9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Veneke]

dreman9999 wrote...

And the reaper on rannoch comfermed that was the main case with the organic /synthetic conflict. He basicly says, "What happened here is the reason why we are doing this."
Takesome time to remeber everythingLegion tells you and shows youin ME2. BW when out of there way to show how alien syntheticsare to organics inthis one scene...
 

The only person in that scene the was right on was Garrus, a person who specilizes in understanding his enemy.
My point is saying that a synthetic sigularity is bad because synthetic may destory organic is ignoringthe natureof synthetics. They won'tjustattck unless attacked first.

 
I've just looked at that youtube link and pretty much every single one of your crew says that Legion's Geth could become a problem later on. This is what the Catalyst fears. I fail to see how it strengthens your argument.

The Rannoch Reaper says that organics are doomed without the Reapers. All organic life would be destroyed without them. It talks a little about the Quarians when Shep says about living in peace and says that they failed to do so. It uses it as an argument for its own case, which is a little strange, but could easily be interpreted as the organics needing to learn tolerance in the midst of everything else that prompts Synthesis.

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Say the sythesis allows the hybids to be more advace then what ever synthetic they make ignores the fact that syntheticwill be usin gthe same level of teckthe hybrid will have from the get go....They are made with the advance tech your saying isthe hybrids advatage...That would makeno sence being the sythetic can tak any tech the hybrids makeof their own.I just make organics even with synthetics...That solvesnothing.

And having synthesis with our curret nature wouuld garrantee the dangers of technological singularity the hybrids. Ournuture is to have conflict. We would advance our weapons to a point that it would belike a galatic version of the usa/ussr stand off.

Synthesis solves nothing.

I like that, u r saying that having organic's natures preserved, hybrids can still do evil things like the reapers

I'm saying that the cause of conflit with organic is in born nature to cause conflit. It's need forustoservive but it can overwelm us. It's the main reason why we have confilict with synthetics.Not how on rennochit was the quarians that forced the geth to rebel.The reapers feel that thisis the coreof the issue as well being as indoctriantion takes control  of the limbic system, the part of the brian the nature of conflict is in.

I'm say that not controling this nature of organics make synthesis pointless. It's like give a former crack addict keys to a room filled with crack.

That last bit make u sound like Garrus...hahahahahaha:D *arms folded, fingers tapping on side of arm

My view is that organics produce synthetics for their own benefits without considering ethical issues, they just couldn's stop, and I believe synthetics were created so that they can do dirty work for organics, it is the organics that need to be restricted from making more synthetics

Andthat's why I have a problem with synthesis...The reaper understand that...When yougo to the star child at low ems...He says when refering to the problem" You being this on yourselves." 


They even brian wash organics while using deplomacy with the geth.
The reapers cleary think organicsarethe problem.
What if synthesis havemore control overe us then we think...What if it a new form of control for  organics?
That the thing that need to beconsidered.

Modifié par dreman9999, 24 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[Vigilant111]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Then we had nothing to worry about during the USA/USSR stand off then.
PS...Nothing in ME support that clam youjust made.
2.We did not destory the worldin that conflict because one side fell apart on their own. It won't be thateasy with another.
3. It not indifferanct that cause this extiction. Animal are themselve indifferent to animal that are not a threat to them and they don't kill animals that are indifferent, too. And Ox who is indifferent to a bird on his back won't kill it...The nature of conflict causes death. And OXbullwith kill another OX bull out of the nature of conflict.

The third point reinforces the fact that reapers tolerate primitive races, not sure how to fit it into anti-synthesis argument:unsure:

[Veneke]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Veneke wrote...

You actually made two points - trust and the singularity.

I (and others) have made numerous posts now on the necessity to trust the Catalyst for any of the endings to make sense. The OP addresses them and pretty much every argument against trusting the Catalyst has been addressed in the subsequent discussion. If none of that convinces you I'm not sure it's worthwhile debating the point further with you.

I'm not debating the point of trust. If you trust it, fine, I don't, not arguing the why's with anyone, I've stated the reasons I can see further back.
 

With regards the singularity, which I believe is your primary point, that is quite clearly shorthand for what the Catalyst said and the variety of assumptions that must be made in light of the poor execution of the endings. The Catalyst says that all organic life will be destroyed by synthetic life if left unchecked. The implication being that synthetics will eventually outdo organics entirely. The fact that he doesn't label it as a singularity does not make it any less of one.

I never said it falt-out wasn't a singularity, just that the explanation of it is being applied from a real-world perspective, not from any information given in-game. 

