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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#76
Veneke

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delta_vee wrote...

I think what Taboo's getting at is that any explanation of the Synthesis option is entirely paratextual. We have almost nothing in-game (on the page, as it were) to support either the idea of the Singularity or the inevitability of conflict afterward. Paratext can be extremely useful in its own ways, but basic interpretation of the text should never be reliant upon it. Since the game we received was such a fundamentally literalist text, using paratextual ideas to explain it runs counter to the framework used to interpret the remainder of the game ... such an approach cannot be generalized or even suggested as any sort of canonical reading.


You appreciate of course that I said exactly that in the post immediately above yours?

Veneke wrote...
No one suggests that Synthesis is explained ingame. If it did, this thread wouldn't exist. There is ingame evidence that can be used to substantiate the theory but it isn't explained - nothing regarding the end of ME 3 is, in point of fact. That's why we have all the speculation. The evidence the OP uses from the game itself is quite clear. I'll paraphrase...


Given that nothing is explained from the endings it necessitates guesswork and examples drawn from the game before the ending to explain them. Nor is anyone suggesting a canonical ending - if there was an explained canonical ending, we wouldn't be here speculating.

Modifié par Veneke, 21 mai 2012 - 02:56 .


#77
delta_vee

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@Optimystic_X:

Taboo's about the last person you want to lecture about the EC's potential to clear a whole lot of s**t up. He's had several threads about it.

That said, we only have what we have before us. And in the text at hand, Synthesis is so ill-defined as to be nonsensical. If the EC elaborates, if it restores the cut Catalyst dialogue which makes it (a little bit) more clear, then great. Until then, though, we're stuck with the endings we've been given as far as critical analysis and commentary.

#78
PsyrenY

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delta_vee wrote...

@Optimystic_X:

Taboo's about the last person you want to lecture about the EC's potential to clear a whole lot of s**t up. He's had several threads about it.


I couldn't care less if he wrote his dissertation on it. The starting point for any discussion about the EC is the official FAQ, and lying about its contents doesn't help anyone.

#79
delta_vee

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Veneke wrote...

You appreciate of course that I said exactly that in the post you quoted?

[snip without prejudice]

Given that nothing is explained from the endings it necessitates guesswork and examples drawn from the game before the ending to explain them. Nor is anyone suggesting a canonical ending - if there was an explained canonical ending, we wouldn't be here speculating.


Indeed, I do appreciate that. The OP, though, seems to be suggesting a canonical interpretation is possible with the evidence at hand:

I am making this thread to collect and present information that describes the Synthesis ending of Mass Effect 3 as a viable way to end the Reaper threat and secure a future free of any harvesting cycle for the civilizations of the galaxy. I will also include background information which I consider important to make sense of it.


What Taboo's saying, and what I agree with, is that this level of paratextual interpretation may be suitable for personal conclusions, it's not sufficient to establish a full-fledged textual explanation.

Modifié par delta_vee, 21 mai 2012 - 02:59 .


#80
TheCrazyHobo

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

A singularity is a hypothetical issue. It is not even a theory at this point.


Bull****. The Geth freaking achieved it during ME3.

Legion: The geth were building a megastructure to house all geth, store all memories. It was to end our isolation from each other.
Shep: And the quarian flotilla attacked it?
Legion: Yes. A significant amount of programs were installed when creators began bombing. We did not have sufficient surplus hardware to save them all. Some programs could not be recovered.

This is the same Dyson Sphere he tells you about in ME2. The one that, once all of them were in it, would "increase their intelligence beyond calculable measure" and which even he admits "they do not know what the effects will be." That is a textbook singularity, dude.


A technological Singularity is the creation of an AI which is  more intelligent than a human or "Organics." However, a singularity can also be caused by artifical augmentation of the brain which expands the intelligence beyond normal "organic" capacity.  
However, in the Mass Effect Universe, technological singulairties have already occured in the form of AI. EDI is not killing people, the True Geth only fought in self defense and the Virtual Aliens just wanted to live in piece. The only homicidal post-singularity AI are the Reapers, and they are this way because of their "prime directive" to save us from robots.   

#81
dreman9999

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Sisterofshane wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

This is essentially what you propose:

*pic snip*

Complexity is self-limiting. It WILL stop.

Synthesis proposes that point.

What is the point in existing if I cannot improve?

You CANNOT violate basic laws of the Universe.


I agree with your points about the narrative, but seeing as how that will be changed (expanded upon, clarified, whatever) is it not still possible that they will explain that perhaps now organics are allowed to reach the same levels of complexity as synthetics at a much more comparable rate?

But that doesn't solve theissue. If organics and synthetic foght, it would just mean they are equal....The problem the star child is trying to stop is the conflict itself.

#82
delta_vee

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Optimystic_X wrote...

