9087 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurt M.]

No, I'm saying that Jack's altered abilities spike much higher than what a human would ever normally be capable of. 

 

And yes, I do believe that Miranda is a truly gifted biotic. The game tells me, and she tells me. You seem to be antagonizing her. Why?

 

That's a lie. The game doesn't tell you. There isn't a single character who says that Miranda is an awesome biotic. She only says that about herself, whereas everybody is basically scared to death of Jack, for example.

 

Not that I have anything against Miranda, but basically you're never shown that she's anything else but a normal, average biotic.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

That's a lie. The game doesn't tell you. There isn't a single character who says that Miranda is an awesome biotic. She only says that about herself, whereas everybody is basically scared to death of Jack, for example.

 

Not that I have anything against Miranda, but basically you're never shown that she's anything else but a normal, average biotic.

 

Read Miranda's war asset entry:

 

Miranda Lawson is an ex-Cerberus operative. At Cerberus, her intelligence, dedication, and leadership impressed the Illusive Man, who assigned her to head the Lazarus Cell team that brought Commander Shepard back to life. Lawson brings extensive knowledge of the Illusive Man's dealings to the Alliance, directing them toward several clandestine Cerberus operations. A skilled shot and a gifted biotic, Lawson is as comfortable in a pitched battle as she is in a boardroom.

 

And via Miranda saying that, it is an explicit fact of the game: You're in denial if you're arguing the canonicity of an established statement in the game. You might not like it, but it's true. Miranda, to be frank, is an awesome biotic.

[Kurt M.]

Read Miranda's war asset entry:

 

Miranda Lawson is an ex-Cerberus operative. At Cerberus, her intelligence, dedication, and leadership impressed the Illusive Man, who assigned her to head the Lazarus Cell team that brought Commander Shepard back to life. Lawson brings extensive knowledge of the Illusive Man's dealings to the Alliance, directing them toward several clandestine Cerberus operations. A skilled shot and a gifted biotic, Lawson is as comfortable in a pitched battle as she is in a boardroom.

 

And via Miranda saying that, it is an explicit fact of the game: You're in denial if you're arguing the canonicity of an established statement in the game. You might not like it, but it's true. Miranda, to be frank, is an awesome biotic.

 

So, what? Am I to accept a description from....the narrator? And it still only says she's a "gifted" biotic. Half of the freakin' Grisson academy kids are also "gifted biotics".

 

You really, really hate to agree with someone

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

So, what? Am I to accept a description from....the narrator? And it still only says she's a "gifted" biotic. Half of the freakin' Grisson academy kids are also "gifted biotics".

 

You really, really hate to agree with someone

 

No, I just disagree when people are wrong. Yes, we are to accept the description from Miranda. There is never anything within the story that comes up to question the description of her abilities. So she wasn't as strong as Jack or Samara to hold the biotic barrier long enough to not lose a squadmate (she was still strong enough to maintain it to not fail the mission). Jack's the most powerful human biotic to ever live. Samara is an Asari Justicar who has trained for centuries. They are tough acts to follow. The canon states that Miranda is clearly a very powerful biotic by human standards. That is the canon. Need I keep repeating it?

[Kurt M.]

No, I just disagree when people are wrong. Yes, we are to accept the description from Miranda. There is never anything within the story that comes up to question the description of her abilities. So she wasn't as strong as Jack or Samara to hold the biotic barrier long enough to not lose a squadmate (she was still strong enough to maintain it to not fail the mission). Jack's the most powerful human biotic to ever live. Samara is an Asari Justicar who has trained for centuries. They are tough acts to follow. The canon states that Miranda is clearly a very powerful biotic by human standards. That is the canon. Need I keep repeating it?

 

Yes. Until you give me more proof of that "canon" apart from her own words and a ambivalent narrator's text. Let's differenciate "canon" from "narcissism", please.

[jtav]

Miranda is a gifted biotic. Unfortunately, she's the kid from the gifted and talented class being asked to do nuclear physics. She's better than the vast majority, but only average in the context of the squad. Say, Prangley level?

[Kurt M.]

