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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#8101
Jorji Costava

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Ieldra2 wrote...

There we have another contentious issue. Transhumanists disagree about this, but the philosophy doesn't really differentiate between different means to overcome the limitations of the human condition. The problem is more an ethical one: if you make genetic modifications of Miranda's and Grunt's kind, you change not only yourself but also your not-yet-born children, and people disagree about whether or not that should be done since transhumanism is a very individualistic philosophy and says everyone should have the liberty to change their minds and bodies as they see fit, but never have them changed against their will (so ME's Synthesis really does actuate a transhumanist future by betraying its spirit). However, none of us have control of the place where we start, so some justify germline engineering if the modifications can reasonably be seen as beneficial, and if technology can reverse the effect of any such changes and reverse the change itself for future generations, the issue becomes irrelevant. That, btw, is why in my view, the "permissibility" of something like Synthesis hinges on the question whether or not it is possible for a person in a Synthesized future to live as if no changes had been made. Since nothing is said about this, I am free to imagine that it is so.


This looks like one of those Derek Parfit-style non-identity cases. If you genetically modify yourself, you won't have numerically the same children you would have had if you hadn't modified yourself. It's not a choice between having a given child on the one hand and then having the same child but with un-asked-for modifications on the other. It's a choice between having a genetically unmodified child on the one hand, and then having an altogether distinct but modified child on the other.

#8102
Ieldra

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iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, Kai Leng qualifies as well. There is no fixed agreed-upon borderline, but the term "transhuman" is meant to mean "transitional human", located somewhere beyond normal human parameters but not yet so enhanced that you could call them "posthuman". The "posthuman" state, that's actually where brain augmentations will take you, implying that the way you think and your increased cognitive abilities will make you appear more and more alien to normal humans. Shepard is transhuman but not posthuman. I think whoever wrote EDI's dialogue was unaware of the distinction. 


but by that definition, anyone with an implanted omnitool, biotic amps, or even a pacemaker is 'transhuman". 

Anyone with implanted technology that gives them abilities beyond the human norm. A pacemaker doesn't count because it doesn't give such abilities, nor do omnitools since they aren't implanted, but a biotic implant does. Recall ME1? Martin Burns and his "Parliamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies"? The issue was recompense for biotics who had been implanted with a risky L2 implant and suffered bad side effects. .

The Alliance soldiers' genetic modifications do not transfer to their children. At least the female soldiers' don't since a woman is born with all her eggs and they'd have to be modified separately. I don't know if that's possible for men as well, but I don't think the writers went that deeply into the science to differentiate. Anyway, since modification of gametes is a species modification I don't think that's on the table in the MEU. That's why Miranda is special. Her genetic template was created from the ground up so that all her children would inherit her abilities, and that's why the damned traditionalists among the writers made her infertile. 

#8103
Ieldra

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osbornep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

There we have another contentious issue. Transhumanists disagree about this, but the philosophy doesn't really differentiate between different means to overcome the limitations of the human condition. The problem is more an ethical one: if you make genetic modifications of Miranda's and Grunt's kind, you change not only yourself but also your not-yet-born children, and people disagree about whether or not that should be done since transhumanism is a very individualistic philosophy and says everyone should have the liberty to change their minds and bodies as they see fit, but never have them changed against their will (so ME's Synthesis really does actuate a transhumanist future by betraying its spirit). However, none of us have control of the place where we start, so some justify germline engineering if the modifications can reasonably be seen as beneficial, and if technology can reverse the effect of any such changes and reverse the change itself for future generations, the issue becomes irrelevant. That, btw, is why in my view, the "permissibility" of something like Synthesis hinges on the question whether or not it is possible for a person in a Synthesized future to live as if no changes had been made. Since nothing is said about this, I am free to imagine that it is so.


