9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

??? I don't understand what you've written there, Swoby.

[David7204]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Funny thing. It just occurred to me that Shepard already is the avatar of a human-made Synthesis. And I thought I we couldn't find any *more* inconsistencies in the narrative. Oh my....

Yes. Shepard is the avatar of human betterment through technology by having implants which make her no better than she was. That makes perfect sense. Oh my....

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Funny thing. It just occurred to me that Shepard already is the avatar of a human-made Synthesis. And I thought I we couldn't find any *more* inconsistencies in the narrative. Oh my....

Yes. Shepard is the avatar of human betterment through technology by having implants which make her no better than she was. That makes perfect sense. Oh my....

It does, because the "biosynthetic fusion" has made Shepard quite a bit more physically capable and durable in ME2 and ME3. Watch the relevant cutscenes. It's canon. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 08:49 .

[David7204]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Funny thing. It just occurred to me that Shepard already is the avatar of a human-made Synthesis. And I thought I we couldn't find any *more* inconsistencies in the narrative. Oh my....

Yes. Shepard is the avatar of human betterment through technology by having implants which make her no better than she was. That makes perfect sense. Oh my....

It does, because the "biosynthetic fusion" has made Shepard quite a bit more physically capable and durable
in ME2 and ME3. Watch the relevant cutscenes. It's canon. 

What utter hogwash. Even if that information wasn't of very dubious 'canoncity' due to BioWare improving their skill and commitment to animation in general, it could very easily be explained by Shepard developing from experience, training with the various specialists on board, and dedicating herself more to physical fitness in acknowledgement of the dangers she faces and the importance of her mission. Or can people only physically improve when they have implants put in? Not to mention the better armor, shields, weapons and whatnot no doubt more canonically available to Shepard in ME 2 and ME 3.

Modifié par David7204, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:01 .

[David7204]

Double post.

Modifié par David7204, 30 décembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It does, because the "biosynthetic fusion" has made Shepard quite a bit more physically capable and durable in ME2 and ME3. Watch the relevant cutscenes. It's canon. 

While true, how does Shepard being able to drink ryncol and fire a Widow without breaking an arm lend to understanding between organics and synthetics?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It does, because the "biosynthetic fusion" has made Shepard quite a bit more physically capable and durable in ME2 and ME3. Watch the relevant cutscenes. It's canon. 

While true, how does Shepard being able to drink ryncol and fire a Widow without breaking an arm lend to understanding between organics and synthetics?

It doesn't, but I don't think that was the point Ieldra was trying to make.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Funny thing. It just occurred to me that Shepard already is the avatar of a human-made Synthesis. And I thought I we couldn't find any *more* inconsistencies in the narrative. Oh my....

Yes. Shepard is the avatar of human betterment through technology by having implants which make her no better than she was. That makes perfect sense. Oh my....

It does, because the "biosynthetic fusion" has made Shepard quite a bit more physically capable and durable
in ME2 and ME3. Watch the relevant cutscenes. It's canon. 

What utter hogwash. Even if that information wasn't of very dubious 'canoncity' due to BioWare improving their skill and commitment to animation in general, it could very easily be explained by Shepard developing from experience, training with the various specialists on board, and dedicating herself more to physical fitness in acknowledgement of the dangers she faces and the importance of her mission. Or can people only physically improve when they have implants put in? Not to mention the better armor, shields, weapons and whatnot no doubt more canonically available to Shepard in ME 2 and ME 3.

And all of that is supplemented (or in fact supplements) Shepard having new upgrades and cybernetics. 

This seems like a deliberate attempt to attack more of Ieldra's intent rather than his actual argument. It should be pretty easy to realize that physical upgrades, cybernetics, and implants go hand-in-hand with Shepard's training and skills to make him a much stronger individual.

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It does, because the "biosynthetic fusion" has made Shepard quite a bit more physically capable and durable in ME2 and ME3. Watch the relevant cutscenes. It's canon. 

While true, how does Shepard being able to drink ryncol and fire a Widow without breaking an arm lend to understanding between organics and synthetics?

