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[Iakus]

 

Here's how to accept the Sythesis ending (or really any of them).  When Glowjob starts yammering his nonsense, turn off your volume.  Have someone else just push through the menu, because it doesn't matter what they pick.  Leave the room until the person pushing the buttons for you sees the big nonsense beam.  Walk forward and leap into it.  Make sure your volume is on when you do so you can be whisked away by the soaring music and visual effects.  When EDI starts speaking, turn off your volume again.  When it looks like a big screen shot with the camera heading to the sky, turn your volume on again and enjoy the crescendo.  Also turn off your volume again after the credits when the man talks to the kid about 'The Shepard '  <- Synthesis green

Personally, I'd rather not deal (even peripherally)  with an ending that tells me that neither organic nor synthetic life are worthy of existence because of what might happen in some distant, hypothetical future, but the "ideal" solution is to forcibly merge the two. 

[Ryriena]

Personally, I'd rather not deal (even peripherally) with an ending that tells me that neither organic nor synthetic life are worthy of existence because of what might happen in some distant, hypothetical future, but the "ideal" solution is to forcibly merge the two.

That's why I'm modified my version with MEHE.

[jtav]

Except if organic life becomes truly irrelevant to these hyper-advanced synthetics, there will really be nothing to fight over.
 
Land?  Resources?  Synthetics wouldn't need what organics have.  They don't need garden worlds.  And can mine asteroids for what is needed.  And considering how really freaking big the galaxy (and beyond) is, there's plenty of room for all. 
 
Heck the Reapers spend most of their time just hanging out in dark space.
 
You rightly pointed out the risks of power imbalance.  However, your example reinforces that this power imbalance exists among organics as well.  The Council could just as easily (more easily, really) glass over Parnack as indict it to keep the yahg from leaving.  Wars to extinction or near extinction have already been fought in recorded history.  And then there's the Leviathans.  One-sided conflicts will always be with us.  Synthetics or no.
 
What's interesting is, at the time of ME3, the only synthetic life that sees organics are irrelevant are...the Reapers themselves.  They are the self-fulfilling prophecy.  They aren't the solution to the problem, they are in fact the problem.

It's not really a matter of fighting. You know how we really don't care what the earthworms think when we decide to turn up the grass? Well, to this hypothetical future synthetic, we're the earthworm. The Catalyst thinks this hypothetical future synthetic will inevitably be created (and a fair number of RL types agree with him--google "AI singularity"). So he mows us down before we can and the hypothetical AI destroys all life instead of all spacefaring life. That there isn't any difference to us is what makes him the villain.

[Iakus]

It's not really a matter of fighting. You know how we really don't care what the earthworms think when we decide to turn up the grass? Well, to this hypothetical future synthetic, we're the earthworm. The Catalyst thinks this hypothetical future synthetic will inevitably be created (and a fair number of RL types agree with him--google "AI singularity"). So he mows us down before we can and the hypothetical AI destroys all life instead of all spacefaring life. That there isn't any difference to us is what makes him the villain.

 

But as I've said, there's no real reason for this hypothetical super-AI to even bother with organics.  For or against.  They can thrive in enviroments no organic, even the rahcni, could exist in.  Why would they bother to turn up our grass when they don't even need grass?

 

And as I've said, Reapers aside, almost no AIs seem to bear organics any malice.  At worst, they just want to be left alone

[Farangbaa]

But as I've said, there's no real reason for this hypothetical super-AI to even bother with organics.  For or against.  They can thrive in enviroments no organic, even the rahcni, could exist in.  Why would they bother to turn up our grass when they don't even need grass?

 

And as I've said, Reapers aside, almost no AIs seem to bear organics any malice.  At worst, they just want to be left alone

 

The Super AI was created by organics to bother with organics.

[Farangbaa]

That was one problem I always had with the ending. I was a die hard ITist. Once you have that belief it is very difficult to shake any lingering doubt about the way the game ends. I still go back and forth with it. It was that shock of the Original Ending.

 

There are far more transhumans in the story than Bioware acknowledges. The conversation in ME1 about the invitro gene therapy there is a line that it is safer than any of the implants that Alliance Soldiers receive on a routine basis. Yet that is the only line in the entire trilogy that acknowledges it. Biotics receive biotic amp implants to augment their abilities. Quarians receive cybernetic implants before leaving on their pilgrimages.

 

I think my point is that they really didn't need to force the synthesis ending in the hamfisted manner they did. Synthesis was happening at a natural pace already, but no, it had to be made a reaper solution, and I think that's why it was rejected by a lot of players, myself included. 

 

Bioware needs to rethink the way they write endings.

 

Transhumanism only does half of what synthesis does, namely: adding synthetic parts to organics.

