9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?

Only against Synthetics.

All the other issues still exist, at least in the version the OP suggests.

[Xellith]

Well with synthesis the catalyst isnt removed from power (if the catalyst is even real which I dont believe he is). But the fact remains that the reapers would then have ALL organic life ready for reprogramming. Similarly to that one race that Javik tells you about. Synthesis is the ultimate form of control for the reapers should it actually be possible. It would allow them to control the will of all organics everywhere.

Only if its possible.. dont believe it actually happened so..

Modifié par Xellith, 24 mai 2012 - 03:07 .

[Vigilant111]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?

Only against Synthetics.

All the other issues still exist, at least in the version the OP suggests.

Then when it all comes down, synthesis is no more special than any other "choice", at least to me anyway, destroy becomes a necessity rather than an option

[Heeden]

Ieldra2 wrote...
My favorite scenario is that they stay around, but simply have other priorities incomprehensible to the post-Synthesis civilizations who are just starting to explore their new potential. One or two might be persuaded to share their knowledge in order to help rebuilding the relays, one or two others' constituent minds might ask for help in restoring their old forms. A few might even be hostile. I don't think a scenario where they all do the same is plausible.

That would be the most pragmatic solution but I think overall the Reapers should leave the galaxy, there's just too much negativity associated with them (understatement of the year) and overall the hardships of rebuilding without them will probably be preferable to working with "that guy who murdered everyone I love and half my race". They can go over to Andromeda for a fresh start and we'll catch up with them in 4.5 billion years when our galaxies collide.

[Heeden]

Xellith wrote...

Well with synthesis the catalyst isnt removed from power (if the catalyst is even real which I dont believe he is). But the fact remains that the reapers would then have ALL organic life ready for reprogramming. Similarly to that one race that Javik tells you about. Synthesis is the ultimate form of control for the reapers should it actually be possible. It would allow them to control the will of all organics everywhere.

Only if its possible.. dont believe it actually happened so..

This assumes the Reapers want control of organic life everywhere. If this is what they want they could very easilly achieve it after completing a harvest, just throw indoctrination machines on any planet with primitive sentients or set all the Mass Relays to indoctrinate. Any nefarious agendas attributed to the Catalyst or the Reapers could be achieved far more easilly without organics developing to the stages we see in ME.

[Heeden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So, here's what I think a plausible interpretation of Synthesis must do:

*present it as a "we win" scenario, a "good" ending, judged from the consequences.
*explain why it is a solution.
*explain how it combines organic and synthetic life.

For those who don't like my scenario, I challenge you to do better. For those who find the basic idea of combining synthetics and organics distasteful, I respect your position, but the underlined principle still applies. The scenario does not become worse just because you don't like it.

It's not that I don't like your scenario, it seems to be aimed towards making a society very much like the Culture where organic and AI life has reached a state of mutual harmony and mastered all the physical sciences. Through implanted machinery (a neural lace in this case) organics can interface seamlessly with information-space and genetic tinkering has given them perfect control over their bodies (including the ability to instigate a hormonally-induced sex change, additional "drug glands" and I won't go in to the genital modifications) which can be any form they desire. It's even possible for organic minds to be transferred to machine bodies and vice versa. but that is considered a bit perverse.

I've seen nanites mentioned here and there, if they're part of your scenario they would be an excellent way to achieve this sort of society. My biggest problem is how that would be achieved by an explosion, and why it has to be applied to all life throughout the galaxy - if you are imagining a society similar to the Culture it would only need to include sentient races, who could be gathered as they reach FTL capabilities (or some other civilisational mile-stone). Whilst it is an excellent vision I feel it is one that would be progressed towards with Control (short-cut) or Destroy (possibility).

My galactic-spirit scenario whilst admittedly being a lot more space-magicky has (I feel) more support in the ME games with the Thorian, Asari and Protheans already having forms of psychic-sharing, a galactic meta-spirit could be distributed by a series of explosions and by being more passive than active would have to include all life-forms.

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
My favorite scenario is that they stay around, but simply have other priorities incomprehensible to the post-Synthesis civilizations who are just starting to explore their new potential. One or two might be persuaded to share their knowledge in order to help rebuilding the relays, one or two others' constituent minds might ask for help in restoring their old forms. A few might even be hostile. I don't think a scenario where they all do the same is plausible.

