I did say in various posts that one of Synthesis' great flaws is that its implementation defies all rationalization in terms of in-world logic.

BTW nice quote.

Yeah it was more in response to the "more space magic comment"

Sanderson's three laws make for very interesting fantasy (or science fantasy) settings.  A pity Biwoare violated them all, the other two being

2) "Limitations>Powers"
 
In other words the consequences and restrictions to a power make for a more interesting story than the power itself

3) "Expand what you already have before you add something new."

Modifié par iakus, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:59 .

[Wayning_Star]

I think a lot of the 'skeptics' associated with writings in the ME universe as applied, that is, external to that actuality. A eye of the beholders type gizmo..lol

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Err....The "understanding" is nothing you'd need such a big change for, so you're making a bigger change to facilitate it? I don't follow this logic.

Well, if we consider:

Synthetics don't understand organics now

Synthesis does not physically change synthetics

With Synthesis, synthetics understand organics.

Now if we say that Synthesis is necessary for this understanding to take place, that it will not otherwise happen on its own, that implies that synthesis does something to organics to achieve this.  What happened?

Implication: Synthesis alters the mental functions of organics (which are "both hardware and software") to make this understanding achievable

I don't think so, no. If anything, the fans are responsible. The LP started as a semi-cool mechanism to justify a level reset, then people jumped on the religious significance this might be said to have together with certain other aspects, and things followed from there. 

I even blame myself for bringing the religious angle up in my first Synthesis thread. I feel as if I contributed to the space magic by even mentioning it, even more so since the EC made quite a few other things explicit I brought up in that thread. 

Of course the writers wouldn't have included all that had it not fit into their traditionalist interpretation of The Hero's Journey, but I've often said we shouldn't persistently bring up things we would not like here on the BSN, since we are giving the developers ideas with our posts all the time, and even if they pick up only one in a thousand, I'd rather have it be something I like. That, btw., is the reason why I never posted a single word about a possible pseudo-supernatural interpretation of the LP, even though it was always present in my mind as a dreadful possibility ever since ME2 came out.   

You don't have the hero die and come back again and not have messianic undertones.  Especially not when you give them twelve companions.  It's so on the nose it's not even funny, it's a living cliche. there's no way tey were unaware of the comparisons.

Wait, I take that back, tehy didn't anticipate the ending backlash, maybe they really didn't see the comparisons

Modifié par iakus, 30 décembre 2013 - 05:09 .

[Ieldra]

iakus, these are the people to whom it didn't occur that the number of companions in ME2 could lead to problems in ME3. Shepard got his name from Alan Shepard and the LP started as a rationalization for the level reset. From my pov, the emergence of a religious angle seems like an unfortunate coincidence.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 05:05 .

[Wayning_Star]

don't worry, it's not complicated then someone will be sure to imagine the need for complications..

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus, these are the people to whom it didn't occur that the number of companions in ME2 could lead to problems in ME3. Shepard got his name from Alan Shepard and the LP started as a rationalization for the level reset. From my pov, the emergence of a religious angle seems like an unfortunate coincidence.

Maybe, but I suspect the turnover in writers across the trilogy was the major driving force in the change of tone.

I mean, how many writers were actually on board for all three games?

Edit:  not to mention the change of lead halfway through the trilogy

Modifié par iakus, 30 décembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[Farangbaa]

You people keep acting as if when the original team made the entire trilogy, ME would've been the perfect game.

It would not have been, it has been stated numerous times that they had pretty much no idea where they were going to go with the trilogy, just that it would have been a trilogy. So much room to screw up, so much room to change tone or direction.

You are just like those MMO gamers who keep thinking that the next MMO is going to be 'it'. BUt after release, and after having played it for a while, it turns out not to be. And then they curse the developers forever, threaten to never buy their games again and all that bull that keeps happening here as well.

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus, these are the people to whom it didn't occur that the number of companions in ME2 could lead to problems in ME3. Shepard got his name from Alan Shepard and the LP started as a rationalization for the level reset. From my pov, the emergence of a religious angle seems like an unfortunate coincidence.

Is that why they said they did the LP? I though it had something to do with the abandoned cyborg Shep idea. Which in retrospect probably should have stayed in.

[Ieldra]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus, these are the people to whom it didn't occur that the number of companions in ME2 could lead to problems in ME3. Shepard got his name from Alan Shepard and the LP started as a rationalization for the level reset. From my pov, the emergence of a religious angle seems like an unfortunate coincidence.

Is that why they said they did the LP? I though it had something to do with the abandoned cyborg Shep idea. Which in retrospect probably should have stayed in.

Abandoned? Shepard *is* a cyborg as per the LP logs. You know, created through "biosynthetic fusion".

Funny thing. It just occurred to me that Shepard already is the avatar of a human-made Synthesis. And I thought I we couldn't find any *more* inconsistencies in the narrative. Oh my....

[SwobyJ]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus, these are the people to whom it didn't occur that the number of companions in ME2 could lead to problems in ME3. Shepard got his name from Alan Shepard and the LP started as a rationalization for the level reset. From my pov, the emergence of a religious angle seems like an unfortunate coincidence.

BRB heading to the Citadel to fight the Reaper Sovereign.


EDIT: To attempt to stop the cycle of death and galactic sin.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 30 décembre 2013 - 06:57 .