As a result, I find it strange that this then doesn't invalidate the Catalyst's point, since a singularity on these terms is by definition something we can't predict past, the consequences of it will not ever be known until it happens. 

Meaning the singualrity has to have occured to base any conclusion on it, which essentially undermines the original premise under all circumstances. 

 
Fair points. Although I would point you to the Dyson sphere and Legion's comments on it in ME 2 for some information from in the game.

[dreman9999]

Veneke wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And the reaper on rannoch comfermed that was the main case with the organic /synthetic conflict. He basicly says, "What happened here is the reason why we are doing this."
Takesome time to remeber everythingLegion tells you and shows youin ME2. BW when out of there way to show how alien syntheticsare to organics inthis one scene...
 

The only person in that scene the was right on was Garrus, a person who specilizes in understanding his enemy.
My point is saying that a synthetic sigularity is bad because synthetic may destory organic is ignoringthe natureof synthetics. They won'tjustattck unless attacked first.

 
I've just looked at that youtube link and pretty much every single one of your crew says that Legion's Geth could become a problem later on. This is what the Catalyst fears. I fail to see how it strengthens your argument.

The Rannoch Reaper says that organics are doomed without the Reapers. All organic life would be destroyed without them. It talks a little about the Quarians when Shep says about living in peace and says that they failed to do so. It uses it as an argument for its own case, which is a little strange, but could easily be interpreted as the organics needing to learn tolerance in the midst of everything else that prompts Synthesis.

You listening to the wrong part. Listen to the reasons why they think that way , not the fact that they think that. Each one have different reasoning to that conclusion. Those reason are complitly alien to the one Legion come up with. His is  that they simply are an aggressor. They all agree they are a threat but the reason why they choose wht they chosed are different. That's my point.

Modifié par dreman9999, 24 mai 2012 - 02:07 .

[Vigilant111]

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Say the sythesis allows the hybids to be more advace then what ever synthetic they make ignores the fact that syntheticwill be usin gthe same level of teckthe hybrid will have from the get go....They are made with the advance tech your saying isthe hybrids advatage...That would makeno sence being the sythetic can tak any tech the hybrids makeof their own.I just make organics even with synthetics...That solvesnothing.

And having synthesis with our curret nature wouuld garrantee the dangers of technological singularity the hybrids. Ournuture is to have conflict. We would advance our weapons to a point that it would belike a galatic version of the usa/ussr stand off.

Synthesis solves nothing.

I like that, u r saying that having organic's natures preserved, hybrids can still do evil things like the reapers

I'm saying that the cause of conflit with organic is in born nature to cause conflit. It's need forustoservive but it can overwelm us. It's the main reason why we have confilict with synthetics.Not how on rennochit was the quarians that forced the geth to rebel.The reapers feel that thisis the coreof the issue as well being as indoctriantion takes control  of the limbic system, the part of the brian the nature of conflict is in.

I'm say that not controling this nature of organics make synthesis pointless. It's like give a former crack addict keys to a room filled with crack.

That last bit make u sound like Garrus...hahahahahaha:D *arms folded, fingers tapping on side of arm

My view is that organics produce synthetics for their own benefits without considering ethical issues, they just couldn's stop, and I believe synthetics were created so that they can do dirty work for organics, it is the organics that need to be restricted from making more synthetics

Andthat's why I have a problem with synthesis...The reaper understand that...When yougo to the star child at low ems...He says when refering to the problem" You being this on yourselves." 


They even take brian wask organics while using deplomacy with the geth.
The reapers cleary think organicsarethe problem.
What if synthesis havemore control overe us then we think...What if it a new form of control for  organics?
That the thing that need to beconsidered.

The ethical issue arises from "how come we don't plant a chip in our brains, so we can all get 100% correct in exams", cos its not really us that's doing the work, and we are quite useless if we solely rely on such things

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Then we had nothing to worry about during the USA/USSR stand off then.
PS...Nothing in ME support that clam youjust made.
2.We did not destory the worldin that conflict because one side fell apart on their own. It won't be thateasy with another.
3. It not indifferanct that cause this extiction. Animal are themselve indifferent to animal that are not a threat to them and they don't kill animals that are indifferent, too. And Ox who is indifferent to a bird on his back won't kill it...The nature of conflict causes death. And OXbullwith kill another OX bull out of the nature of conflict.

The third point reinforces the fact that reapers tolerate primitive races, not sure how to fit it into anti-synthesis argument:unsure:

It's an argument that we don't kill people that weare indiffernent of. I never killed a random guy for no reason, no one in war has. Not even a murder. We kill based on he nature of conflict we have. A serial killer kills people because he enjoys killing. The thing that makes our natureof conflict dangerous isthe fact that wecan apply emotions and complexity to it.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Also, you assume that the Geth will reach a level beyond my comprehension.