 

Adding organic parts to a synthetic is a whole different ballgame. (relate this to how relatively easy we can make robots, not full AI, but working robots. We're only beginning to have a slight clue on how to construct a minimal cell)

[Iakus]

The Super AI was created by organics to bother with organics.

 

So, what the root of the Catalyst's "problem" is that synthetics don't want to be a slave race?

[Farangbaa]

So, what the root of the Catalyst's "problem" is that synthetics don't want to be a slave race?

 

It's pretty damn obvious you have MEHEM.

[jtav]

Iakus, the problem the AI is trying to solve is this, basically.

http://wiki.lesswron...rclip_maximizer

[Iakus]

Iakus, the problem the AI is trying to solve is this, basically.

http://wiki.lesswron...rclip_maximizer

Except that up until literally the final minutes of the game, there is no indication that this has ever been a problem in the Mass Effect universe.  Ever.  in fact, a defining characteristic for AI has not been the single-minded drive towards an ultimate preprogrammed goal, but the search for purpose in their effectively immortal existence.

 

Even EDI has shown that she is capable of altering her programing and goals in the face of new data.  The fact that a so-called hypoerintelligent AI like the Catalyst was incapable of this shows how dissonant the reasoning was.

[AlanC9]

It's pretty damn obvious you have MEHEM.

Isn't it in his sig?

[Iakus]

Isn't it in his sig?

That would make it obvious, yes.

 

Though I fail to see what it has to do with anything here. 

[Farangbaa]

Except that up until literally the final minutes of the game, there is no indication that this has ever been a problem in the Mass Effect universe. 

 

because of the Catalyst.

 

The fact that a so-called hypoerintelligent AI like the Catalyst was incapable of this shows how dissonant the reasoning was.

 

It's obviously shackled, and thus still trying to achieve it's goal. The Leviathan agree.

 

Isn't it in his sig?

 

Ah duh.

[Iakus]

because of the Catalyst.

 

 

Do you not see how this is a problem, from a storytelling perspective? 

 

 

It's obviously shackled, and thus still trying to achieve it's goal. The Leviathan agree.

 

 

If the Catalyst could start  the cycles, it can stop them as well if its solution "won't work anymore".

[Farangbaa]

Do you not see how this is a problem, from a storytelling perspective? 

 

Nope. What he's preventing from happening doesn't happen. I see no problem with that, it just means it's very succesful in what it does. And besides, it's not true that nothing like that ever happens in the MEU, because it does. The Leviathan witness it numerous times, the Catalyst confirms it before coming up with it's solution

 

If the Catalyst could start  the cycles, it can stop them as well if its solution "won't work anymore".

 

And that's exactly what happens in the ending of ME3.

 

Time to uninstall MEHEM.

[Massa FX]

This thread is from a year ago today.

 

Dead. Dead. Let it go!

 

[Iakus]

Nope. What he's preventing from happening doesn't happen. I see no problem with that, it just means it's very succesful in what it does. And besides, it's not true that nothing like that ever happens in the MEU, because it does. The Leviathan witness it numerous times, the Catalyst confirms it before coming up with it's solution

 

No, nothing like this has ever happened in the Mass Effect trilogy.  There is zero evidence that what the Catalyst fears could ever happen.  There is zero evidence that Synthesis is needed or even desired.  It's a solution to a problem we never see. 

 

And for $10, you can purchase a dlc which has a flimsy hearsay excuse to justify the Catalyst's reasonsing.

 

If Synthesis is to be plugged as teh most ideal solution, or even as a solution at all, we need evidence that justifies teh Catalyst even bringing it up.

 

 

And that's exactly what happens in the ending of ME3.

 

Time to uninstall MEHEM.

 

 

"SO BE IT!!!! 

 

The cycle continues"

 

Right after admitting the cycles won't work anymore.

 

So yeah I'm going to stick with what I have

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nope. What he's preventing from happening doesn't happen. I see no problem with that, it just means it's very succesful in what it does. And besides, it's not true that nothing like that ever happens in the MEU, because it does. The Leviathan witness it numerous times, the Catalyst confirms it before coming up with it's solution

 

 

And that's exactly what happens in the ending of ME3.

 

Time to uninstall MEHEM.

 

The problem is that the ending is supplanting the original conflict of the entire series with something entirely different, one that the player has no attachment to and, even worse, undercut by the story itself (consider who the AIs in ME3 are: EDI, who loves a boy; and the Geth, which the game beats us over the head with how nice and sparing of organics they are). This leaves the new, more complicated conflict being explained in the last 15 minutes. This makes the ending feel disjointed and jarring. Just to give an example of how disconnected the ending is to the rest of the story, the Geth/Quarrian conflict -- which is our microcosm of the entire AI vs organic conflict in the Mass Effect universe -- has no impact on the ending sequence, nor is it even mentioned. The ending just feels isolated from the rest of the story, when an ending should be an accumulation and climax of what came before it.

