9088 réponses à ce sujet

[clennon8]

How droll, destroying the Reapers, who have been systematically annihilating advanced civilizations for over a billion years. Anybody could have done that. Only someone "special" would impose his will on every living organism in the galaxy, fundamentally altering them at a DNA level.

[Taboo]

That's the thing though, I have no idea what they're going to do.

I have a vague idea of what Control does. We know that nothing blows up, at least we do now. Don't the relays blow up in Control though? At least in the cut scenes? I haven't watched the cut scene. I know that the Citadel simply closes yes?

I think what the EC is going to do more than anything is simply tell us more and what happens afterwords. That is to say, no husks, a reunion for some and the Reapers not going berserk in Control and rebuilding happening in all of them? Does that make sense?

[PsyrenY]

clennon8 wrote...

Anybody could have done that.  

Anybody with a Crucible and a gun, yes. Thanks for agreeing.

[Uncle Jo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think you'll have to see that in the light of development history. In the leaked script, just a few months before release, Destroy was the only ending where the relays were destroyed. They had it set up for a stepped sacrifice scenario:

Destroy: Shepard can live, civilization is set back
Control: Shepard's gone but somehow still there, civilization stays as it is.
Synthesis: Shepard's irrevocably dead, civilization is advanced.

I thought that was good. I have no idea why they scrapped that neat balance. Just as I have no idea why they scrapped the other stuff that made the ending make sense.

OP I understand your point. However a leaked script is not canon. And if I follow your logic, the Reapers have 2 chances out of 3 to survive, Shepard none (As I said I don't have any problem with Shep dying, but it just doesn't make any sense here).

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Irrelevant - anybody who got up there could shoot that pipe, including Anderson or a remorseful TIM.

They didn't.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Not everyone can control Reapers (requires overcoming/resisting indoctrination)

Boy, ol' Shep sure did a good job of that when he shot Anderson, didn't he? And it wasn't even a reaper who forced him.

Optimystic_X wrote...
and only Shepard can synthesize (requires being synthetic-organic oneself.)

I recall there being tons of those types in the galaxy.

Optimystic_X wrote...
And again, it requires no personal sacrifice of any part of you, just the ability to fire a gun.

Shep is told directly he would die as well, not continue in some wierd form.

[Taboo]

The Catalyst says that he might die.

Might is different from will.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have a vague idea of what Control does. We know that nothing blows up, at least we do now. Don't the relays blow up in Control though? At least in the cut scenes? I haven't watched the cut scene. I know that the Citadel simply closes yes?

In Control, the Relays do not blow apart like they do in D/S.
see 1:28 of the comparison video

Taboo-XX wrote...
I think what the EC is going to do more than anything is simply tell us more and what happens afterwords. That is to say, no husks, a reunion for some and the Reapers not going berserk in Control and rebuilding happening in all of them? Does that make sense?

I think it should go a step further and give us at least a rough idea of the long-term effects the endings have on the galaxy, much like the unofficial epilogues did.

[Ieldra]

Then why are you here, clennon8? I think results have to be balanced against costs, that's why you can't discuss the morality of Synthesis without having an idea of what it does. If you actually read my OP, you'd have noticed I tried to minimize the costs.

Besides, stating "It's wrong" as apodictically as you is meaningless. Why? Because you can't prove it. You can call hundreds of people who agree with you but that doesn't make it true. You can't reality-check such claims. There are cultures who'd accept a much higher degree of paternalism if the results appear worth the costs. Also - if the results *are* good, then it stands to reason that a good denied is an evil. Note that I'm not trying to actually justify anything at this point. I'm only pointing out why moral absolutism about this isn't a reasonable stance.

[Uncle Jo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Catalyst says that he might die.

Might is different from will.

Which choice are you referring to?

[Uncle Jo]

antares_sublight wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Irrelevant - anybody who got up there could shoot that pipe, including Anderson or a remorseful TIM.

They didn't.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Not everyone can control Reapers (requires overcoming/resisting indoctrination)

Boy, ol' Shep sure did a good job of that when he shot Anderson, didn't he? And it wasn't even a reaper who forced him.

Optimystic_X wrote...
and only Shepard can synthesize (requires being synthetic-organic oneself.)

I recall there being tons of those types in the galaxy.

Optimystic_X wrote...
And again, it requires no personal sacrifice of any part of you, just the ability to fire a gun.

Shep is told directly he would die as well, not continue in some wierd form.

This. Absolutely this.

[Taboo]

Thanks for clearing that up.

And as for those epilogue slides, those would be a great addition.

People simply want closure, that's all. That's the failing with all this.

The Synthesis people want their future, the Talimancers want Tali and the Control people want whatever is going on there.

You can do all that will clarification, epilogue and "more answers".

Watch as people stop complaining in droves.

[Taboo]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Catalyst says that he might die.

Might is different from will.

Which choice are you referring to?

Destroy.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

They didn't.

But they could have. We know Anderson could Destroy, because we see him doing it in the Destroy vision.
We know Anderson could not Control, because he couldn't even manage to shake off TIM's indoctrination (whereas Shepard could.)
We know Anderson could not Synthesize, because he is purely organic.

antares_sublight wrote... 
Boy, ol' Shep sure did a good job of that when he shot Anderson, didn't he? And it wasn't even a reaper who forced him.

He did a better job when he shot TIM. (Or when he convinced an implanted minion to shoot himself. Twice.)

antares_sublight wrote... 
I recall there being tons of those types in the galaxy.

Not one is like Shepard.

antares_sublight wrote... 
Shep is told directly he would die as well, not continue in some wierd form.

Even if s/he is only able to give one order to end the war before losing awareness, that's one more than TIM would have gotten off.

