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[wolfhowwl]

I'm replaying ME1. There was more of a transhuman theme in ME1 than I remembered. It's like Mac completely forgot about it. I posted that it was proceeding naturally, and now with the reapers in the ending... it was once again... forced.

 

"We have tried but it has always failed. It is not something that can be... forced."

 

 

If only there had been an opportunity in Mass Effect 2 to to build a transhuman theme like the protagonist dying and being revived as a cyborg. That could have been pretty interesting.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't have just been used as a cheap plot device and for a Princess Bride reference.

[Iakus]

 

As hard as this may be for people to swallow, I find it rather intriguing that the only reason that organic life still exists in any meaningful way is because of the Catalyst's intervention. Now, why do I like the thought? Because it forces us into a very uncomfortable place. It forces us to think on scales that we aren't used to, to consider the pointlessness of our individual existence. The Catalyst doesn't care about individuals, but it "cares" about life on the grandest scale. Mass Effect 3's ending forces us to consider our petty existence in the grand scheme of things. Interestingly, Shepard is not a petty existence because he/she makes the most important decision of the last one billion years, and will likely be remembered for all time.

 

I find it pretty stupid to tell the truth.

 

This hyperintelligent AI is going to protect us from being destroyed by hyperintelligent AIs by...destroying organics and turning them into hyperintelligent AIs that will destroy other organics and turn them into hyperintelligent AIs...

 

This strikes me as the exact opposite of intelligence.  this is a logic flaw EDI would never have gotten caught up in, and the Catalyst is supposed to be order of magnitude more advanced.

 

Well, you're right in that it forces people to consider the pointlessness of human existence.  It rendered this trilogy pretty pointless 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm curious, Massively, why you don't choose Control and headcanon that Shepard has himself cloned.

 

Too much of a problem with the technology behind the Catalyst and how I'd be a synthetic intelligence guided by an organic mandate that might lead to a logic bomb of sorts. 

[Vigilant111]

Here's my take.

The ending is atrociously written, with neither the Catalyst, the problem, or the solution, grounded in the story. I do like that there's no winning scenario and that this is a choice among ideologies. I like the epilogues. I like the tone shift. I like that a certain class of player was angered. But the ending was still a mess.

 

What is this tone shift you are speaking of? Were you comparing the endings of each game of the trilogy? or were you talking about the ME3 ending in relation to the whole trilogy?

 

Either way I do not feel there is a massive change in tone, many choices throughout the games have dark overtones, and sometimes bad consequences ensue from "paragon" actions, albeit badly shown

 

Now, let us ignore all the moralities and philosophies for a moment and consider synthesis, can we really say it is an ending with a dark overtone? or with a tone that has shifted from the previous "happy" mass effect games? Where is this "loss" in synthesis? Also, in synthesis, it seems that EVERYBODY wins, not "no winning"

 

@Massively...and no, spamming the top left corner dialogue is NOT a right, but a privilege, you had to work hard, do many mindless quests, speak to and not kill people you dislike, being patient when the situation is deteriorating and be thoughtful of future consequences. Yes, BW is biased towards paragons but that doesn't mean they get a jail-free card for every decision they make

[Iakus]

Too much of a problem with the technology behind the Catalyst and how I'd be a synthetic intelligence guided by an organic mandate that might lead to a logic bomb of sorts.

 

What are the odds of that happening...again?  

[Obadiah]

@CosmicGnosis
It's the kind of plot where I wish Shepard had said something dramatic to the Catalyst like, "My God, look what you've done."

I like that the Organics and Synthetics represent two halves of a potential whole. The Reapers and Catalyst represent the unbridled power and ability that Organics can create taken to an extreme, without real purpose or motivation. In contrast Organics have purpose, motivations, ambition, but limitations to their power and perspective. The clinical detached perspective of an AI gives it the ability to solve a problem in a terrible way. Organics might not even acknowledge the problem.

That's pretty much what the Catalyst tries to do at the end, force Shepard to recognize and take responsibility for the problem. The story switched rather dramatically from camaraderie, togetherness, compassion, and perseverance, to terrible responsibility.

Apart, we mistrust and destroy each other. Together...