Miranda is a gifted biotic. Unfortunately, she's the kid from the gifted and talented class being asked to do nuclear physics. She's better than the vast majority, but only average in the context of the squad. Say, Prangley level?

 

I can accept that. But not that she's "a freakin' amazing biotic" like that Miranda lover says.

 

I agree that she's -technically- a very good biotic, but the best I'd put her is in the "best of averages" category.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yes. Until you give me more proof of that "canon" apart from her own words and a ambivalent narrator's text. Let's differenciate "canon" from "narcissism", please.

 

I can't give you any more information that you won't summarily dismiss. That's denial on your part. Denial of canon. You're making an appeal to ridicule to call it narcissism. It's completely inaccurate.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Miranda is a gifted biotic. Unfortunately, she's the kid from the gifted and talented class being asked to do nuclear physics. She's better than the vast majority, but only average in the context of the squad. Say, Prangley level?

 

I'd rate her higher than that. She states that her biotics were designed to be excellent in terms of human standards. After Jack (and a biotic Shepard), I'd rate her as the best human biotic encountered in the ME Universe. That's not to say that there aren't others stronger, but she rates pretty high. 

[jtav]

In any case you've both wandered far afield from the topic, and I'd hate to see the thread locked.

[Kurt M.]

I can't give you any more information that you won't summarily dismiss. That's denial on your part. Denial of canon. You're making an appeal to ridicule to call it narcissism. It's completely inaccurate.

 

You can't give me more proof and yet you call it "denial from my part"? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAJJJAJAJJAJAJJAJAJJAJAJJJAJJAJAJAJJAJAJAJ

 

Oh, the irony. Sweet, sweet irony...

 

And btw, it's your job to make me unable to dismiss some argument. If you can't do it, maybe the fault isn't on my end. That's what discussions are about, you dikk-tator

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You can't give me more proof and yet you call it "denial from my part"? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAJJJAJAJJAJAJJAJAJJAJAJJJAJJAJAJAJJAJAJAJ

 

Oh, the irony. Sweet, sweet irony...

 

And btw, it's your job to make me unable to dismiss some argument. If you can't do it, maybe the fault isn't on my end. That's what discussions are about, you dikk-tator

 

Well, you've dismissed all the evidence that exists otherwise. If you've dismissed the explicit statements, there's not much more I can do except call it... denial.

 

There's not much I can do about denial for you. 

[Kurt M.]

Well, you've dismissed all the evidence that exists otherwise. If you've dismissed the explicit statements, there's not much more I can do except call it... denial.

 

There's not much I can do about denial for you. 

 

You mean your "explicit" statement from a narrator which anyways it only says she's merely "gifted"? And the only mention of how amazing her biotic powers are that, curiously, comes from herself? You've grabbed to both those things like to a lifeboat in the middle of the Pacific.

 

Before talking about "denial", I'd make myself a favor and look in a mirror

 

Oh, I may as well further destroy one of your two arguments already (the best one btw ). Again with the Grissom Academy kids:

 

By pooling their powers together, these gifted students from Grissom Academy can launch biotic artillery strikes that impact targets with the force of a bomb. The process is taxing, but devastates any enemy's front lines. While they've only had a few months of training, Grissom's students are eager to prove themselves in the war. (War Assets - Biotic Company).

 

You see? More gifted people, coming right directly from your beloved narrator! Guess your Miranda isn't by far the only one getting that treatment

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You mean your "explicit" statement from a narrator which anyways it only says she's merely "gifted"? And the only mention of how amazing her biotic powers are that, curiously, comes from herself? You've grabbed to both those things like to a lifeboat in the middle of the Pacific.

 

Before talking about "denial", I'd make myself a favor and look in a mirror

 

Oh, I may as well further destroy one of your two arguments already (the best one btw ). Again with the Grissom Academy kids:

 

By pooling their powers together, these gifted students from Grissom Academy can launch biotic artillery strikes that impact targets with the force of a bomb. The process is taxing, but devastates any enemy's front lines. While they've only had a few months of training, Grissom's students are eager to prove themselves in the war. (War Assets - Biotic Company).