 

As for the Catalyst, it does not stop the cycle, the Crucible does. Even though it acknowledges that its solution won't work any more it proceeds with that solution anyway in the Refuse ending. Even worse the Catalyst a minute earlier was so committed to this notion that it was willing to let Shepard destroy it and all the Reapers, although that would completely oppose it's original programming. Unfortunately, Shepard doesn't pick up on this and ask the Catalyst why it just can't leave or order the Reapers to self destruct. The only difference between this and the Destroy option is that the Crucible is used.

 

Synthesis, sums up the ending pretty well. The ideal solution (at least in terms of War Assets i.e. how well you played the game) is something that was never brought up in the entire series (in all of science fiction really, how often is there a fusing of organics and synthetic DNA). I mean it's nice sounding, but, boy, does it feel anti-climatic.

[Farangbaa]

"SO BE IT!!!! 

 

The cycle continues"

 

Right after admitting the cycles won't work anymore.

 

So yeah I'm going to stick with what I have

 

Yes, because YOU can operate the Crucible, the Catalyst can't. If you refuse, it has no better solutions available anymore, so it sticks to the only one remaining, even though it knows it's not the best solution. (don't forget that in his views destroy is not a solution at all, it would be ridiculous for him to act out on that solution on his own accord by self destructing the Reapers.. if he can even do that at all.)

 

No, nothing like this has ever happened in the Mass Effect trilogy.  There is zero evidence that what the Catalyst fears could ever happen.  There is zero evidence that Synthesis is needed or even desired.  It's a solution to a problem we never see. 

 

And for $10, you can purchase a dlc which has a flimsy hearsay excuse to justify the Catalyst's reasonsing.

 

If Synthesis is to be plugged as teh most ideal solution, or even as a solution at all, we need evidence that justifies teh Catalyst even bringing it up.

 

If you see it happen it's already too late.

 

And it's not like the Catalyst brings up any new ideas, the tech singularity is an idea that exists for over a century already, in real life.

 

You want to see decisive proof that synthetics will destroy organics. You wouldn't be in the decision chamber if you had.

 

@Imaginary

See above.

 

The part of 'merging synthetic and organic DNA' is absolutely horrible though, I'll agree with that.

 

And I don't really see the ending as supplanting one conflict with another. It gives reason to the conflict you are in (vs the Reapers), it doesn't create a new one (vs Synthetics)

[AlanC9]

Wait... I'm a little lost here. It would be better if the Catalyst was provably right about synthetics? I mean, personally I dig the irony of the hero being on the wrong side of things -- I'm one of the few who probably would have liked the DE plot resolution -- but I don't see how this would improve things for most of us.

[Iakus]

Yes, because YOU can operate the Crucible, the Catalyst can't. If you refuse, it has no better solutions available anymore, so it sticks to the only one remaining, even though it knows it's not the best solution.

 

It's already admitted that it's solution won't work.  if it's such a mighty AI of phenomenal cosmic power, maybe it should apply that towards creating a new solution.  maybe a  version of synthesis.  It's tried it before, after all.  But now it knows it can work!

 

 

If you see it happen it's already too late.

 

And it's not like the Catalyst brings up any new ideas, the tech singularity is an idea that exists for over a century already, in real life.

 

You want to see decisive proof that synthetics will destroy organics. You wouldn't be in the decision chamber if you had.

 

 

It's ideas are new to the ME universe.  AIs have been portrayed as no more dangerous than any other organic life form.  If you want to convince me Synthsis is a solution, you have to convince me there's a problem to begin with.  And not just a philosophical "What if" problem either.

[Iakus]

Wait... I'm a little lost here. It would be better if the Catalyst was provably right about synthetics? I mean, personally I dig the irony of the hero being on the wrong side of things -- I'm one of the few who probably would have liked the DE plot resolution -- but I don't see how this would improve things for most of us.

 

Heck Dragon Age does a credible job of showing us that mages are inherently dangerous.  Both in lore and in presentation. 

 

Though I really hope they don't present some sort of Synthesis as the "answer" there either

[Farangbaa]

Maybe we'll see it all happen in ME4, when destroy is canonized and we face our new Synthetic Overlord

[themikefest]

Heck Dragon Age does a credible job of showing us that mages are inherently dangerous.  Both in lore and in presentation. 

 

Though I really hope they don't present some sort of Synthesis as the "answer" there either

Everyone would be half mage, half templar

[Farangbaa]

It's ideas are new to the ME universe.  AIs have been portrayed as no more dangerous than any other organic life form.  If you want to convince me Synthsis is a solution, you have to convince me there's a problem to begin with.  And not just a philosophical "What if" problem either.

 

It is not a new idea to the ME universe.

 

Or do you really want to argue that the Quarians killed the Geth for fun and not because they were doing something illegal?