I couldn't care less if he wrote his dissertation on it. The starting point for any discussion about the EC is the official FAQ, and lying about its contents doesn't help anyone.

Frankly, given the paucity of information about the exact contents of the EC, and given the comments delivered in various other forms by the developers themselves (see the tweets of Mike Gamble, Bill Buskell, etc for a start), the offical FAQ of the EC is not exactly canon.

#83
Veneke

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delta_vee wrote...

...

Indeed, I do appreciate that. The OP, though, seems to be suggesting a canonical interpretation is possible with the evidence at hand:

I am making this thread to collect and present information that describes the Synthesis ending of Mass Effect 3 as a viable way to end the Reaper threat and secure a future free of any harvesting cycle for the civilizations of the galaxy. I will also include background information which I consider important to make sense of it.

What he's saying, and what I agree with, is that this level of paratextual interpretation may be suitable for personal conclusions, it's not sufficient to establish a full-fledged textual explanation.

 
I seriously do not see how you have drawn the conclusion that OP wants to create a canonical explanation for Synthesis from that bit you've quoted there.

#84
Veneke

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delta_vee wrote...

Frankly, given the paucity of information about the exact contents of the EC, and given the comments delivered in various other forms by the developers themselves (see the tweets of Mike Gamble, Bill Buskell, etc for a start), the offical FAQ of the EC is not exactly canon.

 
Are you seriously suggesting that the official FAQ of the EC is wrong and that it won't provide further clarity and closure? I'm going to have to ask for proof on that point. Do you have links or screenshots of these tweets which debunk the FAQ?

#85
PsyrenY

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TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

A singularity is a hypothetical issue. It is not even a theory at this point.


Bull****. The Geth freaking achieved it during ME3.

Legion: The geth were building a megastructure to house all geth, store all memories. It was to end our isolation from each other.
Shep: And the quarian flotilla attacked it?
Legion: Yes. A significant amount of programs were installed when creators began bombing. We did not have sufficient surplus hardware to save them all. Some programs could not be recovered.

This is the same Dyson Sphere he tells you about in ME2. The one that, once all of them were in it, would "increase their intelligence beyond calculable measure" and which even he admits "they do not know what the effects will be." That is a textbook singularity, dude.


A technological Singularity is the creation of an AI which is  more intelligent than a human or "Organics." However, a singularity can also be caused by artifical augmentation of the brain which expands the intelligence beyond normal "organic" capacity.  
However, in the Mass Effect Universe, technological singulairties have already occured in the form of AI. EDI is not killing people, the True Geth only fought in self defense and the Virtual Aliens just wanted to live in piece. The only homicidal post-singularity AI are the Reapers, and they are this way because of their "prime directive" to save us from robots.   


Neither EDI nor the Geth are currently at singularity-level. They are both very advanced, but neither is particularly more intelligent than organics.

We see proof of this multiple times in the game. EDI comes to you for relationship advice. She is not smart enough to routinely outfly Reapers without a skilled organic operator (Joker) helping her. Traynor knows of technological upgrades that she does not, as do Adams/Ken/Gabby. As for Legion, Garrus can outcalibrate him, Xen can outhack them, and the Geth are utterly helpless against the Quarians without Reaper assistance. 

However, the Geth were about to achieve singularity. Had they finished their mass-upload, they would not have needed Reaper assistance to protect themselves - Legion tells you this himself. The fact that they were that close to doing so a mere 300 years after birth is extremely telling.

#86
PsyrenY

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delta_vee wrote...

Frankly, given the paucity of information about the exact contents of the EC, and given the comments delivered in various other forms by the developers themselves (see the tweets of Mike Gamble, Bill Buskell, etc for a start), the offical FAQ of the EC is not exactly canon.


Show me a tweet that clearly states "we're not explaining the endings in EC" and I'll drop it. Until then, you're blowing just as much smoke as he is.

And the "paucity of information" is precisely due to the kind of word-twisting that happens in these forums on a routine basis. Maybe if we spread less wilful misinformation around, they'd be more inclined to share things with us. Just a thought.

#87
Taboo

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Optimystic_X wrote...

delta_vee wrote...

Frankly, given the paucity of information about the exact contents of the EC, and given the comments delivered in various other forms by the developers themselves (see the tweets of Mike Gamble, Bill Buskell, etc for a start), the offical FAQ of the EC is not exactly canon.


Show me a tweet that clearly states "we're not explaining the endings in EC" and I'll drop it. Until then, you're blowing just as much smoke as he is.

And the "paucity of information" is precisely due to the kind of word-twisting that happens in these forums on a routine basis. Maybe if we spread less wilful misinformation around, they'd be more inclined to share things with us. Just a thought.


Here's your quote from Michael Gamble, a producer.

It's about time this nonsense stops.

Knock it off.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 03:47 .


#88
PsyrenY

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Here's your quote from the Dev.