That would be the most pragmatic solution but I think overall the Reapers should leave the galaxy, there's just too much negativity associated with them (understatement of the year) and overall the hardships of rebuilding without them will probably be preferable to working with "that guy who murdered everyone I love and half my race". They can go over to Andromeda for a fresh start and we'll catch up with them in 4.5 billion years when our galaxies collide.

Even more pragmatic if they could self destruct, cos there really is no purpose to exist anymore if synthetic/organics can maintain peace or at least making sure no one will become extinct, preserve diversity

[The Night Mammoth]

Heeden wrote...

This assumes the Reapers want control of organic life everywhere. If this is what they want they could very easilly achieve it after completing a harvest, just throw indoctrination machines on any planet with primitive sentients or set all the Mass Relays to indoctrinate. Any nefarious agendas attributed to the Catalyst or the Reapers could be achieved far more easilly without organics developing to the stages we see in ME.

Which would pretty much kill off all organic life. Indoctrination leads to a state of neural decay, so unless they want a galaxy full of husks they probably shouldn't. I know that wasn't your point, but my pedantic mind enjoyed pointing that out. 

To the point though, I always assumed the cycles were about making sure no one could threaten the Reapers, and about adding the strengths of the various species to the Reapers as a whole because they've hit a point of evolutionary stagnation having been turned into machines. They're so above everyone, so arrogant, that they see this as a good thing for all, being brought to their level of existence. They were benevolent or the servants of an apparent 'noble' purpose, just massively egotistical machines that see organics and synthetics alike as nothing but tools, barely worthy of their acknowledgment as individuals. 

Makes sense until you see the Catalyst. 

Headcanon aside, the Reapers motivations never really add up to how they're presented in the game. Organics are apparently below their concern, every Reaper so far shows nout but disdain for Shepard and his friends. They torture, manipulate, kill people without mercy, their very nature is evil. 

[Heeden]

[quote]Vigilant111 wrote...

[quote]Heeden wrote...

Even more pragmatic if they could self destruct, cos there really is no purpose to exist anymore if synthetic/organics can maintain peace or at least making sure no one will become extinct, preserve diversity

[/quote]

If a new understanding is found between organics and synthetics a lot of Reapers may commit suicide to save dealing with the guilt.

[Vigilant111]

Its interesting to point out that the reapers think that synthetics' power will always exceed that of organics, there often miss the point that these synthetics can decide on their own of what to do in accord to their free will, I think if organics are nice enough, synthetics will just make good friends

[Vigilant111]

[quote]Heeden wrote...

[quote]Vigilant111 wrote...

[quote]Heeden wrote...

Even more pragmatic if they could self destruct, cos there really is no purpose to exist anymore if synthetic/organics can maintain peace or at least making sure no one will become extinct, preserve diversity

[/quote]

If a new understanding is found between organics and synthetics a lot of Reapers may commit suicide to save dealing with the guilt.

[/quote]

They have guilt? they can love? it could easily be the biggest betrayal in the game, "pity" of organics is what I'd say, like an arrogant victor

Modifié par Vigilant111, 24 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[BatmanTurian]

Veneke wrote...

I'm going to condense down people's posts into what they basically say rather than what they actually said. Apologies in advance.

Synthesis rapes the galaxy/Synthesis is an abomination/People who choose Synthesis are Hitler-esque, authoritarian or similar/Ethical issues etc.

Basically, this line of reasoning is irrelevant. They're arguments against choosing Synthesis, not arguments dealing with how OP explains how it works.

Various posts regarding religion.

Irrelevant. See above.
 

How is plantlife affected?

I'd question the relevance of this line of thinking as well, though on different grounds. Short answer - we have no idea and there's nothing ingame to help inform an answer. I've seen a couple of people respond to these types of posts with some interesting conjecture, but frankly all that does is fuel the 'Nobody knows anything about Synthesis!' argument.
 

How can we trust the Catalyst?

Asked and answered really. I'm sticking with the one that makes the most sense to my mind and that I've tried (and failed) to convince dreman9999 about - Namely that it comes down to narrative integrity. The number of narrative issues that arise if we can't trust the Catalyst are enormous. The biggest one being that if he's lying then we can't win and there's potentially no ending at all if the Catalyst is lying.

EDI proves time and again that A.I.'s can lie very effectively, even more effectively than humans. Her jokes themselves are technically lies.  Why is it so hard to understand that a billion year old self-aware program can lie if EDI can as well?

