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[Obadiah]

Legion is a very interesting character, but most of what it says in ME2 is essentially the Geth philosophy, and not immutable given circumstances.

With respect to distinct life, Synthesis is a chain reaction to combine all Synthetic and Organic life into a new framework, a new DNA. However, it is not clear to me that we all occupy the same part of that matrix. Everyone still looks fairly diverse in the slides.

[Iakus]

*desperate attempt to haul thread back on topic*

 

One of the things that makes the ending choice difficult for me is what's true and the parameters of the story change quite often. ME2 Legion talks quite a bit about not only the geth wanting their own future but the Reapers destroying anything that doesn't fit their mold. Yet ME3 and Synthesis have an undercurrent of "all life, synthetic and organic must become less distinct to survive and thrive." And there's no acknowledgement that the previous view existed. I have no idea on what basis I'm supposed to make a decision. Synthesis is what I like best. Control is what I'd choose if I were Shep. Destroy fits prior installments best.

Yeah the trilogy spends much of its time telling us diversity is a good thing, and that it's better to solve your own problems rather than let the solution be handed to you.  Synthesis goes against both.

[masster blaster]

That is the moral lesson i believe is being told lakus. diversity is unity though different talents. Strange as it might sound, diversity leaves us all different, yet similar. DNA/genetics we could be related to one another, color, ideals, yet have different views of life, interest, and other things we like.

 

It's good to be different and not all the same, for if one and the same there is nothing to teach about anything. Life would just be blank, and no advancements that would matter. For if everyone had same DNA for example, there could be a virus that affects all. life would come to an end, for a short period or that of a long one. However diversity is an evolutionary trait that allows species to survive. reaching pinnacle of evolution is usurped. There is always going to be change. For that is just how life goes. We grow old, die, live the life we want or hate, yet in the end evolution goes on.

 

Though it is a game, synthesis is just plain stupid imo. Other will disagree, which is common, i don't hold anything against them for that, for it is an endless cycle.

[Kurt M.]

Why don't we take this over to the Miranda thread, where I can show you that this is essentially what I said your argument was.

 

No need. I'm tired of guys who talks and talks while saying nothing (I was into politics for a while, you know). And I've grown a healthy laconic indifference towards them.

 

So enjoy being a minister, "sir"

 

--END OF DISCUSSION--

[SwobyJ]

*desperate attempt to haul thread back on topic*

 

One of the things that makes the ending choice difficult for me is what's true and the parameters of the story change quite often. ME2 Legion talks quite a bit about not only the geth wanting their own future but the Reapers destroying anything that doesn't fit their mold. Yet ME3 and Synthesis have an undercurrent of "all life, synthetic and organic must become less distinct to survive and thrive." And there's no acknowledgement that the previous view existed. I have no idea on what basis I'm supposed to make a decision. Synthesis is what I like best. Control is what I'd choose if I were Shep. Destroy fits prior installments best.

 

'Synthesis' (in the rhetorical sense) is what it is. It is both sides coming to compromise and the optimal solution for both. One's thesis is usually just about protecting their own interest. One's anti-thesis is usually about sacrificing your own interest for the sake of another interest. But Synthesis is having both your interest and another's interest resolved, even if that

 

I sometimes concieve of it with this (I admit, really silly) example. A playpen has a few toys in it, of various sizes. They don't automatically fit together, but they still kinda do (like maybe a fire truck toy can work with the Lego man toy with some imagination involved). Three kids go in the playpen, and the 'adults' are across the house or something.

 

'Destroy' - You take all the toys and bully or kick out those who whine about it. If another tries to take the toys from you, you get into a fight about it. Win or Lose it all. If you Win, sure, you can do whatever you want with all the toys in there. Just too bad that everything depends so much on just you. What if you don't know what to do with the toys? What if the two kids gang up on you? But hey, as long as you won, you're winning. Others may even acknowledge your Winning position, and defer their toys to you just by virtue of you being the toughest kid in the playpen - especially if they don't think the parents have their back, or that the 3rd kid is a poopypants. Even if you're bullying, that doesn't mean that the other kids are totally worse off - if they understand just not to mess with you, they'll probably be able to have some sorts of toys.