This looks like one of those Derek Parfit-style non-identity cases. If you genetically modify yourself, you won't have numerically the same children you would have had if you hadn't modified yourself. It's not a choice between having a given child on the one hand and then having the same child but with un-asked-for modifications on the other. It's a choice between having a genetically unmodified child on the one hand, and then having an altogether distinct but modified child on the other.

I didn't know this kind of problem had a name. Indeed the description fits, and my personal solution to this is to reject the intuition. I personally think that the children you might have create no moral obligation for you to either modify yourself or avoid modifying yourself, but there are strong intuitions at work here, and human morality is not always rational, as much as I would wish that it was. Of course, this only holds if you think that existence is fundamentally preferable to non-existence. I don't believe that, and this means that there can be conditions where you have a moral obligation not to have any (more) children, but you have no obligation to change those conditions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 décembre 2013 - 06:59 .


#8104
Iakus

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Anyone with implanted technology that gives them abilities beyond the human norm. A pacemaker doesn't count because it doesn't give such abilities, nor do omnitools since they aren't implanted, but a biotic implant does. Recall ME1? Martin Burns and his "Parliamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies"? The issue was recompense for biotics who had been implanted with a risky L2 implant and suffered bad side effects. .


You're right about the omnitool.  I was actually thinking of the haptic interfaces:

Haptic interfaces have become so common that some individuals undergo cybernetic enhancement surgery to have the accelerometers implanted in their fingertips. "Going bareskin" is the sign of a committed computer user who no longer has to fuss with putting on gloves or cleaning them with alcohol wipes to get rid of the clammy-hand smell.

But at any rate, cybernetic and genetic advancements are clearly shown to be very different animals, given teh number of restricton on gene therapies in the ME universe

#8105
AlanC9

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Ieldra2 wrote...

The Alliance soldiers' genetic modifications do not transfer to their children. At least the female soldiers' don't since a woman is born with all her eggs and they'd have to be modified separately. I don't know if that's possible for men as well, but I don't think the writers went that deeply into the science to differentiate. 


Even if the modifications were inheritable, it would be up to the individual male soldier whether or not to do it. A soldier who didn't want the modifications passed down could freeze pre-treatment sperm.

#8106
Ieldra

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iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Anyone with implanted technology that gives them abilities beyond the human norm. A pacemaker doesn't count because it doesn't give such abilities, nor do omnitools since they aren't implanted, but a biotic implant does. Recall ME1? Martin Burns and his "Parliamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies"? The issue was recompense for biotics who had been implanted with a risky L2 implant and suffered bad side effects. .


You're right about the omnitool.  I was actually thinking of the haptic interfaces:

Haptic interfaces have become so common that some individuals undergo cybernetic enhancement surgery to have the accelerometers implanted in their fingertips. "Going bareskin" is the sign of a committed computer user who no longer has to fuss with putting on gloves or cleaning them with alcohol wipes to get rid of the clammy-hand smell.

But at any rate, cybernetic and genetic advancements are clearly shown to be very different animals, given teh number of restricton on gene therapies in the ME universe

I don't contest that. All I've said is that both kinds of technologies can be used to enhance humans, and thus both are relevant for transhumanism, no matter how uncomfortable that makes some people feel.

@Alan:
Yes, that would be a solution. The question is, in the end, if such modifications create conditions that oblige you to have no more children. I don't think so, since the changes actually *are* beneficial from almost any reasonable point of view. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 décembre 2013 - 07:11 .


#8107
SwobyJ

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Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, Kai Leng qualifies as well. There is no fixed agreed-upon borderline, but the term "transhuman" is meant to mean "transitional human", located somewhere beyond normal human parameters but not yet so enhanced that you could call them "posthuman". The "posthuman" state, that's actually where brain augmentations will take you, implying that the way you think and your increased cognitive abilities will make you appear more and more alien to normal humans. Shepard is transhuman but not posthuman. I think whoever wrote EDI's dialogue was unaware of the distinction. 


but by that definition, anyone with an implanted omnitool, biotic amps, or even a pacemaker is 'transhuman". 

