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[teh DRUMPf!!]

Have you actually tried to understand, though?

 

Heh, I've got a quote in my sig for the likes of that fella (hint: not the boldfaced line).

[Farangbaa]

Currently we use the definition of transhuman to be anyone transitional to posthuman. So yeah, we even use examples of artificial hearts and limbs as transhuman.

 

But not all agree with that.

 

If one gets a single computer chip implant, does that mean they're going to head towards being posthuman? No, it doesn't. In fact, they can live another few decades, and die. No posthuman happening.

 

So while we could consider ourselves to be in or heading towards a transhuman society, it may be more subjective whether an individual is transhuman.

 

The key indicator, instead of limbs and organs, would specifically be the brain. Once the brain has become synthetic, the identity must change along with it. You're no longer *allowed* to think of yourself as only human, but you *must* be on the path to posthuman identity.

 

In that sense, Shepard is always human until the end of ME3.

He can then make the decision to die(?) and may be rebirthed as a human (or close to it) in Destroy. *takes breath*

Or he can make the decision to die and be ascended as a transhuman (or close to it) in Control.

Or he can make the decision to die and transcend mortality as a posthuman essence (or close to it) in Synthesis.

 

 

From our modern perspective pretty much anyone with extensive cybernetics would be transhuman, but I'm not so sure if that'd be the case a century from now. People with a couple implants certainly are not popularly considered to be transhuman, and that's because they have no intention to move into a posthuman state. They want to stay human. There's no 'trans' happening.

 

A bit controversial (so I apologize in advance), but transgender is defined in a similar way. If you're just putting on the clothing and looks and feel of another gender, you're NOT transgender. You may even just be a 'drag queen'. If you're doing so in the intent of becoming the other gender, then you're transgender. Transsexual is a version of this which includes the sexual organs. If you're transgender or transsexual, it doesn't specifically matter what clothing you're wearing, what hormones you are taking, what behavior you are picking up, what you're doing to your genitals, etc. What matters is where you're *going*. (Male to Female, Female to Male, Male/Female to Other)

 

As long as Shepard intends on being human, 'organic/human energy' is what he'll remain as. And he did - up until the Crucible.

 

Don't take this as me defending the writing btw. It's just my opinion that I've gained since before ME3 was even released.

 

But Shepard has more than an artificial heart or a computer chip. His abilities have been greatly enhanced by all the implants. That's transhumanism: augmenting or adding abilities which transcend normal human possibilities.

 

You just use a 'harder' definition of transhumanism, one that's in line with EDI's opinion (that the brain needs to be replaced by synthetic parts). One that makes me cringe anytime I hear it.

[Farangbaa]

I can't fathom anyone choosing the peace borg in good faith.

 

You can't fathom a lot of things. Which all begins with not willing to understand any other opinion than your own, and not even trying to understand.

 

'Anyone who doesn't hate the ME3 endings doesn't love Mass Effect'

 

That's just flat out saying other people's opinions don't matter and yours is the only true Mass Effect gospel, and makes it nigh near impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

You can't fathom a lot of things. Which all begins with not willing to understand any other opinion than your own, and not even trying to understand.
 
'Anyone who doesn't hate the ME3 endings doesn't love Mass Effect'
 
That's just flat out saying other people's opinions don't matter and yours is the only true Mass Effect gospel, and makes it nigh near impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

Yes, alter my words, why don't you. I did say something similar, but most definitely not that. And details matter, unless I'm very much mistaken.

[Farangbaa]

Yes, alter my words, why don't you. I did say something similar, but most definitely not that. And details matter, unless I'm very much mistaken.

 

Yeah, you used more words to say 'my opinion is better than yours. NANANANANA I can't heaaaaaaaaaaaaar you'

[78stonewobble]

Just about everyone has moved on with their lives and, evidenced by the comments sections of articles and scattered discussions here, are geared up for the next Mass Effect.  A joke here and there about the ending, of course, but plenty of enthusiasm. 

 

Well I'm hoping for and looking forward to the next game set in the mass effect universe. Other games and offcourse real life stuff as well going on. 

 

None of that means that I've changed my oppinion on the ending(s). I'm still hoping stories will make more sense in the future, even if allowing for some spacemagic for fun and be... well emotionally engaging more than meh. 

 

Not hating me3 here. I severely disliked the ending(s), but I'm still highly recommending the game series to others. I'm just trying to get what I think would make for better games in the future, by pointing out things that doesn't fly with me. 

 

Ie. synthesis is supposed to prevent the emergence of nigh godly AI and it's following annihilation of everything organic (and less powerfull artificial and synthetic life I suppose).  

 

It doesn't guarantee that.