 

~~~

 

'Control' - You take the toys and distribute them pretty evenly, even if the best ones may be for you. However, you're good-natured enough about it that others won't challenge you as much. And if they do, the 3rd kid may even take your side. So now, since you're all 'getting along' more or less, you can no co-operate, and.. .. SHARE your toys a bit, even if you still take ownership over your own. This is what most playtime scenarios are hopefully designed to be (because 'Destroy' sucks unless your kid is a bully, and 'Synthesis' seems unreasonable to expect). So you kids start making all sorts of cool things. You suggest ways to direct the playtime, and you'll be listened to sometimes, but also ignored other times, but at least when you're listened to, the results are better overall. Sharing is Caring. Even when you make sure that you have enough power (social or otherwise) to ensure that the Sharing is happening in the first place. The major danger is of things breaking down - kids start arguing about what to do, and you may not be listened to, and suddenly everyone is crying.

 

~~~

 

So here's the important one I wanted to compare...

 

'Synthesis' - This is those rare occasions. Those occasions where every kid is in sync (you'll almost never see this in a daycare), is familiar with each other enough that cooperation is done instinctual, yet everything you wanted to do is still done. 'Sharing' isn't even what is happening, since all of the toys belong to everyone. This is the ideal mode where you're not just fighting others, or being fought against, or controlling others, or being controlled by.. but instead in pretty much a harmony with others. It's really what we all try to be, unless we're jaded, depressed, anxious etc.

 

There are a couple at least possible downsides though. The first is that the outcome is much more restrictive for everyone. By that, I mean that no one is going to deviate from the collective plan for playtime enough to cause the other kids to freak out about it. Nor are they going to keep themselves from being heard - they're not going to only go along to get along. When two sides meet synthesis, that really is the state (at least for a specific issue) where the best option is picked, even if it means that YOU don't get everything you always wanted/have, or THEY don't get everything they always wanted/have. It's a more universal state.

 

The second outcome is that even if the playtime is done 'perfectly', that also means that a lot of potentially great experiences are not happening. Maybe that fight between Kid A and Kid B would have been necessary in order for them to make up and become better friends than they otherwise would have been? Maybe that cooperation between Kid B and Kid C would have taught Kid B some humility and would be something he'll carry on until even adulthood? Sometimes just 'being perfect to one another' keeps any of this individual or collective growth from happening, for the same of the more universal growth (the result of the playtime).

