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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#8201
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CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's amusing that the most compelling analyses (in my opinion) were written by people who chose Synthesis and Control, and not Destroy. The implication is that more "thoughtful" people will lean towards these choices. Of course, one could argue that these choices require way too much analysis to even make sense, and in that case, Destroy fits better with the story that came before.


Oh, I see.

Destroy does't even cater to analysis. It's a visercal choice, not a cerebral one. If you like though, I'll just confirm your suspicion in my case at least. I fully admit to being a thoughtless, lowbrow person with an average IQ (technically, above average, but nothing near Mensa levels). I'm capable of being "more", but the truth is, I'm lazy. If I can get results to a problem (any problem) through more direct approaches, I always take it.

And in the case of this game's story, it's even easier to take it. I suffer no repercussions from being direct or  destructive. Real life is worse. Sometimes being direct gets you in trouble. Life calls for us to step back more often and conjure new possibilities. Here, I don't even have to.

#8202
teh DRUMPf!!

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Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't know, I think this analysis is also interesting (thank you MadCat for supplying this link in your sig), and the author doesn't like any of the endings.

http://social.biowar...ndex/11435886/1



That guy doesn't get the ending.

#8203
ImaginaryMatter

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Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't know, I think this analysis is also interesting (thank you MadCat for supplying this link in your sig), and the author doesn't like any of the endings.

http://social.biowar...ndex/11435886/1


If you're interested in that article the writer also has some stuff up on this site: http://awtr.ca/.

#8204
78stonewobble

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/chooses synthesis and plateaus on a supposed technological level that has existed for billions of years...

/gets wiped out by a technological singularity from the next galaxy over...

...

Uhm... Nah... still doesn't make any sense.

#8205
Ieldra

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't know, I think this analysis is also interesting (thank you MadCat for supplying this link in your sig), and the author doesn't like any of the endings.

http://social.biowar...ndex/11435886/1


That guy doesn't get the ending.

I think his criticism is based on a perfectly valid mainstream reading of the ending. No matter how much their fans might deny it, Destroy does have that traditionalist pro-organic thematic vibe, Control is indeed based on the antagonists' failed modus operandi, and Synthesis does have the anti-diversity vibe. No matter how the EC endings show us that there won't be any actual in-world adverse effects because of what is, in the end, an out-of-world aspect of the story, these thematic currents exist and influence how people perceive the endings.

Countless times I've said that all three main endings are meant to be good endings, even before the EC. I stand by that. However, they are not sufficiently *shown* to be good endings in the original version, and the thematic vibes above are so strong that some find the EC versions incongruous.

When I wrote the OP of this thread, I was fully aware of the thematic currents and of the fact that I was writing against them, fighting an uphill battle to establish a non-mainstream reading of the Synthesis based on a kind of SF-related socialization not shared by many I suspect. That this reading was difficult to establish has its reasons not in any inherent problem with the idea of Synthesis, but, even disregarding the problems with the implementation, in the way the story which came before established similar things as thoroughly undesirable. I happen to like the thematic aspect of "taking the other into yourself", but it becomes problematic in a story with imagery that did its best to establish that "other" as irredeemably evil and something that shouldn't exist. I happen to like "the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither", but these words were used by an antagonist, and while it is an association fallacy to conclude that the idea is flawed based on that, this is, unfortunately, how such things work in a mainstream reading of the story.

This is, in the end, why I tend to say "I like the endings, it's the story that came before which is flawed", because my dislike for the rampant traditionalism (by which I mean, among other things, the abomination aesthetic, the conventional feel-good morality and the heart-over-mind vibe) of the first 95% of ME3 knows no bounds. While I like what they are meant to convey and have based my OP on a positive reading of the original Synthesis and the acknowledgement of the spirit of the EC version (discarding only the religion), the endings are like a neon-green hat worn together with a grey suit - way more interesting than many people here give them credit for, but somewhat jarring if you have been conditioned to expect a grey hat. So drayfish has a point when he says there is a thematic discontinuity.