 

Even if it, via brain washing, prevents the new synthetic life from creating, or want to create such a purely artificial AI, synthesis ending would still need to greenify every planet, moon, asteroid, comet, fleck of space dust... Where life might evolve/exist, to prevent such a thing happening. A logistically and practically impossible task, if not in our galaxy, then in the rest of the universe too. 

 

If we don't greenify the universe entirely... We risk the godly AI appearing in the next galaxy and then were screwed. Green, blue, red enders and with and without reapers. God AI beats reapers offcourse and green ending just stagnates around reaper level and rebuilds the things that couldn't even beat them. 

 

And if you, like me, don't really believe in the practical and physically possibility of a technological singularity, the point of it all falls to the ground. 

 

Which is why the following 2 motivations for the reapers and catalysts are better in all respects:

They find intelligent organic life as tasty as we do bacon. 

They are malfunctioning and just crazy.

[Farangbaa]

Stop with bacon analogy, it's ridiculous. Everybody knows the organics are harvested to create new Reapers or are indoctrinated to point of becoming mindless and then repurposed as slaves (the Collectors)

[78stonewobble]

Stop with bacon analogy, it's ridiculous. Everybody knows the organics are harvested to create new Reapers or are indoctrinated to point of becoming mindless and then repurposed as slaves (the Collectors)

 

It's far less ridiculous than trying to prevent organics to invent god ai, by killing some organics a few hundred or tens of thousand of places (when one galaxy has billions if not trillions of places that organics could do such a thing) in one galaxy out of a 100.000.000.000+ galaxies. 

 

It's a battle of futility. 

 

Heck, even if the reapers reaped a 100 billion places in a 100 billion galaxies, it's stupid. The amount of raw materials and energy wasted (which could have been used in just sustaining both organic and artificial lives) on such an effort, makes it the most destroying thing ever, except for something that would destroy the universe... and in that case it doesn't really matter. 

 

It would be like spending the ressources that would sustain the majority of humans (thus killing them off) on wiping out chimpanzees before they wipe out the majority of humans (thus killing them off). Yeah, thats great thinking. 

[Kurt M.]

Completed my last ME3 playthought (NO MORE!! NO MORE!! ), and chose Synthesis again. It's just the best choice.

 

I really, really hate the Catalyst, and it's undoubtely crazy, but I wasn't going to risk inmortality, living the life you want without fear of diseases or lesions, and potentially the key for intergalactic travel just because I didn't get along with an AI

[SwobyJ]

But Shepard has more than an artificial heart or a computer chip. His abilities have been greatly enhanced by all the implants. That's transhumanism: augmenting or adding abilities which transcend normal human possibilities.

 

You just use a 'harder' definition of transhumanism, one that's in line with EDI's opinion (that the brain needs to be replaced by synthetic parts). One that makes me cringe anytime I hear it.

 

It's just a more literal view of it. I don't see why that should make you cringe. It even makes sense to me that EDI would go for that instead, and that Shepard would accept it because he wants to regard himself as human.

 

In fact, people only call current human society 'transhuman' because it appears to be on its way, without stopping, towards the posthuman. If anything shows itself to be the opposite (like a dark age), that may change. Transhuman itself has little to do with transcending normal human properties by itself. It has to be on the way to something else. Trans.

 

Take away the goal or destination of transcending the human species, and you actually just have a human with some machines attached to it. An implant to make you stronger does not automatically make you a transhuman - it only opens you up to that prospect significantly more than you would be otherwise. It's at that important point that sci fi lit investigates what characters do with this prospect. Do they struggle to maintain the human? Do they go along with their transhuman track? Or do they vault towards the inevitable posthuman? Or do they cut the whole process short via suicide?

 

There is the difference here between function and identity. And that's where the debate lies. EDI just took the data that was available to her (in a galaxy full of debates about the subject, which she brings up), and gave the clearest answer - that Shepard would not be regarded as a transhuman until his own brain incorporates the synthetic.

[ImaginaryMatter]

But Shepard has more than an artificial heart or a computer chip. His abilities have been greatly enhanced by all the implants. That's transhumanism: augmenting or adding abilities which transcend normal human possibilities.

 

You just use a 'harder' definition of transhumanism, one that's in line with EDI's opinion (that the brain needs to be replaced by synthetic parts). One that makes me cringe anytime I hear it.

 

I don't think the Lazarus project really added anything to Shepard. What little information there was mostly covered his body's recovery and the extent of it's damage. And while there are cybernetic upgrades he can get from the Research terminal in ME2, the exact same kind of buffs can be found in the Fitness tree in ME3 -- which are gained by working out (although game play doesn't translate well into story). Other wise Shepard doesn't noticeably increased strength, reaction times, intelligence, etc. from his ME1, pre-Lazarus state. Most of the changes are purely cosmetic.