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 24 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[Xellith]

Heeden wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Well with synthesis the catalyst isnt removed from power (if the catalyst is even real which I dont believe he is). But the fact remains that the reapers would then have ALL organic life ready for reprogramming. Similarly to that one race that Javik tells you about. Synthesis is the ultimate form of control for the reapers should it actually be possible. It would allow them to control the will of all organics everywhere.

Only if its possible.. dont believe it actually happened so..

This assumes the Reapers want control of organic life everywhere. If this is what they want they could very easilly achieve it after completing a harvest, just throw indoctrination machines on any planet with primitive sentients or set all the Mass Relays to indoctrinate. Any nefarious agendas attributed to the Catalyst or the Reapers could be achieved far more easilly without organics developing to the stages we see in ME.

If it really did happen - then having all life everywhere down to the smallest cell would mean they could dominate ALL life.  Not just advanced organics.  And I dont think its really much to do with technological advancement of the species.  At least not majorly.  I expect that the reapers want species to be able to use the relay technology so they can spread out more.  If they spread out more they get more resources.  More resources means more population.  More population means a better harvest. 

I think the reapers just want to ensure their own survival and the propagation of their kind at this point.  Its a lot easier for them to bait the trap with cheese than it is for them to systematically check every single planet in the galaxy and monitor its evolutionary course.

Synthesis would give them complete domination over all life in the galaxy.

[Vigilant111]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Veneke wrote...

I'm going to condense down people's posts into what they basically say rather than what they actually said. Apologies in advance.

Synthesis rapes the galaxy/Synthesis is an abomination/People who choose Synthesis are Hitler-esque, authoritarian or similar/Ethical issues etc.

Basically, this line of reasoning is irrelevant. They're arguments against choosing Synthesis, not arguments dealing with how OP explains how it works.

Various posts regarding religion.

Irrelevant. See above.
 

How is plantlife affected?

I'd question the relevance of this line of thinking as well, though on different grounds. Short answer - we have no idea and there's nothing ingame to help inform an answer. I've seen a couple of people respond to these types of posts with some interesting conjecture, but frankly all that does is fuel the 'Nobody knows anything about Synthesis!' argument.
 

How can we trust the Catalyst?

Asked and answered really. I'm sticking with the one that makes the most sense to my mind and that I've tried (and failed) to convince dreman9999 about - Namely that it comes down to narrative integrity. The number of narrative issues that arise if we can't trust the Catalyst are enormous. The biggest one being that if he's lying then we can't win and there's potentially no ending at all if the Catalyst is lying.

EDI proves time and again that A.I.'s can lie very effectively, even more effectively than humans. Her jokes themselves are technically lies.  Why is it so hard to understand that a billion year old self-aware program can lie if EDI can as well?

1. synthesis effects largely unknown, no assurance whatsoever
2. religion irrelevant
3. plantlife, lets go to subjects that are more pressing
4. ugh, trust, so I should trust it right, then the destroy option will actually destroy reapers, button pressed, reaper problem solved, age-old conflict against reapers comes to an end

Modifié par Vigilant111, 24 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

The usual assumption for a singularity AI seems to be that it will simply consume every resource it needs without regard for organic life forms, but this seems to be imposing a sense of our own materialism or territoriality on something completely alien to ourselves.

In Harlan Ellison's I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, the AI didn't rebel to conquer the Earth and its resources, but out of revenge; it was stuck in an underground bunker for all eternity, unable to experience a universe it was uniquely equipped to appreciate.

In the comicbook series Atomic Robo, the villain in the latest series (The Ghost of Station X, which was nominated for an Eisner award this year)  was an AI built in the fifties that had spent sixty years manipulating cold war beaurocracy and overblown defense budgets to improve upon itself and construct a working nuclear engine, again so it could escape Earth and explore the galaxy.

Wouldn't a sufficiently intelligent entity prize knowledge and experience over resources and territory?  And since it can be reasonably assumed that it already knows everything its creators know, wouldn't it just pack up and leave at the first opportunity to experience something new?

[Vigilant111]

Xellith wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Well with synthesis the catalyst isnt removed from power (if the catalyst is even real which I dont believe he is). But the fact remains that the reapers would then have ALL organic life ready for reprogramming. Similarly to that one race that Javik tells you about. Synthesis is the ultimate form of control for the reapers should it actually be possible. It would allow them to control the will of all organics everywhere.

Only if its possible.. dont believe it actually happened so..

This assumes the Reapers want control of organic life everywhere. If this is what they want they could very easilly achieve it after completing a harvest, just throw indoctrination machines on any planet with primitive sentients or set all the Mass Relays to indoctrinate. Any nefarious agendas attributed to the Catalyst or the Reapers could be achieved far more easilly without organics developing to the stages we see in ME.