 

~~~

 

The thing with 'organic code' is that it goes in tons of different directions, many of them leading to permanent death. So many lines of evolution that really, from the outsider view, appear pointless. Yet it was through this evolution that you and I are here today. Was it due to many peoples' determination, fighting spirits, etc? Yes. But was it also a heck of a lot of luck? Absolutely.

The more 'synthetic' our mentalities can get, the more we aspire to leave the confines of natural evolution and make ourselves the people who may one day be able to cross the stars. This takes direction, order, and diligence that otherwise might not be there.

 

The thing with 'synthetic code' (at least in Mass Effect) is that it goes in one very predictable and orderly direction. It sees one optimal route and reaches for that, regardless of the other consequences. When it thinks, it won't really understand the emotional or historical context to things as much as organics will. Tradition isn't important. (*note: The Geth imo were NOT '100%' synthetics, but always harbored that bit of themselves that wanted a connection to their creator organics. There are very few '100%' anything in the series) Adapting to changing environments and circumstances is what is important - not the resistance to them.

 

Reaper code appears to be 'synthetic code' that endeavors to greater and greater degrees of 'integration' with 'organic code'. It was always imperfect, and thus disastrous due to the scale it was being implemented as.

 

So what's 'synthesis'? Or transcendence? Or whatever its called? It seems to be that impossible middle ground where chaos and order meet. Where one's individual will is fully recognized, even while another's actions still occur. Normally, this can't happen. IRL we argue, or we manipulate, or we subvert, or we harm, in various physical and virtual ways. So to reach such common ground that all of these things are allowed, while we still all live happily together.. well, that's utopian. But still, its been possible on the micro scale, between siblings, or lovers, or best friends, or small organizations.

 

What's the downside? Well, in a way, try to imagine the Synthesis-Galaxy facing another galaxy. The Synthesis-Galaxy may have all moved on and become their 'something more' and accepted it for a while, but the other galaxy will NOT join the fold. While the Synth-Galaxy may actually be very peaceful in relations to the other galaxy ... how do you think the other galaxy will behave? It'll more likely try to either head to war, or control the Synth for themselves, without having to join in on the lovefest.

 

And we see the micro examples of this today. A group of people may have near total peace reached with one another. They may not even need authority figures to keep the peace, or to vent at each other their problems with each other. They're great. But then, they're taken advantage of. This is why Javik mentions that society that was so peaceful, but was still wiped out. Even the most transcendent needs to remember what is happening in the here and now, on the ground, and be ready for it. We can only hope that a 'Synthesis Galaxy' doesn't just rest on its clouds, but remembers that there's always, always something bigger than it.

 

So yeah, long story short, choose wisely

[SwobyJ]

That is the moral lesson i believe is being told lakus. diversity is unity though different talents. Strange as it might sound, diversity leaves us all different, yet similar. DNA/genetics we could be related to one another, color, ideals, yet have different views of life, interest, and other things we like.

 

It's good to be different and not all the same, for if one and the same there is nothing to teach about anything. Life would just be blank, and no advancements that would matter. For if everyone had same DNA for example, there could be a virus that affects all. life would come to an end, for a short period or that of a long one. However diversity is an evolutionary trait that allows species to survive. reaching pinnacle of evolution is usurped. There is always going to be change. For that is just how life goes. We grow old, die, live the life we want or hate, yet in the end evolution goes on.

 

Though it is a game, synthesis is just plain stupid imo. Other will disagree, which is common, i don't hold anything against them for that, for it is an endless cycle.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that as a more philosophical concept, reaching synthesis isn't automatically bad at all. It is actually what we're always trying to achieve, even when we don't end up liking what it entails.

 

'Synth' is to me, for example, Thane giving up his life of assassinations and Kolyat softening his heart, before Thane dies. Sure, they could have harbored grudges towards each other until the end. Sure, they could have just agreed to leave each other alone. But they ended up understanding each others' points of view and not just that - they accepted them. This does mean that Kolyat isn't hardened and Thane doesn't continue his business - but an external force of change (the illness, Shepard) pushed them both forward into a place of reconciliation, regardless of past hurts and conflicts.

 

What Bioware might be at least starting to (I wonder what the next game will have) ask us, is whether we want to go for the route of reconciliation, or reject it. But it already shakes situations up to know that the option exists. Paragon was more about easing things up so that Shepard can move on, and Renegade was more about moving on asap so that things will ease up.. but it wasn't until the ME2 Loyalty missions and especially ME3 that Shepard gets more actively interested in 'making the world a better place for everyone', instead of just 'doing his job' or 'protecting others'.

[Obadiah]

A possible understanding...
 

...
Catalyst: There is another solution. Synthesis.
Shepard: And that is?
Catalyst: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new... DNA.
...