[Obadiah]

Doesn't the doctor that examines Shepard in ME3 indicate that Shep has extensive implants? Also, these do not look like minor implants:

[SwobyJ]

Everything Shepard does. and the extent he can do it, fits within human parameters - even if barely sometimes, like the most fit humans doing their most fit activities all together. Even the impact of things like the Cypher fit within what would be organic (instead of our Earth scale 'human') abilities. The Overlord stuff, while being the closest to transhuman, still amounts to a virtual overlay that any human can put a visor (or whatever) on to view.

 

ME2-ME3 progressively puts Shepard, at times (imo all optional levels or DLC), into situations which heavily strain the conception of 'human', but they always relent JUST enough that Shepard is allowed to think of himself as still one. Just barely. And as long as he stays the way he is, and considers himself human and in no way onto the way of robotics or posthuman etc, he'll be one.

 

The main storyline definitely keeps away from such matters, except for mentions of Shepard being 'rebuilt' instead of 'healed'.

 

But yes, by the end of ME3 (even when you take away the Crucible), Shepard can experience enough that his identity as human is on a VERY thin line. Or not. If Shep is very Renegade and gets the surgery to hide the scars, he pretty much tells any transhuman potential of himself to GTFO.

[SwobyJ]

Doesn't the doctor that examines Shepard in ME3 indicate that Shep has extensive implants? Also, these do not look like minor implants:

 

They're not minor, but the effect of them is mostly cosmetic. He was rebuilt, with methods to make him as organic as medically possible.

 

When someone gets a metal plate in their head, they don't stop being human. They may, however, become more opened up to having more artificial components in them.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Doesn't the doctor that examines Shepard in ME3 indicate that Shep has extensive implants? Also, these do not look like minor implants:

 

Sorry, I meant adding things that allowed Shepard to exceed his original capabilities.

 

It seems like all the implants do was replace the hamburger parts with metal parts that had the exact same capabilities, outputs, and what-have-you.

[SwobyJ]

We have bits that show that ME2-ME3 Shepard is at least TransShepard(ME1). He can do things that we can't imagine ME1 would be capable of doing.

 

It's just that ME2 Shepard still does stuff that any human might do at a particular time if they were the right person with the right tools (hit like a krogan, view a virtual overlay..which is the furthest one like I was saying, strong against sedative, easy access to adrenaline rush, etc).

 

Then ME3 takes things to more ridiculous levels, having Shepard capable of doing stuff that strains the capabilities of the Citadel species organics overall.

 

By our relatively(?) primitive notions IRL present day, he's transhuman. I just don't think he'd be considered such in a MEU that has widespread gene therapy, robotics, and virtual intelligence. They'd probably refine the term to its more literal form, instead of use it as more of a societal catch all.

[Obadiah]

Well, Shepard can use several weapons in ME2 now only because he is an augmented human (thinking of that sniper rifle on the Collector Ship mission, I think maybe to Krogan shotgun too). Also, he can dead-aim with a sniper rifle from the get-go (was actually going to write a fan-fic on how abnormal that was after waking up in a hospital). Not exactly normal...

But, since it doesn't seem to be discussed as Trans-Human in the game, its probably not considered as such in MEU.

[SwobyJ]

Well, Shepard can use several weapons in ME2 now only because he is an augmented human (thinking of that sniper rifle on the Collector Ship mission, I think maybe to Krogan shotgun too). Also, he can dead-aim with a sniper rifle from the get-go. Not exactly normal...

 

There are probably humans born with the right build and physical fortitude that they can use those weapons - just not all at once and not with such ease as Shepard. These weapons are right on the edge of believability for a human to use. Very few can, and now Shepard can.

 

For the Widow, no *ordinary* human can use it without shattering his arm. I find that to be pretty precise wording to just indicate that Shepard isn't an ordinary human. That does not make one transhuman. Even gene therapy to up the standard for stronger bones, for example, does not make one automatically transhuman - they are medical treatments that move forward the cause of transhumanism. One could also have metal implants/attachments to their arms to use these guns, and they'd still be, well, human.

 

Basically, there's no super special virtual gun that only Shepard can use with his mind. Once we get into stuff like that, it is undeniably in transhuman territory. That would transcend the physical realm of the human, and get Shepard into something else. For the case of the Geth Consensus, the only thing that keeps it from proving that Shepard is absolutely transhuman, is the fact that it is a special interface with the consensus that represents itself in ways that a human would need to understand it as. He's a guest in the virtual, but it must conform to him if he can do anything in it. But at this point, the line between human and transhuman are incredibly blurred - hence it being an optional mission that players could skip and be on their merry way without knowing any of it.