Anyone with implanted technology that gives them abilities beyond the human norm. A pacemaker doesn't count because it doesn't give such abilities, nor do omnitools since they aren't implanted, but a biotic implant does. Recall ME1? Martin Burns and his "Parliamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies"? The issue was recompense for biotics who had been implanted with a risky L2 implant and suffered bad side effects. .

The Alliance soldiers' genetic modifications do not transfer to their children. At least the female soldiers' don't since a woman is born with all her eggs and they'd have to be modified separately. I don't know if that's possible for men as well, but I don't think the writers went that deeply into the science to differentiate. Anyway, since modification of gametes is a species modification I don't think that's on the table in the MEU. That's why Miranda is special. Her genetic template was created from the ground up so that all her children would inherit her abilities, and that's why the damned traditionalists among the writers made her infertile. 


:S I really don't think they're traditionalists. I thought they were more showing how humanity is actually very new at this thing and isn't going to get the process perfect.

And I think the only thing that matters for 'transhuman' is the 'trans-itional' part. If you're only improving yourself, you're not *A* transhuman. If you're working to make yourself totally different through tech, you're *A* transhuman. Once you're there, yes, you're 'post-human'.

The difficulty is in subjective perception of this.

From our normal RL perception, transhuman is any form of augmentation. We mostly define it as such.

But to a society that has augmentation (of some sort) as a regular part of life, I don't think it's strange to see people defining transhuman differently. Some are 'more purely human' and some are 'abominations to humanity' and it all depends on the POV.

We have Shepard who is OK with some stuff, but the Cerberus level of 'improvements' is monsturous and the Reaper level of 'synthesis' is an abomination.

But the idea of them, in general, is absorbed by him. He has ideas by the end of ME3 that he didn't have before.

To Cerberus, staying 'pure human' = extinction, at some point. We won't preserve humanity if it is left to the organic and chaotic evolutionary method. Yet, the Reaper path to them also means that humanity is lost.
"We evolve or we die."

To the Reapers, there is no difference. It's just 'states' and 'DNA' and 'results'. Taking the Cerberus path to them is understandable but pointless ("Or do you THINK you can control us?"). Taking the more pure Organic path to them is pointless and not understandable, yet Shepard has been showing much higher success with it than anyone else.

The Reapers think in terms of millions of years.
Illusive Man thinks in terms of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of years.
While Shepard, rightttt up til the Citadel TIM/Anderson confrontation, and even as Paragon, thinks in terms of the here and now (but maybe up to 100s of years), and goes "What's the rush? Maybe we're not ready" (paraphrasing his intent.

That's the discussion here. There are several factions and characters with different POVs and perspectives, and we're mostly stuck in the POV of just ONE character. Shepard. He's a soldier, heck, even as special forces, he would be defined as a grunt by people like TIM and Harbinger.

So we can stick to what makes Shepard more...Shepard?, and go Destroy.

ORRRR we can go to the greater temptations, especially if we learn as much about tech as we can in the series, and go for Control or especially Synthesis. Learning about transhumanism, and yes, post-human theory, helps. We, the players, take the leap into the future and unknown, disregarding the perspectives of the warring people below us.

You may not have liked that, and preferred a better selling point for highly advanced tech. I can get that. But at the same time, would you mind if future games actually headed into that? Maybe the next game will be much more positive about integrating transhumanist tech into ourselves (even if there's still the option to be negative to it)? Maybe future games will even be much more positive about the full post-human idea, and of living as virtual entities in a cosmic world view?

Red is the lowest chakra. There are many more. Maybe we're done with the 'luddite' (as it seems you think of it as) main approach, and maybe future games will move on to other POVs, other characters. We're done with Shepard, correct?

#8108
David7204

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Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is more an ethical one: if you make genetic modifications of Miranda's and Grunt's kind, you change not only yourself but also your not-yet-born children

This is factually untrue.

Changes to a person's genome do not necessarily pass down.

Modifié par David7204, 01 janvier 2014 - 06:22 .