 

You see? More gifted people, coming right directly from your beloved narrator! Guess your Miranda isn't by far the only one getting that treatment

 

That doesn't destroy my argument at all. In fact, it's only tangentially related to the power of Miranda's biotics. Which is being discussed. You've brought up a point that isn't relevant and doesn't discredit Miranda's biotics, only tells you how powerful the Grissom Academy biotics are (with their powers combined, though I won't drag that detail in). 

 

I have no doubt that the students are gifted. But I believe Miranda is more powerful than any singular one of them. And yes, if no one disputes her, and with what else went into her construction by her father, then yes, her powers are very exceptional as the game confirms. Instead of a non-related argument, you still haven't produced a rebuttal that is substantive. You're denying her strength for reasons that are incompatible with what the game depicts. You're disagreeing with what the game depicts essentially. That's pretty clear cut denial on your part.

[dreamgazer]

Miranda's intended to be a gifted biotic, but not an overclocked powerhouse like Jack, Samara, and Morinth (obviously). She's not narcissistic about her abilities, instead simply matter-of-fact about her engineered superiority at everything when she tells Shepard, and she backs it up on the battlefield. I'm not a fan of Miranda, really, but them's the facts.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Miranda's intended to be a gifted biotic, but not an overclocked powerhouse like Jack, Samara, and Morinth (obviously). She's not narcissistic about her abilities, instead simply matter-of-fact about her engineered superiority at everything when she tells Shepard, and she backs it up on the battlefield. I'm not a fan of Miranda, really, but them's the facts.

 

Exactly. And I've been pretty clear to say that she's not said overclocked powerhouse like Jack. I don't really know whether Samara or Morinth would fit that term, since they are Asari, with biotic ability on a completely different level from Humans, especially since one is a veteran warrior and the other is a powerful Ardat-Yakshi, both of whom have been crafting and honing their skills over centuries of training.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Looks like I missed out on an interesting discussion.

 

Well I'll weigh-in, late though I may be. I can see the Teltin facility being justified in some circumstances, but not as is. I feel the same way about Overlord -- I agreed with just about everything Gavin Archer said in defense of it, but the little bit that I do not agree with leads me to pull the plug. To justify those things, you first need to believe that the best interests of the many should come before those of the few (who, in this case, are harmed in the process of reaching that end). While I strongly agree with that general sentiment, it does not work for me here when it's used to justify harm being done where it otherwise may not be. You've made the "greater good" reason to hurt people, when alternatives that reach that same ends (to varying degrees) do exist. So while the many may benefit, they also become targets for the next thing you're trying to achieve through this principle.

 

Some folks make this same argument against any "color choice" of ME3's ending, but that doesn't hold up in my eyes because: (1) there are no other, better alternatives at hand; (2) you're not causing the harm that will take place here by not choosing anything, so you're not using "greater good" to broadly justify harming people (only justifying it in scenarios such as this one, which are very extreme); (3) the benefits outweigh the downsides mightily.

 

In the end, though, we are not VIs (I was going to say "robots," but that would become problematic, given the issue of sentient and sapient robots in the MEU). Human beings should not be so easily discarded and disregarded in the name of improvement -- everyone counts.

[Kurt M.]

That doesn't destroy my argument at all. In fact, it's only tangentially related to the power of Miranda's biotics. Which is being discussed. You've brought up a point that isn't relevant and doesn't discredit Miranda's biotics, only tells you how powerful the Grissom Academy biotics are (with their powers combined, though I won't drag that detail in). 

 

I have no doubt that the students are gifted. But I believe Miranda is more powerful than any singular one of them. And yes, if no one disputes her, and with what else went into her construction by her father, then yes, her powers are very exceptional as the game confirms. Instead of a non-related argument, you still haven't produced a rebuttal that is substantive. You're denying her strength for reasons that are incompatible with what the game depicts. You're disagreeing with what the game depicts essentially. That's pretty clear cut denial on your part.