The two other options, Destroy and Control, are intentional disruptions or changes to Synthetics only (lower EMS means their effects have further collateral damage). Adding "organic energy" changes the Crucible pulse to affect organics as well. The "new DNA" statement could only apply to organics, and as we see with plants at the Normandy crash scene, all organic life is changed into something new.

The Catalyst used the word "combine" when describing the change, indicating that the essence of what organic and synthetic life was previously is not lost, but that in Synthesis something is added or integrated into both, and that the two become one.
 

...
Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.
Catalyst: Your organic energy, the essence of who and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.
...

"Essence" is an interesting term. From Wikipedia "In philosophy, essence is the attribute or set of attributes that make an entity or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity." This essence of not only what Shepard is, but who he is, will be broken down and dispersed along with the original technology disrupting energy blast. The essence, though it may not exist after the Synthesis pulse, is required to affect the change.
 

...
Shepard: To do what exactly?
Catalyst: The energy of the Crucible, released in this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy.
...

Here the explanation becomes a little more specific. Organic life in the galaxy will physically be changed. This makes sense since, again, DNA only exists in organics and Synthesis creates a new DNA.

 

...
Catalyst: Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics in turn will finally have full understanding of Organics. It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, we will inevitably reach Synthesis.
...

The change to organics fully integrates them with technology. This new type of life creates a new "framework", which allows synthetic life to integrate with organics to become a kind of symbiotic Syntho-Organic life-form. It is the next step in the Quarian/Geth peace symbiosis. With peace on Rannoch, the Geth can exist with Quarian suits and improve the Quarian's immune systems - they can essentially improve the Quarians beyond the Quarian's original expectations. In Synthesis, the Synthetics can now exist within the Organics themselves. This in turn allows Synthetics the "full" understanding of Organics.
 

...
Shepard: Why couldn't you do it sooner?
Catalyst: We have tried a similar solution in the past. But it has always failed.
Shepard: Why?
Catalyst: Because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. You are ready, and you may choose it.
...

Organics are changed regardless to be fully integrated with technology, however the integration between Synthetic and Organic life must be chosen individually by the each Organic and Synthetic, as was described by Tali when speaking of how the Geth were helping the Quarians. In Synthesis, to gain understanding, Synthetic life is able to fully realize its originally created purpose, if it so chooses. This is the combination of Synthetic and Organic life that the Catalyst first mentions that can exist within the new DNA framework.

My assumption is that EDI and Joker could one day become integrated as a symbiotic entity.

[CosmicGnosis]

So have we misunderstood the Catalyst's line about being unable to force Synthesis as a solution? Usually we interpret that line as a contradiction to the outcome; it says that Synthesis can't be forced, but it clearly is forced. However, if the Catalyst is not referring directly to Synthesis, but rather the integration of organic and synthetic beings, which is only possible after Synthesis, then the line makes a little more sense. It's not saying that Synthesis can't be forced, it's saying that the seamless integration of organics and synthetics can't be forced. But even then, what does that really mean? Couldn't a synthetic potentially hack an organic's mind? 

[SwobyJ]

Its saying that the Reapers cannot force an organic into it, for it to work *properly*.

 

That Organics can't keep blowing up Machines like this, sure, but Machines also can't keep hacking Organics like this.

 

The solution is to make every Machine have full access to every Organic, and thus their wants and emotions and dreams and passion and attachments to others and themselves. (This also means that every Machine is really more of an Entity)

 

But it also means that every Organic has full access to every method of mechanism and data that Machines have, and the ability to process this information. (This also means that every Organic is really more of an Entity) Not in the Cloud even (Indoctrination?), but in an all encompassing One.

 

With the Final Singularity into one, everything is everything yet also something.

 

Could a Synthetic hack an Organic's mind? Sure. And right back at ya. The Synthetic, upon becoming 'more Organic' in its understanding, will not wish to let go of this understanding. It makes them feel more alive, instead of sedate/metal. This will leave them also open for exploit by Organics.

 

With everyone having these tools AND emotions innate to them, conflict actually subsides and they instantly understand their place in the galaxy.

 

It, conflict, may still happen, but it won't be chaotic OR ordered. It will be transcendent, at least relatively so. It isn't "I don't wanna be hacked!" (Organic) or "Code revision is to be expected" (Synthetic), but both. Code revision with a temperance that will benefit the new 'self', yet also with an embrace of it in itself.

 

That's why they're not scared of husks btw. They are all connected, and things like physical appearance becomes simultaneously available to change by all (there'd be a kind of search for beauty for sure), but also a total sympathy or at least lack of concern about the ugly. Husks are just extensions of Reaper action. Organics are free thinking entities with emotions and values. Transcendence is recognizing both and neither at the same time (it is recognized, but also not emphasized).

 