 

~~~

 

So I guess I'll go to my last post, that ME2-ME3 Shepard may be something like TransShepard (and thus only transhuman if you consider him such, in RP), but not any strict transhuman. It seems to be intentionally up for debate throughout the series, with optional content and items only illustrating the crazy lack of boundaries Shepard has in terms of his humanism/humanity.

[KaiserShep]

I'm pretty sure there's some codex mumbojumbo that accounts for Shepard's ability to use a Widow in ME3. After all, every member of the team that has the ability to wield sniper rifles can use this weapon, just as anyone shotgun-friendly can use a Claymore.

[SwobyJ]

I'm pretty sure there's some codex mumbojumbo that accounts for Shepard's ability to use a Widow in ME3. After all, every member of the team that has the ability to wield sniper rifles can use this weapon, just as anyone shotgun-friendly can use a Claymore.

 

Incorrect. They are limited to specific squadmates. Grunt and Legion.

 

And then the ME3 versions are more adaptable models.

[Farangbaa]

Sorry, I meant adding things that allowed Shepard to exceed his original capabilities.

 

It seems like all the implants do was replace the hamburger parts with metal parts that had the exact same capabilities, outputs, and what-have-you.

 

Ehm, no:

 

• Heavy Bone Weave (Skeletal Lattice)

Cost: 25,000 Palladium

Shepard takes -50% Damage to health from melee attacks. By reinforcing the skeleton with a synthetic weave, bones can be made almost unbreakable. In the event of bone trauma, medi-gel conduits allow for bone regenerations in a matter of days.  

• Heavy Muscle Weave (Microfiber Weave)

Cost: 15,000 Palladium

Shepard does +25% Melee damage. Perforating the muscles with micro-fibers increases overall strength and decreases the potential for muscle damage from exertion.  

• Heavy Skin Weave 1 - 7 (Lattice Shunting)

Cost: 2,500/5,000/7,500/10,000/12,500 Palladium or 90,000 Credits (75,000 with Discount)

Shepard gains +10% Health per upgrade   Strong synthetic fibers can be woven through the skin, dramatically reducing damage taken from most attacks. These fibers also act as a medi-gel conduit, improving healing.    

 

If that's within normal human parameters, we're all subhuman.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Ehm, no:

 

• Heavy Bone Weave (Skeletal Lattice)

Cost: 25,000 Palladium

Shepard takes -50% Damage to health from melee attacks. By reinforcing the skeleton with a synthetic weave, bones can be made almost unbreakable. In the event of bone trauma, medi-gel conduits allow for bone regenerations in a matter of days.  

• Heavy Muscle Weave (Microfiber Weave)

Cost: 15,000 Palladium

Shepard does +25% Melee damage. Perforating the muscles with micro-fibers increases overall strength and decreases the potential for muscle damage from exertion.  

• Heavy Skin Weave 1 - 7 (Lattice Shunting)

Cost: 2,500/5,000/7,500/10,000/12,500 Palladium or 90,000 Credits (75,000 with Discount)

Shepard gains +10% Health per upgrade Strong synthetic fibers can be woven through the skin, dramatically reducing damage taken from most attacks. These fibers also act as a medi-gel conduit, improving healing.    

 

 

As I said earlier, in ME3 Shepard gains the exact same sort of benefits from working out. And that gameplay doesn't translate well into story.

[SwobyJ]

That's all post-Lazarus upgrades.

 

Shepard is rebuilt into a form that can better accommodate these transhuman upgrades than other humans, but he doesn't necessarily have to accept them.

 

The games clearly coax us into more and more tech involvement, but the default story file of ME3 can be pretty clearly understood as a story where you get pretty much zero upgrades from the ME2 researching (well aside from Mordin learning about Collector swarms).

 

ImaginaryMatter is correct about, say, a Soldier Shepard already can go ahead with these benefits 'built in'. Soldier being the most 'canon' class too (/cuedebate).

[Farangbaa]

As I said earlier, in ME3 Shepard gains the exact same sort of benefits from working out. And that gameplay doesn't translate well into story.

 

Lol and then people are bothered with the endings, yet eat this crap like it's cake.

 

So if I just work out hard enough, I get a nigh indestructible skeleton?

[SwobyJ]

Lol and then people are bothered with the endings, yet eat this crap like it's cake.

 

So if I just work out hard enough, I get a nigh indestructible skeleton?

 

It isn't saying that its indestructible. It's saying that bone trauma is more easily healed via medigel instead of conventional methods. So breaks happen much less. That's not indestructable. That's just making sure that there's really good bones.

 

To clarify, story-wise, one can have the equal enough benefits from the mix of:

1)Quick medigel treatment

2)Strong armor

3)Gene therapy (more likely tuned for a Soldier class, but that's guessing)

 

AKA Fitness and other mechanics.

 

But the synthetic upgrades help in:

A)Providing those benefits for one not as attuned towards that (non Soldiers)

B)Adding another layer of benefits to the Soldier

 

They're certainly transhuman upgrades. It just isn't good to assume that Shepard will take these upgrades. He becomes as transhuman as you make him, until right on the edge of what could ever be considered human (his brain).