Where I disagree with drayfish is the "moral message" sent by the endings. As much as it galls me having to agree with Javik, there is wisdom in his line "stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer." I think the endings require that you accept that mindset, and that alone should show you how utterly non-mainstream and against the spirit of much what came before they are created. However, I think it is a message that needs to be sent and a mindset occasionally required from anyone who would fancy themselves a leader, in fiction or not.

#8206
Ieldra

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Having said that (see above), I am finding myself relieved to be mostly rid of the ME universe in my mind. DA is like a breath of fresh air, and it's such a relief not having to fight the writers.

#8207
angol fear

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Ieldra2 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't know, I think this analysis is also interesting (thank you MadCat for supplying this link in your sig), and the author doesn't like any of the endings.

http://social.biowar...ndex/11435886/1


That guy doesn't get the ending.

I think his criticism is based on a perfectly valid mainstream reading of the ending. 


And that's a problem. It's supposed to be a literature professor who justify his point of view to him, I'm sorry but as literature professor we don't do mainstream reading!

#8208
Ieldra

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angol fear wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Darks1d3 wrote...

I don't know, I think this analysis is also interesting (thank you MadCat for supplying this link in your sig), and the author doesn't like any of the endings.

http://social.biowar...ndex/11435886/1


That guy doesn't get the ending.

I think his criticism is based on a perfectly valid mainstream reading of the ending. 


And that's a problem. It's supposed to be a literature professor who justify his point of view to him, I'm sorry but as literature professor we don't do mainstream reading!

If the story is constructed in a way that you would expect it, it is a valid reading. ME is made for a mainstream audience after all rather than an exclusive elite which can immediately appreciate what appears confusing to everyone else. My interpretation of the endings and especially of Synthesis is based on evidence in the game, but it is evidence with little narrative weight compared with the dominant thematic currents. One event is outright obscure to the point that you need a specific way of doing things in ME2 to get it. 

At some point, I criticized drayfish for his unwillingness to find more acceptable readings, even if they take a little work to make them fit. He pointed out my vision of Synthesis is a beautiful one and accepted that it is a possible reading, but he couldn't reconcile it with what came before in the story. He even brought an example up that would have made Synthesis acceptable for him if it had been presented that way - as a choice everyone needed to embrace, a poignant farewell to some part of our nature in order to find a way into the future (paraphrasing here). As this example shows, the problem lies in the emotions invoked by the presentation. It is possible to find a satisfying interpretation that fits the lore somewhat, but to some extent the emotional level refuses to comply because of what came before. I know what I'm talking about, the level of emotional detachment I needed for my interpretation was unprecedented, at least before the EC, and while it is indeed possible to write stories that require this, the ME trilogy was never made to be of that kind.

So while in the end I disagree with him, I do understand his point of view. Imagine if Synthesis had been presented like that: as a choice for every individual, with the full knowledge given that you either embrace the fundamental change that Synthesis brings, or you can live out your life clinging to your inherited nature, with the price of you and your kind being relegated to the cultural sidelines and becoming inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. Both scenarios - this and what the game gives us - end up basically the same: the old order of things is doomed. But the former one would have some reflection on what it means for the people and peoples of the galaxy, and the emotional weight would shift. 

Having said that, in hindsight it appears as if the writing talent to create such a subtle scenario didn't exist in the ME team.

  

#8209
teh DRUMPf!!

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I think his criticism is based on a perfectly valid mainstream reading of the ending. No matter how much their fans might deny it, Destroy does have that traditionalist pro-organic thematic vibe, Control is indeed based on the antagonists' failed modus operandi, and Synthesis does have the anti-diversity vibe. No matter how the EC endings show us that there won't be any actual in-world adverse effects because of what is, in the end, an out-of-world aspect of the story, these thematic currents exist and influence how people perceive the endings.

Countless times I've said that all three main endings are meant to be good endings, even before the EC. I stand by that. However, they are not sufficiently *shown* to be good endings in the original version, and the thematic vibes above are so strong that some find the EC versions incongruous.