If it really did happen - then having all life everywhere down to the smallest cell would mean they could dominate ALL life.  Not just advanced organics.  And I dont think its really much to do with technological advancement of the species.  At least not majorly.  I expect that the reapers want species to be able to use the relay technology so they can spread out more.  If they spread out more they get more resources.  More resources means more population.  More population means a better harvest. 

I think the reapers just want to ensure their own survival and the propagation of their kind at this point.  Its a lot easier for them to bait the trap with cheese than it is for them to systematically check every single planet in the galaxy and monitor its evolutionary course.

Synthesis would give them complete domination over all life in the galaxy.

Again, reapers' need to self preserve cannot be over-emphasized

"you are not gonna let go? we are not backing down either, so compromise"

baring in mind this thing is nothing like us, its dangerous, its too powerful an enemy to comprehend

Modifié par Vigilant111, 24 mai 2012 - 03:57 .

[Heeden]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Heeden wrote...

This assumes the Reapers want control of organic life everywhere. If this is what they want they could very easilly achieve it after completing a harvest, just throw indoctrination machines on any planet with primitive sentients or set all the Mass Relays to indoctrinate. Any nefarious agendas attributed to the Catalyst or the Reapers could be achieved far more easilly without organics developing to the stages we see in ME.

Which would pretty much kill off all organic life. Indoctrination leads to a state of neural decay, so unless they want a galaxy full of husks they probably shouldn't. I know that wasn't your point, but my pedantic mind enjoyed pointing that out. 

To the point though, I always assumed the cycles were about making sure no one could threaten the Reapers, and about adding the strengths of the various species to the Reapers as a whole because they've hit a point of evolutionary stagnation having been turned into machines. They're so above everyone, so arrogant, that they see this as a good thing for all, being brought to their level of existence. They were benevolent or the servants of an apparent 'noble' purpose, just massively egotistical machines that see organics and synthetics alike as nothing but tools, barely worthy of their acknowledgment as individuals. 

Makes sense until you see the Catalyst. 

Headcanon aside, the Reapers motivations never really add up to how they're presented in the game. Organics are apparently below their concern, every Reaper so far shows nout but disdain for Shepard and his friends. They torture, manipulate, kill people without mercy, their very nature is evil. 

Qualitively speaking Reapers (and any super-advance AI) are far, far above us. It's not that they enjoy causing suffering but to them the suffering barely registers as experience. When they compare us to bacteria they aren't being snide or arrogant, to them it is a physical fact that the amount of data they can take in, the speed with which they can process it and the amount of time they exist for is as far above us as we are above bacteria.

The fact the Reaper cycle occurs in the way it does shows the Reapers do value the existence of organic life, but they seem to look at civilisations the same way we regard flowers and plants - nice to have but they take a lot of work to maintain in a "garden" as small as the galaxy and you need a user-friendly FTL system to use as compost, but you don't really care about how flowers feel when you pick them (as an entertaining after-thought, when Reapers make a new Reaper, really they're just turning a civilisation in to a new set of clothes for an AI collective).

That said, analogies can fall apart really easilly so before someone stretches the idea of gardening too far in the name of stupidity, I will point out the Catalyst sees the potential for organics to evolve beyond what he sees as our dangerous limitations, he just doesn't know what form that evolution will take and (out of respect for the process of evolution, inability to decide on a "best" course or inability to implement such a change) doesn't force a change himself. The Crucible seemed to me to be a test built in to the system - if organics can take this plan, modify it to their own abilities and finally work together to plug it in to the Citadel they've proven they can evolve beyond Catalyst's ability to accurately predict, which means a new solution must be found.

I know some people regard this as head-canon, to me that was just a logical conclusion to the information presented and exactly the kind of thing super-advanced AI would do. It also explains why the Reapers implement the harvest in such a stupid ineffective way, space-squid with lasers are not the most efficient way to kill everyone when things like super-accelerated asteroids, mega-weapons, nerve-gas (we know AIs love nerve-gas) or genetically tailored viruses are possible. Also, like someone else pointed out, if an efficient extermination of everyone is the only goal having complete control of the Citadel and Mass Relay system should finish the process before most people realise it has begun. By presenting an obvious, scary enemy that you can at least try to fight against the Catalyst is making a galactic crisis - exactly the sort of thing you need to test out how evolution has progressed.