We understand the Kardenshev scale up until five.

At that point the Geth won't even be in their bodies anymore. They will have transcended this mortal coil? They will be in separate dimensions.

What risk do they pose?

Or other Synthetics for that matter?

The same risk that a boot poses to an ant. Or a volcano to a snail.

They won't exist in this dimension at such a state. They will no longer be a risk to anyone. They will have gained the ability to warp the Universe to their will. They will achieved something that transcends bodies. They won't care. They will have done something unprecedented.

You assume that because they reach a state they will decide to wipe organics out, rather than leave them alone. Such a being wouldn't do much of anything to anyone. It's motivations would be for production only. Violence would be unecessary. You cannot know what they would do, or that they would even reach this state.

The Geth had their Dyson sphere destroyed, rendering them less capable than before. Oddly enough, they didn't see any reason to do anything until the Quarians attacked. In their weakened state they went to the Reapers. The Geth wouldn't bother anyone unless provoked. If we go by your theories, they will simply use energy outside of planets. They won't bother organics.

As for authotarian behavior, Destroy is in and out procedure. A vile procedure but the one that will have the least long term effects on the Universe. Control leaves the Reapers around and Synthesis violates everyone's rights and leaves them in a certain state.

[Vigilant111]

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Then we had nothing to worry about during the USA/USSR stand off then.
PS...Nothing in ME support that clam youjust made.
2.We did not destory the worldin that conflict because one side fell apart on their own. It won't be thateasy with another.
3. It not indifferanct that cause this extiction. Animal are themselve indifferent to animal that are not a threat to them and they don't kill animals that are indifferent, too. And Ox who is indifferent to a bird on his back won't kill it...The nature of conflict causes death. And OXbullwith kill another OX bull out of the nature of conflict.

The third point reinforces the fact that reapers tolerate primitive races, not sure how to fit it into anti-synthesis argument:unsure:

It's an argument that we don't kill people that weare indiffernent of. I never killed a random guy for no reason, no one in war has. Not even a murder. We kill based on he nature of conflict we have. A serial killer kills people because he enjoys killing. The thing that makes our natureof conflict dangerous isthe fact that wecan apply emotions and complexity to it.

I sorta get what u mean now

1. we don't go to conflicts based on indifference
2. emotion (fear, ambition, vengence) -fuelled conflicts are dangerous because they are often illogical and irrational

and so reinforces the validity of destroy option, because it is logical/rational

Modifié par Vigilant111, 24 mai 2012 - 02:17 .

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Also, you assume that the Geth will reach a level beyond my comprehension.

We understand the Kardenshev scale up until five.

At that point the Geth won't even be in their bodies anymore. They will have transcended this mortal coil? They will be in separate dimensions.

What risk do they pose?

Or other Synthetics for that matter?

The same risk that a boot poses to an ant. Or a volcano to a snail.

They won't exist in this dimension at such a state. They will no longer be a risk to anyone. They will have gained the ability to warp the Universe to their will. They will achieved something that transcends bodies. They won't care. They will have done something unprecedented.

You assume that because they reach a state they will decide to wipe organics out, rather than leave them alone. Such a being wouldn't do much of anything to anyone. It's motivations would be for production only. Violence would be unecessary. You cannot know what they would do, or that they would even reach this state.

The Geth had their Dyson sphere destroyed, rendering them less capable than before. Oddly enough, they didn't see any reason to do anything until the Quarians attacked. In their weakened state they went to the Reapers. The Geth wouldn't bother anyone unless provoked. If we go by your theories, they will simply use energy outside of planets. They won't bother organics.

As for authotarian behavior, Destroy is in and out procedure. A vile procedure but the one that will have the least long term effects on the Universe. Control leaves the Reapers around and Synthesis violates everyone's rights and leaves them in a certain state.

Added, based on what thegeth were trying to do...the would not even more of need. They would be trapin a vurtual worldthey made for themselves.

[Ieldra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
As a result, I find it strange that this then doesn't invalidate the Catalyst's point, since a singularity on these terms is by definition something we can't predict past, the consequences of it will not ever be known until it happens.

Meaning the singualrity has to have occured to base any conclusion on it, which essentially undermines the original premise under all circumstances.