[Obadiah]

double oops

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If only there had been an opportunity in Mass Effect 2 to to build a transhuman theme like the protagonist dying and being revived as a cyborg. That could have been pretty interesting.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't have just been used as a cheap plot device and for a Princess Bride reference.

 

It wasn't that way at all. It is a typical Bioware plot.

 

Spoiler

Grey Warden Theory:

Shepard had to die to become infected by the taint. To become the chosen; the ONE. He partakes of the forbidden fruit of the techology of the enemy by having it buried within him, thus making Shepard immune to indoctrination. Shepard can be around reaper artifacts and not feel the ill effects of indoctrination.

And like the Grey Warden has dreams about the Arch Demon, Shepard has visions and dreams about the Reaper Boss (the vent kid, the kid in the dreams).

And thus when Shepard is struck down on the battlefield by the Reaper bosses minion it is only because of the taint that he survives. Like the Grey Warden, he goes up into the tower (The Citadel) to meet the Arch Demon err.... the Architect... err.... the Reaper boss and instead of fighting him like in Dragon Age Origins, he ha conversation because a fight would be too videogamey, and besides he's in no shape to fight.

The final three outcomes are typical: Loghain, Sacrifice, or Morrigan err... Control (TIM), Synthesis, Destroy (with survival).

This is a typical Bioware plot and ending stripped down to the bones. Bioware needs to come up with something different.

[Farangbaa]

I think it is nonsense.

 

I think this "problem" is little more than a hypothetical "What if" and not the looming threat the Catalyst makes it out to be

 

I think "organic energy" is a buzzowrd for "space magic"

 

I think Synthesis (and the other choices) are endings for a different game than Mass Effect

 

I think  certain somebodies' psuedointellectual musings got in the way of actually finshing the game

 

What do you think of that?

 

I said thinking about, not thinking. I'm speaking about the process of thinking, you're speaking of having an opinion.

 

I suppose I'm the only person that doesn't mind my Shepard becoming 'the Shepard'. Though I like 'the Commander' better.

 

For all intents and purposes, he's revered as a physical god in the galaxy. 

 

No, you're not.

[Ieldra]

If only there had been an opportunity in Mass Effect 2 to to build a transhuman theme like the protagonist dying and being revived as a cyborg. That could have been pretty interesting.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't have just been used as a cheap plot device and for a Princess Bride reference.

The irony is that this is what *did* happen. Rememeber Miranda's line in the Lazarus logs about Shepard being reconstructed with "biosynthetic fusion"? Shepard's superhuman strength as evidenced in Zaeed's LM and the aftermath of the Human Reaper fight? All the cybernetic upgrades? Shepard *is* a cyborg, even ME3's ending tacitly acknowledges that. It's just that the rest of the story makes a 180-degree backflip about it, culminating in that EDI/Shepard exchange where someone made every effort to disconnect Shepard from any notion of transhumanism. Basically, that theme which was apparent in ME2 was dropped in favor of making Shepard a messianic figure and the story about sacrifice.

[Ieldra]

Now, let us ignore all the moralities and philosophies for a moment and consider synthesis, can we really say it is an ending with a dark overtone? or with a tone that has shifted from the previous "happy" mass effect games? Where is this "loss" in synthesis? Also, in synthesis, it seems that EVERYBODY wins, not "no winning"

It is not, of course. The tone shift, that's the move away from the "follow your heart and everything will be ok" vibe of the previous games (and a large part of ME3 as well). Making the ME3 final choice requires detachment, or you won't be able to make it, and it doesn't matter how Paragon you've been in the past, there will be undesirable aspects of almost every outcome, even if it's only for you personally.

 

That part I don't mind. What I do mind, however, is the overstressing of the sacrifice theme that comes along with it, that feeling that Shepard is exorably marching towards their doom, and the space magic as evidenced by "organic energy". As I see it, Bioware sacrificed the integrity of a reasonably grounded SF story for the nebulous realm of mysticism and religion where sacrifice has an intrinsic meaning rather than being the very much undesirable side effect of a decision that must be made. Mordin's death, and Victus', those were believable heroic sacrifices because their deaths were convincingly presented as unavoidable natural outcomes of their decisions. As opposed to that, Shepard's and Legion's were not, because there the theme was deliberately and wilfully invoked and remained ungrounded in the story or the lore.