#8109
MassivelyEffective0730

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David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is more an ethical one: if you make genetic modifications of Miranda's and Grunt's kind, you change not only yourself but also your not-yet-born children

This is factually untrue.

Changes to a person's genome do not necessarily pass down.


Source? Evidence?

#8110
David7204

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This Wikipedia page I found in 10 seconds by Googling 'germline.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_line

"In biology and genetics, the germline of a mature or developing individual is the line (sequence) of germ cells that have genetic material that may be passed to a child.

For example, gametes such as the sperm or the egg are part of the germline. So are the cells that divide to produce the gametes, called gametocytes, the cells that produce those, called gametogonia, and all the way back to the zygote, the cell from which the individual developed.

Cells that are not in the germline are called somatic cells. This refers to all of the cells of body apart from the gametes. If there is a mutation or other genetic change in the germline, it can potentially be passed to offspring, but a change in a somatic cell will not be.[1]"

#8111
Ieldra

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David7204 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is more an ethical one: if you make genetic modifications of Miranda's and Grunt's kind, you change not only yourself but also your not-yet-born children

This is factually untrue.

Changes to a person's genome do not necessarily pass down.

That is why I said "Of Miranda's and Grunt's kind". Both were explicitly created to be progenitors of an improved species or subspecies. So...as a matter of fact, their traits were made to pass on. The important point is that some modifications can only be made that way so there are things you can give your children but not yourself, and Miranda's and Grunt's genetic templates were creates from the ground up so they fall under that category.

I've also made the distinction between modification of gametes and other genetic modifications in another post of the recent sequence, so really, you're not telling me anything new and you've missed the point.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 janvier 2014 - 08:31 .


#8112
Obadiah

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So, good chance that in Synthesis, we'd be trying to consciously modify ourselves to make "perfect" beings and offspring (similar to Miranda and Grunt?): with the fewest "defects", more "attributes", and highest chance for success in life.

Think we'll be planning specific proficiencies to people, perhaps leaders will even plan the makeup of society (like in that Man of Steel movie)?

#8113
Ieldra

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Probably some societies will develop in that direction, but as a rule I doubt people would be very receptive to suggestions by "leaders" about which traits they or their children should have.

Also, things could be variable since some modificaitons could change in fairly short order. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 janvier 2014 - 02:15 .


#8114
Seival

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Mangalores wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
...

What I mean when I say Shepard can be seen as the avatar of a human-made Synthesis' is this: Shepard represents a unity of man and machine which doesn't go as deep as the Synthesis, but which doesn't need much further development to serve the Catalyst's purpose in the same way Synthesis does, and which could be developed to that point by galactic civilization alone, without any space god's magic.

We already have an indication of the same with the start-up of a geth/quarian symbiosis in the aftermath of Rannoch, but attached to the protagonist it gains much more narrative weight.

...


There is a vast qualitative difference of having the essence of Shepard spread all over the galaxy or having individual Quarians and Geth join in symbiotic relationships though it's not clear if the Geth/Quarian thing are more than temporary things since it's not clear what Geth are supposed to do in those environment suits

Anyway the Quarian/Geth relationship sounded healthy because it is a choice by individuals or cognitive collectives to do so and stay that way as long as they want, none gets assimilated against their will by a singular driving force.


I believe none of noticable positive things in the recorded history were made without rushing through someone's "free will". And I belive that none of future positive things will be any different. Don't worry about harming someone's pride. Pride is the sin. Concentrate on positive changes your deeds are going to make for everyone.

Everyone are guilty in good deeds they didn't make. When you have a real power to do something amazingly positive - just do it.

Modifié par Seival, 01 janvier 2014 - 04:22 .


#8115
SwobyJ

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It's annoying then that I see the positive and negative. Oh, if I could only be a pure idealist or cynic -_-.

Ex. Seival, the stuff you say is beautiful and implies good outcomes, but also ugly and implies very bad outcomes to me.