Hmm...perhaps not. Think of this origin story:

There was once an organic species that built seed AI. Only they were unusual in that when they did it, they were already so advanced that they could keep the AI in check post-singularity. For a time, anyway. They saw what was happening and built the Catalyst, giving it the knowledge from the observed singularity, before they and the original AI destroyed each other. The Catalyst was programmed to find a solution.

Would that work?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 mai 2012 - 02:15 .

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Then we had nothing to worry about during the USA/USSR stand off then.
PS...Nothing in ME support that clam youjust made.
2.We did not destory the worldin that conflict because one side fell apart on their own. It won't be thateasy with another.
3. It not indifferanct that cause this extiction. Animal are themselve indifferent to animal that are not a threat to them and they don't kill animals that are indifferent, too. And Ox who is indifferent to a bird on his back won't kill it...The nature of conflict causes death. And OXbullwith kill another OX bull out of the nature of conflict.

The third point reinforces the fact that reapers tolerate primitive races, not sure how to fit it into anti-synthesis argument:unsure:

It's an argument that we don't kill people that weare indiffernent of. I never killed a random guy for no reason, no one in war has. Not even a murder. We kill based on he nature of conflict we have. A serial killer kills people because he enjoys killing. The thing that makes our natureof conflict dangerous isthe fact that wecan apply emotions and complexity to it.

I sorta get u mean now

1. we don't go to conflicts based on indifference
2. emotion (fear, ambition, vengence) -fuelled conflicts are dangerous because they often illogical and irrational

and so reinforces the validity of destroy option, because it is logical/rational

And it's the reason for the organic/synthetic conflict. AKA the quarians attcking the geth out of fear . Then later, Hate.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
As a result, I find it strange that this then doesn't invalidate the Catalyst's point, since a singularity on these terms is by definition something we can't predict past, the consequences of it will not ever be known until it happens.

Meaning the singualrity has to have occured to base any conclusion on it, which essentially undermines the original premise under all circumstances.

Hmm...perhaps not. Think of this origin story:

There was once an organic species that built seed AI. Only they were unusual in that when they did it, they were already so advanced that they could keep the AI in check post-singularity. For a time, anyway. They saw what was happening and built the Catalyst, giving it the knowledge from the observed singularity, before they and the original AI destroyed each other. The Catalyst was programmed to find a solution.

Would that work?



If the Catalyst is a post-singularity AI as I surmise, then it can predict it. The only question is why hasn't it destroyed organic life yet.

This is the issue I raise. He contradicts himself here.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 24 mai 2012 - 02:15 .

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
As a result, I find it strange that this then doesn't invalidate the Catalyst's point, since a singularity on these terms is by definition something we can't predict past, the consequences of it will not ever be known until it happens.

Meaning the singualrity has to have occured to base any conclusion on it, which essentially undermines the original premise under all circumstances.

Hmm...perhaps not. Think of this origin story:

There was once an organic species that built seed AI. Only they were unusual in that when they did it, they were already so advanced that they could keep the AI in check post-singularity. For a time, anyway. They saw what was happening and built the Catalyst, giving it the knowledge from the observed singularity, before they and the original AI destroyed each other. The Catalyst was programmed to find a solution.

Would that work?



If the Catalyst is a post-singularity AI as I surmise, then it can predict it. The only question is why hasn't it destroyed organic life yet.

This is the issue I raise. He contradicts himself here.

The problem with it is not synthetics allown...Remeber,on rennoch the quarians forced the geth to rebel.

Modifié par dreman9999, 24 mai 2012 - 02:25 .

[Taboo]

dreman9999 wrote...
Theproblem with it is not synthetic allown...Remeber,on rennochthe quarians forced the geth to rebel.

As synthetics, I would believe that the Geth would find the expendenture against organics to be unecessary. That is to say they would not activel seek out organics to wipe out. Everything would be for their production cycle.

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Theproblem with it is not synthetic allown...Remeber,on rennochthe quarians forced the geth to rebel.

As synthetics, I would believe that the Geth would find the expendenture against organics to be unecessary. That is to say they would not activel seek out organics to wipe out. Everything would be for their production cycle.

Which make synthesis pointless unless it has a way to control the nature of organics.

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I actually said was that "Joker and EDI look pretty much like themselves apart from cosmetic effects, Garrus looks like a turian, humans look like humans etc..". This was to counter baseless assumptions like "We're all turned into Reapers", "We will all be the same", "Total homogenization", "Individuality will be gone", "Everyone will be huskified", "All species will be destroyed" and similar ridiculous stuff. Plainly, this is Not What Happens.

Nice straw-man. Who here is arguing that the result would be physical homogenization?