Yet again: understanding is not the point of Synthesis on the organic side. Conflict resolution or prevention is not its point either. The point is affecting the outcome, balancing some of the disadvantages of organics so that conflicts don't result in extinction. Then there's the Cipher which gives Shepard a unique *mental* perspective as well, though that isn't exactly a result of technology and it doesn't bring them closer to synthetics so it may not count for this argument exactly. It still counts for Shepard as a transhuman.

That's a sideshow though. What I wanted to illustrate is that Shepard is an example of a perfectly functional partly synthetic, partly organic individual where the aspects mesh at a level low enough that you don't see the lines where they meet, and that thus - we don't need the Synthesis' space magic to achieve it, which means that this adds one more inconsistency to ME3's story. In principle, ME3's Synthesis achieves nothing for organics beyond what Shepard already has. The debate how this provides a solution for the organic/synthetic conflict is a separate one.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[David7204]

You utterly failed to do so. If Synthesis means a universe where humans have the option to mesh with technology to achieve some benefit, we've clearly achieved Synthesis in the real world right now, today. And thus it's clearly a meaningless concept.

How ironic, Ieldra. For all your talk of vitalism, you're quite eager to gleefully embrace exactly the same concepts.

Modifié par David7204, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:30 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You utterly failed to do so. If Synthesis means a universe where humans have the option to mesh with technology, we've clearly achieved Synthesis in the real world right now, today. And thus it's clearly a meaningless concept.

No, David, it's not. The concept of being able to integrate technology is rudimentary, and regardless, Synthesis does much more than simply allowing humans to overcome some physical limitations with technology.

You aren't defining a threshold for how humans are meshing with technology, or on what level. For example, you could say one who is wearing glasses is a synthetic. Or someone with a glass-eye is synthetic. Or with an artificial heart. Or with a steel plate in their leg. 

That is not synthesis. Synthesis, as BW meant for it to be interpreted, is a mixture of purely synthetic traits with purely organic ones. Organics now have traits that synthetics have, while synthetics now have an apparent understanding of organic processes and faculties and motivations.

Granted, it's all bull**** in the way its written and treated in the game, but the concept itself is not alien, nor is it far-fetched.

I can't believe I just defended Synthesis...

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:34 .

[David7204]

That's right. I could. If murky semi-pseudo-canonical physical benefits are Synthesis, surely technology that, for example, restores a human's vision or hearing also qualifies.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...
How ironic, Ieldra. For all your talk of vitalism, you're quite eager to gleefully embrace exactly the same concepts.

You pulled that out of your ass. Really is there any way you can communicate with people that doesn't involve belittling and insulting them?

[Ieldra]

We do not seamlessly mesh with technology. Shepard appears to do that. It's not a digital off/on switch though but a quantized process and Synthesis is implied to go beyond what the galaxy can achieve on its own, yes. Nonetheless, that implication is meaningless if we don't get to see the difference. We even get the green eyes effect in Overlord...

@MassivelyEffective:
Thanks for saying things better than I did.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:40 .

[David7204]

I did no such thing at all. Clearly, by Ieldra's definition, Shepard's implants have some magical human spark that qualifies them not just as Synthesis, but the avatar of Synthesis. Clearly, a magical human spark other technology doesn't have and isn't capable of having. A spark that exists outside the realm of physics and biology, obviously.

Modifié par David7204, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:39 .

[AresKeith]

David shouldn't you be playing DAO

[David7204]

Can you define this threshold and your reasoning for it, Ieldra? Or this more of a 'pile of sand' sort of thing? Or are you willing to admit this is vitalism?

[Ieldra]

ROFL!

Well, David, that (your previous post before the last one, since you pre-empted me by a second or so) has to be the biggest strawman anyone has ever built here on BSN, and that's saying something.

As for the threshold: that would be the point where (a) technology does not feel foreign any more and ( meshing with it results in improvements that balance out against the advantages of purely synthetic entities. The story does not provide a hard answer, and RL parallels won't work because we don't have synthetic life.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:46 .

[ruggly]

Those pesky goalposts keep moving.

[David7204]

Tell me Ieldra, if it's not a magical spark that makes Shepard's implants the human embodiment of Synthesis and modern technology not Synthesis at all, then what exactly is it?

[AresKeith]

AresKeith wrote...

David shouldn't you be playing DAO