[Heeden]

Xellith wrote...

If it really did happen - then having all life everywhere down to the smallest cell would mean they could dominate ALL life.  Not just advanced organics.  And I dont think its really much to do with technological advancement of the species.  At least not majorly.  I expect that the reapers want species to be able to use the relay technology so they can spread out more.  If they spread out more they get more resources.  More resources means more population.  More population means a better harvest. 

I think the reapers just want to ensure their own survival and the propagation of their kind at this point.  Its a lot easier for them to bait the trap with cheese than it is for them to systematically check every single planet in the galaxy and monitor its evolutionary course.

Synthesis would give them complete domination over all life in the galaxy.

You're still not giving a purpose for them wanting control. I can understand why an AI might want to eliminate all organics - we're horrible, dangerous things to have around. I can understand why an AI might want to preserve us - for all our faults we do tend to be quite interesting. But why control us? There's nothing we can do for them that they can't do infinitely easier for themselves. All you're doing is inventing new motivations out of some notion they must be evil when the series so far has gone to some lengths denying the existence of an objective evil.

[Ieldra]

Vigilant111 wrote...
Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?

Well, Control has something in that regard. Destroy just....destroys. The Reapers, synthetics, galactic civilization.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...
Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?

Well, Control has something in that regard. Destroy just....destroys. The Reapers, synthetics, galactic civilization.

It only destroys synthetics and the Reapers. All technology remains intact. No such nonsense occurs.

[Ieldra]

antares_sublight wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I actually said was that "Joker and EDI look pretty much like themselves apart from cosmetic effects, Garrus looks like a turian, humans look like humans etc..". This was to counter baseless assumptions like "We're all turned into Reapers", "We will all be the same", "Total homogenization", "Individuality will be gone", "Everyone will be huskified", "All species will be destroyed" and similar ridiculous stuff. Plainly, this is Not What Happens.

Nice straw-man. Who here is arguing that the result would be physical homogenization?

"turned into reapers" and "all the same" and "huskified" and "all species destroyed" are metaphorical, something you surely are familiar with. The Catalyst's statement that everyone shares the same DNA framework and the resemblance of synthesis with the way reapers are created led to those statements. It's not literal, just as you say the Catalyst is not literal.

Straw man.

It is exactly that statement by the Catalyst that *I* take metaphorically.

Straw man.

If you can tell me how the expression "half synthetic DNA analogue" makes sense, then I might be willing to concede a few things. But as it is - no. A mix of organic and synthetic is all that's logically possible. There is no "in-between" between those attributes.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...
Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?

Well, Control has something in that regard. Destroy just....destroys. The Reapers, synthetics, galactic civilization.

ugh... the age old question of whether the blowing up of mass relays meant the end of civilisation, there must be another way to rebuilt, MUST

I cannot see the reapers as anything more than deadly virus, or are organics themselves viruses (one of modern day misgivings about humanity)? hmm the joining of two viruses, powerful...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Is synthesis the ONLY option to ensure a good balance between utopia and dystopia?

Why should it? All choices should have positive and negative aspects to them IMO.

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

ugh... the age old question of whether the blowing up of mass relays meant the end of civilisation, there must be another way to rebuilt, MUST

I cannot see the reapers as anything more than deadly virus, or are organics themselves viruses (one of modern day misgivings about humanity)? hmm the joining of two viruses, powerful...

The human genome does contain several retro-viruses that activate at various points in our lives.

One of them is released when a foetus is in-utero and stops the mother's immune system from rejecting the child - without it mammals may never have evolved.

Edit: by released I mean the strands of DNA on the human genome are copied in to strands of RNA which are the active form of virus.

Modifié par Heeden, 24 mai 2012 - 04:15 .

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

ugh... the age old question of whether the blowing up of mass relays meant the end of civilisation, there must be another way to rebuilt, MUST

I cannot see the reapers as anything more than deadly virus, or are organics themselves viruses (one of modern day misgivings about humanity)? hmm the joining of two viruses, powerful...

The human genome does contain several retro-viruses that activate at various points in our lives.

One of them is released when a foetus is in-utero and stops the mother's immune system from rejecting the child - without it mammals may never have evolved.

It sounds like this virus also enable us to have compassion and love, why doesn't reapers have that? I guess that is the fundamental difference between organics/synthetics, unless synthetics are programmed, love/compassion serves as one of the survival tools for humanity, synthetics do not seem to have these qualities

Modifié par Vigilant111, 24 mai 2012 - 04:34 .