 

I repeat, for the 368th time: And exactly what proof do you have that Miranda is "more powerful" than them, if anything that there is to describe her biotic powers is the same narrator text than of the students? You keep saying how amazing and remarkable Miranda is above all the rest of the biotics, but offer absolutely no proof despite repeating the same old "Miranda is amazing cos she says so!" crap over and over. And this is getting boring

 

And oh, I've already provided a rebuttal (that in the game there's ABSOLUTELY no proof her biotic powers are superior to, say, Thane or Jacob, who aren't even biotic especialists so don't try again to buff them for your sake of your argument....it's pathetic). The fact that you insist on going along with your argument despite that shows how much you're up for discussions.

 

Again, Miranda is at much above-average, like those Grissom kids. But not a biotic goddess like you seem to think she is. That definition is reserved for Samara or Jack. Ah, and BTW, to be titled a "powerful/amazing/whatever biotic", one should also be able to perform admirably under situations of extreme stress (aka, the biotic bubble ). Or do you think they give out Navy Seals titles (for example), just "because you tried to become one"?

 

So yea, just stop that retarded "that trial was not faiiir!" argument...pretty pathetic, too

[KaiserShep]

Eh, it doesn't matter. No one tops biotic Shepard anyway. After project Lazarus, adept or vanguard Shepard is like a Jedi wizard superhero.

[dreamgazer]

I don't think the bubble is the make-or-break point for Miranda's talent, though.  It's not all about raw power.

 

I'd possibly consider Slam to be the thing that takes her up a notch above most other biotics.

[SwobyJ]

Miranda is a 'biotic goddess' in human (without augmentation or resurrection etc) terms.

 

The idea is that she was both 'born this way' but also 'designed this way'.

 

She has some of the highest biotic skill potential of humanity. Like the top percentile, for sure.

 

But that doesn't necessarily mean that she IS the most powerful human biotic. Like anyone, she'd have to have focused training on it for many years.

 

Jack was a shortcut approach. A test to not just see if you could engineer not a better human, but the furthest extent that a human could reach without dying/going beyond insane.

 

Samara was a naturally gifted biotic (as most asari are) - who then takes the training of decades and centuries. If she was Miranda's age, she obviously also wouldn't be able to hold the biotic field.

 

Get Miranda to be closer to immortal and train her biotics for decades, and then we'll see how good she is. She has the potential; she is gifted.

 

Shepard can be explained as also gifted - but the mix of luck, dedication, and courage to act. This is why Miranda has a degree of jealousy of him. It is one thing to be born for something (which can foster all sorts of personality disorders), but another to witness someone climb to your level and beyond and also luck out not dying in the process.

[SwobyJ]

I don't think the bubble is the make-or-break point for Miranda's talent, though.  It's not all about raw power.

 

I'd possibly consider Slam to be the thing that takes her up a notch above most other biotics.

 

Yes Miranda has a lot of:

-short term power (Slam)

-frequent small bursts (Warp)

-and is able to hold a biotic field in itself

 

What she lacks is the sustainability PLUS power PLUS biotic barrier defense at the same time.

Samara has the sustainability, and Jack has the power, but they both have a high level of both anyway.

 

And this is fine. Samara and Jack and ME3 Liara are some of the most powerful biotics in the known MEU for various reasons. Miranda has to settle for being one of the most powerful human biotics (along with being one of the most clever human technicians).

She's essentially Upper Mid Tier overall, and when you add in her Leadership aspect, she's very very capable.

(NOTE: I do not mean 'leading the band of Suicide Mission misfits', but rather those already devoted to a/the cause that she is in authority about)

[KaiserShep]

I don't think the bubble is the make-or-break point for Miranda's talent, though.  It's not all about raw power.

 

I'd possibly consider Slam to be the thing that takes her up a notch above most other biotics.

 

With that and heavy warp, Miranda is easily the most useful of the biotics in the team. Combining that with Overload makes her a super sentinel. With her and Jack with my Vanguard, crowd controlling is laughably easy.

[Excella Gionne]

With that and heavy warp, Miranda is easily the most useful of the biotics in the team. Combining that with Overload makes her a super sentinel. With her and Jack with my Vanguard, crowd controlling is laughably easy.

Too bad, there's hardly any combo detonation with powers in ME2. Only ME3 could Miranda perform Biotic and Tech explosions.

[Kurt M.]

Lol, so many Mirandass lovers here. That's...kind of sad really...

Well, I can't compete against that, I guess.