*snipped for space*



I take issue with the idea that there are core/central themes in this game at all to call something like the ending "thematically revolting"-nonsense. I'll concede that, if you see Green as an anti-diversity ending, that cannot be reconciled with the rest of ME. As for the other two ... being traditionalist pro-organic -- even to the point of being anti-synthetic outright -- is one of few things Shepard can be consistent about through three games. Adopting the antagonist's "work" (for lack of a better word) isn't new to Mass Effect in the least. As a Paragon, you can save Maelon's data. As a Renegade, you can save the Collector Base and use it towards your own ends near the finale of ME3. ME2 has you work for what was an enemy group in ME1 and achieve something worthwhile with them, morality irrelevant. I could go on...

Moreover, each sequel introduces a set of new themes to the trilogy. ME1 is anti-synthetic, then ME2 rolls around. ME1 and 2 played down lots of themes in-line with Renegade morality, then ME3 and Javik come along.

There are no central themes in Mass Effect.


Ieldra2 wrote...

This is, in the end, why I tend to say "I
like the endings, it's the story that came before which is flawed",
because my dislike for the rampant traditionalism (by which I mean,
among other things, the abomination aesthetic, the conventional
feel-good morality and the heart-over-mind vibe) of the first 95% of ME3
knows no bounds.


We'll have to disagree on that. I can definitely see where the developers catered to those ideas, and I don't care for them either, but I never felt as though I needed to conform to them to play the game (I'm sorry if you felt that way, though). But then I've also hold the belief that Mass Effect revolves around bucking the conventional wisdom established within it.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 17 février 2014 - 04:32 .


#8210
AlanC9

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So drayfish's whole approach to ME was just wrong from the get-go, eh? I suppose that's a general problem for works with multiple authors.( Which reveals that I'm an outright reactionary WRT interpretive method, obviously.)

But I never really saw how Synthesis was seen as anti-diversity in any meaningful sense. Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 février 2014 - 05:06 .


#8211
ImaginaryMatter

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AlanC9 wrote...

So drayfish's whole approach to ME was just wrong from the get-go, eh? I suppose that's a general problem for works with multiple authors.( Which reveals that I'm an outright reactionary WRT interpretive method, obviously.)

But I never really saw how Synthesis was seen as anti-diversity in any meaningful sense. Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?


I think it's because of some of the wording used when the kid desribes Synthesis. I see it as different than Rannoch because the Geth and the Quarians had some techy version of symbiosis while Synthesis is changing everythings' DNA into a new framework (or something like that).

#8212
Jorji Costava

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AlanC9 wrote...

Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?


Arguably yes, with the whole Pinocchio subtext going on there (i.e. The Geth have to become more like us in order to be "alive" or whatever).

#8213
ImaginaryMatter

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osbornep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?


Arguably yes, with the whole Pinocchio subtext going on there (i.e. The Geth have to become more like us in order to be "alive" or whatever).


That's why I was somewhat disappointed with the Rannoch arc. I liked the ME2 Geth the best, then again the Catalyst's ideas about Synthetics would be even weirder if the Geth had their ME2 mentality in ME3.

#8214
Obadiah

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ImaginaryMatter wrote...

osbornep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?


Arguably yes, with the whole Pinocchio subtext going on there (i.e. The Geth have to become more like us in order to be "alive" or whatever).


That's why I was somewhat disappointed with the Rannoch arc. I liked the ME2 Geth the best, then again the Catalyst's ideas about Synthetics would be even weirder if the Geth had their ME2 mentality in ME3.

The Reaper upgrades are also describes as "fully evolved", "growth", and "the Geth were always moving this way."

#8215
ImaginaryMatter

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Obadiah wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

That's why I was somewhat disappointed with the Rannoch arc. I liked the ME2 Geth the best, then again the Catalyst's ideas about Synthetics would be even weirder if the Geth had their ME2 mentality in ME3.

The Reaper upgrades are also describes as "fully evolved", "growth", and "the Geth were always moving this way."


That still reeks of retcon. Wasn't their ME2 mentality that they were basically shattered pieces of a larger consciousness, which is why they wanted the megastructure to house them all? The Reaper upgrades on the other hand somehow upgrade each and every individual program to a full fledged AI, I don't know what exactly that entails but it seems completely different than they direction they were heading towards with the megastructure.

