How sophisticated did it claim itself to be?
SHepard: "You said you're the Catalyst, but what are you?"
Catalyst " A construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem. I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics"
Shepard: "So you're just an AI?"
Catalyst: "In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers"
...and? That's clearly a declaration of some sophistication, but how sophisticated is it really claiming itself to be? Its an AI, old, big, and has an emotional reaction to being called "just".
Also, do you think EDI's ability to modify her core programming is enough to make her more sophisticated than being the collective intelligence of the Reapers?
Also, assuming its inability to change its core programming, why does that mean it is unable to work on the problem it was designed to solve?
I guess it depends on how intelligent the Reapers are (assuming the Catalyst is actually a collective intelligence and it isn't using another bad metaphor). This was probably unintentional on the behalf of the writers, but I never got the impression that the smaller Reapers, at least, were particularly intelligent.
"In as much as you are just an animal."
Yeah, I get that you're superior minded. You've had a long time to consider yourself that.
"I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers""
So? A lot of experience. A lot of tests. Few lessons learned, from what I see.
...and? That's clearly a declaration of some sophistication, but how sophisticated is it really claiming itself to be? Its an AI, old, big, and has an emotional reaction to being called "just".
It's declaring itself to me as much above AIs as Shepard is above the fish in his/her aquarium, so...
Also, do you think EDI's ability to modify her core programming is enough to make her more sophisticated than being the collective intelligence of the Reapers?
Yes
Also, assuming its inability to change its core programming, why does that mean it is unable to work on the problem it was designed to solve?
It means the Catalyst is, at the very least, limited in how willing it is to accept new data. Or to accept that it's fundamental assumptions are erroneous.
That's just it, EDI can in fact alter herself and changes her parameters.
No, she can't physically alter her hardware. Neither can the Catalyst. And it might be aware of that. EDI doesn't seem to be aware that there are possible limitations imposed on her due to hardware.
Iakus, stop there. That's a lot of supposition that has no basis or grounding in reality.
I would be the Catalyst, you would be Shepard. Liara's capsules would be your winning hand. Letting Shepard die with Anderson, or even having Shepard Refuse, would amount to "letting it ride." Bringing Shepard to the decision chamber *might* be a simple fold, but there's a definite possibility that it's a bluff attempt.
This doesn't work. If the Reapers really feel threatened by Liara's capsules they can easily work around this by, for instance, not letting anyone developing past 20th-century tech.
I think that would be impossible to monitor though given how big the galaxy is.
If we grant that assumption the whole ME plot falls apart.
Edit: I'm OK with that.
Well with space travel organics find the Relays and end up at the Citadel, which means whoever is on Vanguard duty only has to check there to get an update.
This doesn't work. If the Reapers really feel threatened by Liara's capsules they can easily work around this by, for instance, not letting anyone developing past 20th-century tech.
Okay, but using that line of thinking, why would the Catalyst allow civilizations to advance at all? Why not harvest pre-spaceflight species from the get-go and make things easy for itself? Furthermore, if it could just shorten the cycles at will, why would it bother building the Citadel and relay network to "expedite" the process?
Implied answer: the Catalyst was restricted from harvesting species before they reached a certain technological threshold. (Maybe harvesting species before they were able to create life-threatening AI was a violation of its core programming.)
Example: had the Leviathans added some solid "don't impose on organic free will" conditions, the Catalyst couldn't implement something like indoctrination. (But of course, the Leviathans wouldn't include that type of block, because they, themselves, imposed on organic free will all the time. They didn't see a problem with it, until it was used against them.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The big problem, and what Shepard fights for (Paragon - for everyone else, Renegade - for himself).
Iakus, stop there. That's a lot of supposition that has no basis or grounding in reality.
Seems to be a reasonable extrapolation to me.
EDI is exposed to information contrary to her original assumptions, and alters her programming to reflect that.
The Catalyst keeps on reaping even after it knows that this "solution" won't work.
@Iakus
Well, I can't say that I agree with your understanding of the Catalyst's statement at all. I took its animal declaration to mean that, as Shepard is an animal, that term does not properly describe who or what Shepard is. In the same way Catalyst is an AI, that term does not adequately describe itself. Then it went on to describe itself. Sophisticated - certainly. I can see that if you hold a somewhat different view of animals you might have a different understanding.
The context seemed to reflect degree of sapience. The Catalyst seemed to be declaring itself a far more advanced intelligent than the AIs Shepard is used to dealing with. In the same way, Shepard is a more advanced primate than, say a pyjak
I have to disagree with your assertion that the ability to change onself irrespective of all other abilities is the bar for more or less sophistication. Though we do not know if it can change its core programming, even if it were the case that it could not, it is demonstrably more sophisticated than EDI. After all, its been in existence for a billion years, built by a more advanced creator, itself built the Relay network (which the current cycle still doesn't understand), has overthrown its masters and entire civilizations, has marshalled immense processing power in the form of the Reapers as part of its intelligence, and has no doubt defeated many AI like EDI in other cycles.
And yet it acts on flawed assumptions, argues from authority rather than facts, and continues the cycle so far as to attack the Crucible, even as it admits that it won't work.
The ability to change and adapt is a hallmark of intelligent life, isn't it?
The problem with arguing with facts is that these "facts" are just things it will tell us, but would have no possible way of showing us. It wouldn't do anyone any good for it to drone on about some race we never met being wiped out by some machines we never heard of. I'd still shrug and destroy them anyhow, and I'm guessing you would as well. There's no way for it to present evidence, because whatever evidence there would have been was wiped out eons ago, and encased in death rays.
Its authority doesn't really matter either, because it's ultimately up to Shepard whether or not the Catalyst even gets to continue its existence for one more cycle.
And yet it acts on flawed assumptions, argues from authority rather than facts, and continues the cycle so far as to attack the Crucible, even as it admits that it won't work.
The ability to change and adapt is a hallmark of intelligent life, isn't it?
You do remember who created it right? The colossal morons that insist that it, despite destroying their empire and trying to hunt them to extinction, still serves is purpose. Because they can't make mistakes, ever. See where I'm going with this?
Is it highly intelligent? Sure. Is it completely deluded because of what it learned from its creators? Absolutely!
Example: had the Leviathans added some solid "don't impose on organic free will" conditions, the Catalyst couldn't implement something like indoctrination. (But of course, the Leviathans wouldn't include that type of block, because they, themselves, imposed on organic free will all the time. They didn't see a problem with it, until it was used against them.)
The Leviathan's were also really terrible at programming.
What do the calamari know anyway? They basically watched through brainwashed eyes and the palantir, like squid wizards in what I hope to be their watery tomb. Who knows what cockamamie stories their ancestors told them over the years. Perhaps their ancestors were just lazy asses that created Deep Thought to sit and ponder on their slaves' demise so they could go back to doing lordly space squid things, like pondering what it must be like to wear pants.
What do the calamari know anyway?
That, I suspect, is the point. There is a layer of irony to all of this. They were responsible for setting the problem in motion but their creation is responsible for its continuation from the other side of the equation. It's easy to see how it went wrong from their attitude. It's easy to see why the Morning War happened. The point, I suspect, is we need to accept each other as equals to move forward. Something the Catalyst didn't learn until Shepard. At the end it realized it needed organics help to fulfill its purpose. Is that enough to earn it a reprieve for all that it's done? That's the ultimate question for me.
Retour en haut