[clennon8]

I think it's as morally absolute as saying "rape is wrong." Yes, I went there, and I mean it. Not in a way that diminishes the horror of rape, but rather maximizes the unbelievable gall of imposing physical change on EVERY SINGLE LIVING ORGANISM IN THE GALAXY. It is a violation at the most fundamental level I can imagine. And you can't retro-justify it with speculation on the ensuing benefits.

Modifié par clennon8, 25 mai 2012 - 01:17 .

[YNation913]

Has anyone considered that the relay explosion scene in the control ending is shortened simply because the music would be out of sync if the scene had been extended? Shepard's death scene in control is longer than any other ending, which throws off the music.

[antares_sublight]

Taboo-XX wrote...
People simply want closure, that's all. That's the failing with all this.

The Synthesis people want their future, the Talimancers want Tali and the Control people want whatever is going on there.

You can do all that will clarification, epilogue and "more answers".

Watch as people stop complaining in droves.

Agreed. The ending just isn't satisfying.

[Taboo]

Control is some sort of bizarre apotheosis to me. Becoming the essence of Control...a fascinating concept.

I don't like the idea of one being having all that power though. What happens if Shepard has to continue the cycle? All he is doing is taking over for the Star Child correct?

[Uncle Jo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Catalyst says that he might die.

Might is different from will.

Which choice are you referring to?

Destroy.

Nope. Never. All that he said is "...even you are partly synthetic"

[PsyrenY]

clennon8 wrote...

I think it's as morally absolute as saying "rape is wrong." Yes, I went there, and I mean it. Not in a way that diminishes the horror or rape, but rather maximizes the unbelievable gall of imposing physical change on EVERY SINGLE LIVING ORGANISM IN THE GALAXY. It is a violation at the most fundamental level I can imagine. And you can't retro-justify it with speculation on the ensuing benefits.

The only commonality between Synthesis and rape is lack of consent. In which case you may as well equate every involuntary imposition to rape. I got raped from my job by my boss, the judge raped me to do community service, I was raped from my apartment by my landlord etc.

YNation913 wrote...

Has anyone considered that the relay explosion scene in the control ending is shortened simply because the music would be out of sync if the scene had been extended? Shepard's death scene in control is longer than any other ending, which throws off the music.

At PAX, Weekes mentioned that the Citadel and Relays being intact in Control was intentional.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 24 mai 2012 - 07:58 .

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I think it's as morally absolute as saying "rape is wrong." Yes, I went there, and I mean it. Not in a way that diminishes the horror or rape, but rather maximizes the unbelievable gall of imposing physical change on EVERY SINGLE LIVING ORGANISM IN THE GALAXY. It is a violation at the most fundamental level I can imagine. And you can't retro-justify it with speculation on the ensuing benefits.

The only commonality between Synthesis and rape is lack of consent. In which case you may as well equate every involuntary imposition to rape. I got raped from my job by my boss, the judge raped me to do community service, I was raped from my apartment by my landlord etc.

I think we're getting a bit....hair splitish here.

There is a big difference between what you are saying and forcing change on everyone in the galaxy.

You cannot minimilze the effects of Synthesis against something as petty as a ****ty boss.

[clennon8]

The only commonality between Synthesis and rape is lack of consent.

That's the only commonality that matters.

[Uncle Jo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Control is some sort of bizarre apotheosis to me. Becoming the essence of Control...a fascinating concept.

I don't like the idea of one being having all that power though. What happens if Shepard has to continue the cycle? All he is doing is taking over for the Star Child correct?

The space troll said "Or do you think you can control us". If you choose Control, congrats you're the new space troll (or a new very valuable husk).

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

They didn't.

But they could have. We know Anderson could Destroy, because we see him doing it in the Destroy vision.

Seriously? Just like TIM was able to Control???

Optimystic_X wrote...
We know Anderson could not Control, because he couldn't even manage to shake off TIM's indoctrination (whereas Shepard could.)

Umm... Anderson, despite being physically stunned, was lucid and resistant through the whole ordeal. Shepard held out a gun for a long time and shot Anderson.

Optimystic_X wrote...
We know Anderson could not Synthesize, because he is purely organic.

He was also born in London. So?

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote... 
Boy, ol' Shep sure did a good job of that when he shot Anderson, didn't he? And it wasn't even a reaper who forced him.

He did a better job when he shot TIM. (Or when he convinced an implanted minion to shoot himself. Twice.)

And yet... he still shot Anderson while under control of indoctrination. Good candidate for Control there.

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote... 
I recall there being tons of those types in the galaxy.

Not one is like Shepard.

Everyone is an individual, except twins. Are you referring to Shepard's physical traits or story-hero-fortitude?

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote... 
Shep is told directly he would die as well, not continue in some wierd form.

Even if s/he is only able to give one order to end the war before losing awareness, that's one more than TIM would have gotten off.

What? And why are you comparing Shepard with TIM in terms of being the hero of the game?

[YNation913]

Optimystic_X wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I think it's as morally absolute as saying "rape is wrong." Yes, I went there, and I mean it. Not in a way that diminishes the horror or rape, but rather maximizes the unbelievable gall of imposing physical change on EVERY SINGLE LIVING ORGANISM IN THE GALAXY. It is a violation at the most fundamental level I can imagine. And you can't retro-justify it with speculation on the ensuing benefits.

The only commonality between Synthesis and rape is lack of consent. In which case you may as well equate every involuntary imposition to rape. I got raped from my job by my boss, the judge raped me to do community service, I was raped from my apartment by my landlord etc.

To add to this, as human beings we impose our will on everything less intelligent than us already. I'm pretty sure I've never raped my dog.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

There is a big difference between what you are saying and forcing change on everyone in the galaxy.

There's also a big difference between Synthesis and rape, but since we're choosing to paint with broad strokes, two can play that game.