~~~

 

It is debatable, for example - on top of whether EDI should be seeking to be more human (Renegade stance) -  whether EDI is more human with Paragon Shepard influence, making revisions to her own code, or whether EDI is more 'human' in Synthesis.

 

For the Renegade - EDI will never be human, and is ultimately a funny-talking tool. One that Shep usually kinda enjoys by ME3, but still doesn't embrace.

For the Paragon - EDI can make her own code revision and actively learn from others. The result being something distinctively robotic, but also with the increasingly warm touch of the human, like a child learning.

For the Synthesis - EDI is automatically/quickly made to understand humans innately, but it is done at the same time as organics are networked into all synthetics. The result is that while EDI is the most emotional ACTING, many players also may feel unnerved at how TYPICALLY emotional she is. There is no quest, not a search for her own way. This is her way, now and forever, provided for her, and she can instead put her computational power (networked with EVERYONE) towards more universal concerns.

 

So the good of it is that we've dealt with the issues and can become freaking techno gods exploring the universe and beyond.

 

The bad of it is that EDI never got to be THE person she was intending to be, or was on the road to forming herself as. She doesn't have years of learning from Jeff as a human (instead of transorganic). She doesn't get to make her decisions about this. The result is a more, well, creepy EDI, even as she acts warm. And don't ever think she'll be able to unplug from the hivemind and make it on her own. She's part of Synthesis and Synthesis is part of her, and she's happy about it, dammit.

 

There's a lighter version of this with Project Overlord, a failed attempt of a much much smaller scale of 'Synthesis'. The outright merger of man and machine is going to be not just alien, but monstrous seeming in some ways, at least from our own organic perspective. Synthesis in EC just has it the most positive appearing yet, but that's only due to Shepard's involvement - one who fought hard for that EMS using PARAGON or RENEGADE means, not the more, I suppose 'Green' Submission.

 

While Paragon EDI *jokes* of being the Overlord, but ultimately really isn't (like all Synthetic mentalities), Synthesis effectively IS the Overlord (*cough*), mixed with everyone else. They are all the Overlord.

 

What happened between ME2 and ME3 is that Shepard, even to the barest extent, can learn what the 'Overlord' actually means, and even if vaguely, attempt to influence its inevitability by sacrificing himself. Through this, he 'ends the cycle' and the 'Reaper threat'. If everyone Remembers Shepard and what he fought for, innately, then they won't be, for example, as lost and confused and evil and ugly as 'Synthesis' otherwise is (*cough* Collectors, Reapers).

 

Yes, Shepard sacrificed himself for our Synthesis.

 

 

 

Of course I have my theories about it all being a dream and only a foreshadowing of concepts that will be more important in later games' plots, but whateverrr.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 @CG: In context, it sounded like the Catalyst was speaking about the readiness of its recipients, hence why the follow up sentence is: "You are ready, and you may choose it." And to the inevitable response questioning the Catalyst's judgment about our readiness, I'll just say that the decision is still Shepard/the player's, so it matters not.

[SwobyJ]

Shepard may choose it because:

 

1)He's a person that would make Synthesis possible, instead of distinctly flawed (lesser EMS) result. Less EMS = less hope. Less hope = more grotesque result everyone is subjected to. More grotesque = well, look how stupid Reapers are while being so smart.

 

2)Shepard is a person who has, to some extent, the wish/want for a best direct solution (Renegade) or the wish/want for an optimal result for his friends (Paragon). This more likely happens, story-tone-wise, when you play a Shepard who actively engages with the world around him and, you know, does stuff like eavesdrops on random people to provide them... solutions. Reputation.

 

 

Of course this makes the Crucible chamber into a mindspacelalalalaala. Paths are open etc etc.

[Obadiah]

Since the combination of Organic and Synthetic life would be voluntary, not all Organics or Synthetics would choose it. Those that did would form the "connection" between both sides that helps prevent the inevitable conflict.