"turned into reapers" and "all the same" and "huskified" and "all species destroyed" are metaphorical, something you surely are familiar with. The Catalyst's statement that everyone shares the same DNA framework and the resemblance of synthesis with the way reapers are created led to those statements. It's not literal, just as you say the Catalyst is not literal.

Straw man.

[clennon8]

Yeah, whatever, Ieldra. Synthesis is violative space magic garbage.

DESTROY.

[Taboo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Theproblem with it is not synthetic allown...Remeber,on rennochthe quarians forced the geth to rebel.

As synthetics, I would believe that the Geth would find the expendenture against organics to be unecessary. That is to say they would not activel seek out organics to wipe out. Everything would be for their production cycle.

Which make synthesis pointless unless it has a way to control the nature of organics.

I wouldn't fight unless necessary. The Geth could just as easily develop behind the Perseus Veil or some such. They can achieve whatever goal they wish and no one would be the wiser.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
As a result, I find it strange that this then doesn't invalidate the Catalyst's point, since a singularity on these terms is by definition something we can't predict past, the consequences of it will not ever be known until it happens.

Meaning the singualrity has to have occured to base any conclusion on it, which essentially undermines the original premise under all circumstances.

Hmm...perhaps not. Think of this origin story:

There was once an organic species that built seed AI. Only they were unusual in that when they did it, they were already so advanced that they could keep the AI in check post-singularity. For a time, anyway. They saw what was happening and built the Catalyst, giving it the knowledge from the observed singularity, before they and the original AI destroyed each other. The Catalyst was programmed to find a solution.

Would that work?



If the Catalyst is a post-singularity AI as I surmise, then it can predict it. The only question is why hasn't it destroyed organic life yet.

This is the issue I raise. He contradicts himself here.

Actually I deleted that line 10 seconds after posting because it stemmed from an earlier reasoning - it did not exactly because the Catalyst is NOT a seed AI. It was built the was it after another AI's singularity and did not have the capactiy to self-improve

@clennon8:
I have nothing more to say to people who would lobby to ruin my game.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 mai 2012 - 02:47 .

[Taboo]

Yes, I think we can agree that he has hit a feedback loop, the one I have mentioned a bit. He needs a variable to introduce Synthesis, and when Shepard comes, he gains that ability. Before that, he could not improve, which is why he continued the cycle. He could not think of a better way to do so.

I would think that if he was created by a singularity he wouldn't be doing what he does though, because by his reasoning the Synthetics would have wiped out all the organics.

Were did they go if such beings existed? Surely they have to be somewhere? Perhaps they left as I predicted? That is to say they reached a stage five Kardenshev civilization and left this dimension? I have no idea.

Fun though. I do enjoy these discussions with you, even if I sound pissy all the time. We have far much more interesting thinking here than in the endless hate threads.

[clennon8]

No 5000-word wall of text is going to get you around the fundamental issue of permission/violation, Ieldra. I can see how someone might pick Synthesis in the heat of the moment, before having time to consider the implications. But after having time to step back and think about just what you're doing? No. It is abhorrent at its very core. I don't care about your meta-logic and all the wonderfulness that you somehow extract from a couple lines of obtuse dialogue.

The game is already ruined for me. I only pick/advocate Destroy because it is slightly less vomit-inducing than the other two choices. I don't even care if IT is true or not.

Modifié par clennon8, 25 mai 2012 - 01:15 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
As a result, I find it strange that this then doesn't invalidate the Catalyst's point, since a singularity on these terms is by definition something we can't predict past, the consequences of it will not ever be known until it happens.

Meaning the singualrity has to have occured to base any conclusion on it, which essentially undermines the original premise under all circumstances.

Hmm...perhaps not. Think of this origin story:

There was once an organic species that built seed AI. Only they were unusual in that when they did it, they were already so advanced that they could keep the AI in check post-singularity. For a time, anyway. They saw what was happening and built the Catalyst, giving it the knowledge from the observed singularity, before they and the original AI destroyed each other. The Catalyst was programmed to find a solution.

Would that work?

Potentially, I can see the reasoning. 

A flaw I'd find though is that the seed AI's the original organics created were also destroyed, which leads me to question the 'inevitability' side of the Catalyt's argument. 

If indeed these AI's were created, they were only done so at a level where their creators could compete with them. 

[Taboo]

That's my issue with the Catalyst. He simply believes it's an inevitability and doesn't do much to convince me otherwise. I don't buy that and neither would my Shepard.

He's an AI that has hit a feedback loop. He has seen no better solution for millions of years. What is to say Synthesis is any better?

[Vigilant111]

Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?