[jtav]

Here's what I mean by both tone shift and a certain class of player.

Most video games are power fantasies to one degree or another, but there's a smugness to ME's. Being good is never hard. If a character is unpleasant to the player, they will either come around and grovel, be thoroughly humiliated and irrelevant, or be revealed as a villain, The player can go through the game without ever sacrificing anything that matters. So you start seeing people try to justify killing Petrovsky as Paragon because they thought he deserved it. Or who got upset they got a Renegade point. Or yell about the numerous narrative faults of ME3 and treat Citadel as the best thing ever because it makes them feel good.

[Ryriena]

It is not, of course. The tone shift, that's the move away from the "follow your heart and everything will be ok" vibe of the previous games (and a large part of ME3 as well). Making the ME3 final choice requires detachment, or you won't be able to make it, and it doesn't matter how Paragon you've been in the past, there will be undesirable aspects of almost every outcome, even if it's only for you personally.

That part I don't mind. What I do mind, however, is the overstressing of the sacrifice theme that comes along with it, that feeling that Shepard is exorably marching towards their doom, and the space magic as evidenced by "organic energy". As I see it, Bioware sacrificed the integrity of a reasonably grounded SF story for the nebulous realm of mysticism and religion where sacrifice has an intrinsic meaning rather than being the very much undesirable side effect of a decision that must be made. Mordin's death, and Victus', those were believable heroic sacrifices because their deaths were convincingly presented as unavoidable natural outcomes of their decisions. As opposed to that, Shepard's and Legion's were not, because there the theme was deliberately and wilfully invoked and remained ungrounded in the story or the lore.

Plus, it felt really out of character for my Shepard to upload the reaper code at the base into legion. I was like, what the **** is my Shepard doing? She's just letting him upload reaper code into the Geth after she found it unethical in the second game to rewrite the heretics? What? WHY? It makes no sense that the Geth want to be more human when they are shown to be happy with themselves.

I also agree the tone and shift feels entirely different than in ME1 &2. I have a problem with many characterizations of the characters within ME3 for example Jacob.

[Ieldra]

Plus, it felt really out of character for my Shepard to upload the reaper code at the base into legion. I was like, what the **** is my Shepard doing? She's just letting him upload reaper code into the Geth after she found it unethical in the second game to rewrite the heretics? What? WHY? It makes no sense that the Geth want be more human when they are shown to be happy with themselves.

Not quite, I think. It was indicated that the code would make the geth more powerful. To want that makes sense. Also, it's one thing to rewrite the unwilling, but quite another to let willing people rewrite themselves. I don't see any ethical problem here. What makes no sense is the implicit assertion that human-style indviduality is superior to a networked intelligence, as well as Legion's assertion that "personality dissemination is necessary". Even more problematic: why would the geth ever want the human-style empathy they're given in the Synthesis? Why would they not feel alive without it? The changes to organics don't change the nature of their mind's workings, that's why I can justify the Synthesis. For synthetics, this is much more problematic. The story needed to be written so that they would want it, and so it was, but it isn't convincing.   

[Ryriena]

Not quite, I think. It was indicated that the code would make the geth more powerful. To want that makes sense. Also, it's one thing to rewrite the unwilling, but quite another to let willing people rewrite themselves. I don't see any ethical problem here. What makes no sense is the implicit assertion that human-style indviduality is superior to a networked intelligence, as well as Legion's assertion that "personality dissemination is necessary". Even more problematic: why would the geth ever want the human-style empathy they're given in the Synthesis? Why would they not feel alive without it? The changes to organics don't change the nature of their mind's workings, that's why I can justify the Synthesis. For synthetics, this is much more problematic. The story needed to be written so that they would want it, and so it was, but it isn't convincing.

I tend to agree the writers screwed up in convincing us that the Geth wanted this in the first place. It felt like the whole thing was a huge reaper plot in retrospect to hack the Geth.

[jtav]

Honestly, the best thing to do is probably to just kill the geth at Rannoch. Saves a lot of ideological headaches.

[Ryriena]

I got so upset when my Shepard killed Legion in the pick Qurians part. I couldn't believe my Shepard would kill an ally like that in retrospect. Even the renegade interrupt felt way to extreme for my liking with Legion looking up at you...