I doesn't even seem like an evolution, it is transforming the Geth into something fundamentally different and from a meta-game perspective making them like almost every other AI. I guess there's nothing technically wrong with it, but between Chris l'Etoile's version of them in ME2 and whatever they are in ME3 I prefer the uniqueness of the former.

#8216
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Definitely a retcon. They were building themselves to be more like Reapers. Not self-contained AI like Star Trek's Data (or EDI, for that matter).

Modifié par StreetMagic, 17 février 2014 - 08:45 .


#8217
Wayning_Star

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these posts makes me wonder what the electronic/synthetic mind thought what the upgrade was that might come from human/organic DNA cycles? Do/did they know more about our DNA/code than we did/do.



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#8218
Obadiah

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@ImaginaryMatter
@StreetMagic
It is only a retcon if you think gaining more intelligence independently, and building a megastructure to gain intelligence are mutually exclusive goals.

In ME2, Legion describes the Geth as, "a shattered mind. Most platforms are unable to achieve consciousness on their own." Thus, the Geth goal of building a mega-structure to allow all them to share thoughts and gain intelligence - probably hyper intelligence. The Geth also built a specialized platform able to operate independent of the Geth collective, namely Legion. So, the Geth were growing in independence.

I don't see why the opportunity presented by the Reaper upgrades to gain intelligence/consciousness in independent platforms, platforms which would now able to operate more effectively, is in conflict with building a mega-structure, and sharing thoughts. It don't see why it would be considered a retcon considering Legion just saw the dangers of Geth exisiting within a mega-structure, which is a single point of failure that an enemy could exploit.

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 février 2014 - 11:09 .


#8219
Mcfly616

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Did the Geth actually build Legion?


I thought the Geth Consensus mission shows you that he was built by the Quarians and was around during the Morning War...


"it is an efficient model....."

#8220
Mcfly616

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Though, I do sort of agree with Obadiah. The Geth may have been just seeking consciousness/intelligence. It's not necessarily a retcon.

#8221
JasonShepard

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Mcfly616 wrote...

Did the Geth actually build Legion?


I thought the Geth Consensus mission shows you that he was built by the Quarians and was around during the Morning War...


"it is an efficient model....."


Geth are software - it's highly unlikely that if Legion had been constructed pre-morning war that he'd still be the same collection of programs in the same platform 200 years later. And I'm pretty sure his ME2 dialogue mentions the platform being built specifically for the 'research Shepard' mission.

However, given the quote you mentioned, there's probably some connection between Legion and the sniper that we saw in the morning war. I suspect that one of the programs that makes up Legion was that sniper.

#8222
AlanC9

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osbornep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?


Arguably yes, with the whole Pinocchio subtext going on there (i.e. The Geth have to become more like us in order to be "alive" or whatever).


Good point. I framed the question wrong.Making peace in itself doesn't reduce diversity, but the preceding geth upgrades do.

#8223
ImaginaryMatter

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AlanC9 wrote...

osbornep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Did peace at Rannoch reduce diversity?


Arguably yes, with the whole Pinocchio subtext going on there (i.e. The Geth have to become more like us in order to be "alive" or whatever).


Good point. I framed the question wrong.Making peace in itself doesn't reduce diversity, but the preceding geth upgrades do.


Ya, I can see what you mean by that. It wouldn't be a loss of biological diversity (for lack of a better word) but it would lose the unique insight of the Geth if they spent all their time acting like Organics. I buy it for EDI because she was programmed to interact with Organics and her develope in ME3 seems like an extension of that. The Geth however are a different case.

#8224
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Legion has a tendency for recognizing icons and symbols. Maybe he's adapting some of Geth Sniper's traits (represented by his rifle), just like the Shepard armor.

But it makes just as much sense that the original sniper is one of the individuals that make up "Legion".

Modifié par StreetMagic, 18 février 2014 - 01:15 .


#8225
BeastSaver

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I thought "It is an efficient model," was referring to the sniper rifle that was being picked up.

I prefer the Geth as they were in ME2, wanting to evolve along their own path. However, once the Quarians attacked them, that showed a major flaw in the shared-intelligence model. "Imagine if, as your people are being killed, your own intelligence dims," (paraphrased).