#8116
CosmicGnosis

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An argument that I often see from Synthesis doubters is that the collective knowledge of the civilizations contained within the Reapers doesn't amount to much because most of them were just as advanced as the current cycle.

Well, perhaps, but isn't the Crucible an example of multiple cycles' combined knowledge? I know that it needs the Citadel to reach its full potential, but it's still one hell of a technological achievement. Just imagine what all the cycles could do together...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 08 janvier 2014 - 05:02 .


#8117
SwobyJ

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"Just imagine what all the cycles could do together... "


I'm looking forward to that. I just think ME3 is not the time :)

(Yeah there's some crazier theories out there which even involve timeee traveelll and all of the cycles working together in some way. I will take my leave.)

#8118
Ieldra

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I have a hard time believing that the next ME game will be a sequel based on a Synthesis ending, however much I would like that.

#8119
SwobyJ

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I have a hard time believing that the next ME game will be a sequel based on a Synthesis ending, however much I would like that.


I think you'll get your time! Not next game tho :(

It'd be funny to see Mass Effect go down futurist's predictions of tech advancement. We're 'supposed' to have much more integration of tech into ourselves within 20 years, and explore putting ourselves into 'avatars' (synthesis?) within 40 years...

#8120
jtav

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I want to talk about something I think will get a more sympathetic hearing here than elsewhere.

Synthesis grants freedom; it doesn't remove it. Synthesis decreases poverty and disease. Those things impact the freedom deeply and more profoundly than anyone affluent and healthy can realize. The quarian out of his suit can now live where she pleases, have sex without a health risk, can smell a flower unfiltered. That's real freedom and an abstract principle of self-determination seems rather hollow in the face of concrete restrictions removed.

#8121
CosmicGnosis

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jtav wrote...

I want to talk about something I think will get a more sympathetic hearing here than elsewhere.

Synthesis grants freedom; it doesn't remove it. Synthesis decreases poverty and disease. Those things impact the freedom deeply and more profoundly than anyone affluent and healthy can realize. The quarian out of his suit can now live where she pleases, have sex without a health risk, can smell a flower unfiltered. That's real freedom and an abstract principle of self-determination seems rather hollow in the face of concrete restrictions removed.


This reminds me of one of my old threads:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14540887

#8122
Obadiah

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@jtav
Agreed.

I find most of the arguments against Synthesis far too moralistic. They're the things academics argue about that are based on ideas of themes, and right and wrong that just do not stand up to the actual state of people living in the galaxy in ME1 and ME2, the problem the Catalyst is describing, and the tremendous gift the Catalyst is offering.

Synthesis empowers all individuals to level never before considered. It is freedom

#8123
SwobyJ

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Obadiah wrote...

@jtav
Agreed.

I find most of the arguments against Synthesis far too moralistic. They're the things academics argue about that are based on ideas of themes, and right and wrong that just do not stand up to the actual state of people living in the galaxy in ME1 and ME2, the problem the Catalyst is describing, and the tremendous gift the Catalyst is offering.

Synthesis empowers all individuals to level never before considered. It is freedom


I'd rather, you know, have everyone ask for it first. At the very damn least.

#8124
Obadiah

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Personal preferences can be what they are, but everyone asking for something would not make it Ok.

#8125
teh DRUMPf!!

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

An argument that I often see from Synthesis doubters is that the collective knowledge of the civilizations contained within the Reapers doesn't amount to much because most of them were just as advanced as the current cycle.

Well, perhaps, but isn't the Crucible an example of multiple cycles' combined knowledge? I know that it needs the Citadel to reach its full potential, but it's still one hell of a technological achievement. Just imagine what all the cycles could do together...



I actually think it's not the knowledge that is attractive, but the brainpower. You have AI that are as smart as the sum of a civilization, but can think like a super-computer.

I mean, you seen what they created while at war with us -- it ain't pretty, but, that's war for you.

Now you commit that creative ability and processing-power to something that's useful to society...