 

Perhaps when the Catalyst tried this solution in the past, no Organics or Synthetics (or not enough of them) volunteered to form the combination of life, or perhaps one side kept betraying the other, so the combination didn't work. With peace between Geth and Quarians in this cycle, there is at least one group of Synthetics and Organics willing to form the connection.

[Iakus]

Since the combination of Organic and Synthetic life would be voluntary, not all Organics or Synthetics would choose it. Those that did would form the "connection" between both sides that helps prevent the inevitable conflict.

 

Perhaps when the Catalyst tried this solution in the past, no Organics or Synthetics (or not enough of them) volunteered to form the combination of life, or perhaps one side kept betraying the other, so the combination didn't work. With peace between Geth and Quarians in this cycle, there is at least one group of Synthetics and Organics willing to form the connection.

Except we see everybody "chose" Synthesis, even those whom it would make no sense.

 

Heck even the trees "chose" Synthesis.  How voluntary is that?

[Obadiah]

The interpretation which gives a choice is over here (a few posts up). The choice is not for Organic full integration with tech (the new framework), the choice is for the combination of Organic and Synthetic life.

[Iakus]

The interpretation which gives a choice is over here (a few posts up). The choice is not for Organic full integration with tech (the new framework), the choice is for the combination of Organic and Synthetic life.

 

Not having a choice in the "new framework" has seriously unpleasant implications

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Not having a choice in the "new framework" has seriously unpleasant implications

 

Not really.

[Mcfly616]

 All life on Earth came from the same origin. Plants and animals alike. We're all connected.

 

 

 

Which is an aspect I like about Synthesis. Putting all life in the galaxy into a new framework in order to include synthetics. Synthesis is the new origin point at which all life in the galaxy is connected.

[MegaSovereign]

 All life on Earth came from the same origin. Plants and animals alike. We're all connected.

 

 

 

Which is an aspect I like about Synthesis. Putting all life in the galaxy into a new framework in order to include synthetics. Synthesis is the new origin point at which all life in the galaxy is connected.

 

If it didn't trivialize the other choices, I would have been okay with Synthesis being canon for the next ME. It provides a literal fresh start and a platform for new ideas and conflicts to flourish.

 

The green circuits look really stupid though. Especially when it's even applied to clothing.

[Mcfly616]

Out of the 3 endings, Synthesis isn't my first choice....

 

 

But I get what they were going for and I find it pretty cool that they put a Mass Effect twist on the concept. 

 

 

 

 

 

Organic circuitry isn't a new concept either. In modern sci fi it's basically par for the course. Peter F Hamilton has some awesome ideas about it in his Commonwealth saga of books.

[MegaSovereign]

Out of the 3 endings, Synthesis isn't my first choice....

 

 

But I get what they were going for and I find it pretty cool that they put a Mass Effect twist on the concept. 

 

 

 

 

 

Organic circuitry isn't a new concept either. In modern sci fi it's basically par for the course. Peter F Hamilton has some awesome ideas about it in his Commonwealth saga of books.

 

I know, but if they did canonize Synthesis the glowy green eyes and circuits on every thing that moves would look distracting and probably really creepy. I think of the Overlord DLC from ME2 everytime I see those eyes...

[nagisa-aoi87]

There is no canon ending so you don't have to be afraid

 

I know, but if they did canonize Synthesis the glowy green eyes and circuits on every thing that moves would look distracting and probably really creepy. I think of the Overlord DLC from ME2 everytime I see those eyes...

[MassivelyEffective0730]

There is no canon ending so you don't have to be afraid

 

I would be careful with how you say this. This can open a huge can of worms.

[dreamgazer]

Guys, the folks in Synthesis apparently have the mysteries of technology and physiology uncorked. I think they could eventually figure out how to flip the green switch.

[SwobyJ]

Guys, the folks in Synthesis apparently have the mysteries of technology and physiology uncorked. I think they could eventually figure out how to flip the green switch.

 

"There's cream for that."

 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Guys, the folks in Synthesis apparently have the mysteries of technology and physiology uncorked. I think they could eventually figure out how to flip the green switch.

 

Or make it change color.

 

Green to red,

Machinehead.