[Obadiah]

Yikes! Did people really see a "follow your heart and everything will be ok" vibe in the previous games? I must think about these conversation decisions too much.

[Ryriena]

Yikes! Did people really see a "follow your heart and everything will be ok" vibe in the previous games? I must think about these conversation decisions too much.

Yeah I saw that if we choose correctly and followed what we thought was right then everything would be alright type feel.

[jtav]

I definitely got a "Do you want to feel good? Check yes or no" vibe from the major decisions.

[Ieldra]

Yikes! Did people really see a "follow your heart and everything will be ok" vibe in the previous games? I must think about these conversation decisions too much.

I think about the decisions as well. Maybe too much, as well. The thing is, the suspicion that I just needed to stop thinking and do what feels good, and that would result in the best outcome was always there, ever since the first big decision in ME1. I didn't want it to be so, but things *always* turned out that way. Always. Until the ending of ME3. That ME3's ending subverted this is one of its greatest merits. I do, however, acknowledge that this can come across as an emotional hammer out of the blue for players who liked that pattern.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@Massively...and no, spamming the top left corner dialogue is NOT a right, but a privilege, you had to work hard, do many mindless quests, speak to and not kill people you dislike, being patient when the situation is deteriorating and be thoughtful of future consequences. Yes, BW is biased towards paragons but that doesn't mean they get a jail-free card for every decision they make

 

That's exactly what it is: jtav defined it very well. It is exactly a get out of jail free card. 'Do what's morally right and you'll always succeed'. It's not based off of any sort of pragmatism or practical setting. It's basically saying that if you're the shiny golden hero, you'll always succeed. Like Ieldra, that's one thing I liked about the ending; it challenged them and put them in a position that couldn't be solved just by being a 'good' guy. 

[jtav]

Make no mistake: I like being the principled hero. But the cost-free nature of it is, well, ridiculous. And the way it works in practice is the player gets their ego stroked a lot, often in a way that feels juvenile.

[Iakus]

The irony is that this is what *did* happen. Rememeber Miranda's line in the Lazarus logs about Shepard being reconstructed with "biosynthetic fusion"? Shepard's superhuman strength as evidenced in Zaeed's LM and the aftermath of the Human Reaper fight? All the cybernetic upgrades? Shepard *is* a cyborg, even ME3's ending tacitly acknowledges that. It's just that the rest of the story makes a 180-degree backflip about it, culminating in that EDI/Shepard exchange where someone made every effort to disconnect Shepard from any notion of transhumanism. Basically, that theme which was apparent in ME2 was dropped in favor of making Shepard a messianic figure and the story about sacrifice.

 

 

I'd say ME2 had the opportunity to go with a transhumanism theme, but declined to do so.  In fact, the Lazarus Project was specifically meant to bring Shepard back exactly as before.  Being a cyborg was considered no more transhumanist as having sophisticated prostheses.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Make no mistake: I like being the principled hero. But the cost-free nature of it is, well, ridiculous. And the way it works in practice is the player gets their ego stroked a lot, often in a way that feels juvenile.

 

You like playing as the Fettered. Even the fettered know when their principles can get in the way of results, but they still go for them. I see where you're coming from there. But yeah, that's exactly how being a paragon in ME is. Be a paragon, and you will very rarely ever have to deal with a scenario that doesn't work out for the best just because you're a good guy. And even then, until the ending, those scenario's are incredibly minor and inconsequential; the biggest one I can think of is telling Kelly to help refugees on the Citadel rather than changing her identity. You find out later that Cerberus was hunting her and that they found her and killed her, and you get dinged 10 assets. And until the ending itself, you're never put into a situation that might force you to act in a way where your conscious is challenged significantly.

 

What's worse is how the game also says that anyone who doesn't follow this logic is either indoctrinated or is a hopelessly 'evil' and corrupt zealot who is hilariously incompetent and hated. That's what gets on me since I'm not the hero by anything other than the name: I'm the Unfettered machiavellian pseudo-sociopath who wants to take power over the galaxy post-war and turn it into an autocratic and authoritarian system led by a strong human element that will work endlessly to bring about their own version of synthesis.

 

All in all, It's a highly idealistic system in the game, since it almost reflexively portrays the Fettered as the Ubermensch.