It's about time this nonsense stops.

Knock it off.


No, you knock it off. The context of that post was clearly "we're not explaining the ending through Twitter."

Jesus H. Christ, his very next sentence is "you should have questions answered in EC." I expected better reading comprehension out of you, Taboo.

#89
Taboo

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Here's your quote from the Dev.

It's about time this nonsense stops.

Knock it off.


No, you knock it off. The context of that post was clearly "we're not explaining the ending through Twitter."

Jesus H. Christ, his very next sentence is "you should have questions answered in EC." I expected better reading comprehension out of you, Taboo.


No. Let me get ANOTHER quote.

#90
Taboo

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-

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 03:50 .


#91
Taboo

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You are making an inference from small texts. They are simply not talking about the ending period. That's what he means. If you'd pay attention to Twitter you'd know that.

You understand that you cannot explain it with in canon lore? That you cannot explain it away with Arthur C Clarke quotes?

It is to remain unresolved. There is no reason to believe they have any intention of explaining it to you.

Gamble's tweets disappear ALL THE TIME because he can't keep his facts straight.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 03:54 .


#92
PsyrenY

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Taboo-XX wrote...
No. Let me get ANOTHER quote.


Okay, waiting.

Taboo-XX wrote...

You understand that you cannot explain it with in canon lore? That you cannot explain it away with Arthur C Clarke quotes?

It is to remain unresolved. There is no reason to believe they have any intention of explaining it to you.


I don't have to know how Synthesis works to know what it does, any more than I have to know the chemical composition of eezo to know what IT does.

#93
Veneke

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

delta_vee wrote...

Frankly, given the paucity of information about the exact contents of the EC, and given the comments delivered in various other forms by the developers themselves (see the tweets of Mike Gamble, Bill Buskell, etc for a start), the offical FAQ of the EC is not exactly canon.


Show me a tweet that clearly states "we're not explaining the endings in EC" and I'll drop it. Until then, you're blowing just as much smoke as he is.

And the "paucity of information" is precisely due to the kind of word-twisting that happens in these forums on a routine basis. Maybe if we spread less wilful misinformation around, they'd be more inclined to share things with us. Just a thought.


Here's your quote from Michael Gamble, a producer.

It's about time this nonsense stops.

Knock it off.

 

Information without context leads to erroneous conclusions. If you look at the person he's replying to, the question asked is: 'Daily check in to ask if Bioware will explain/defend the ending. If you think it is art it should be easy. No, again? Shocker.'
 
Gamble's choice of words is unfortunate but it's pretty clear that he means that the EC won't explain/defend the ending as a concept but will clarify what the endings actually do.

#94
PsyrenY

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Gamble's tweets disappear ALL THE TIME because he can't keep his facts straight.


Uh-huh.

If that's truly the case, then all the more reason to rely on what the team put out (the EC FAQ) than individual tweets, which as you've clearly demonstrated are rather easy to misinterpret/take out of context.

#95
Taboo

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I don't have to know how Synthesis works to know what it does, any more than I have to know the chemical composition of eezo to know what IT does.


One fits a narrative technique (suspension of disbelief), the other is incredibly poor storytelling, at least in regards to implementation. I could write an entire dissertation on how the image causes reactions in the brain. Eventually the capacity for disbelief becomes inadequate and it simply becomes insulting to the audience. We call people like that hacks where I come from. It is nothing more than attempt to propose a grandiose statement to a hypothetical problem.

I see people like you all the time where I come from. You punish yourselves with things that have no explanation. I would direct you to the films of Andy Warhol for example... 

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 04:01 .


#96
Taboo

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Gamble's tweets disappear ALL THE TIME because he can't keep his facts straight.


Uh-huh.

If that's truly the case, then all the more reason to rely on what the team put out (the EC FAQ) than individual tweets, which as you've clearly demonstrated are rather easy to misinterpret/take out of context.


I've already explained this. It's a PR statement.

It states several things.

No new endings.

New cinematics

New Epilouge scenes.

It promises nothing more.

#97
PsyrenY

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Taboo-XX wrote...

One fits a narrative technique (suspension of disbelief), the other is incredibly poor storytelling, at least in regards to implementation.


Listen, I agree totally that Synthesis was implemented poorly. But it has the capacity to be implemented better (as Ieldra2's thorough analyses prove) and all Bioware has to do is (a) incorporate some or all of these interpretations into EC and/or (B) rely more on the original explanation of Synthesis as opposed to the one that made it in the game.

The difference betwen you and I is that I don't care that Synthesis was implemented poorly. All the endings were. I care about what can be, not what is.

#98
PsyrenY

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I've already explained this. It's a PR statement.

It states several things.

No new endings.

New cinematics

New Epilouge scenes.

It promises nothing more.


"additional context and deeper insight"
"additional clarity and closure"
"additional context and answers"

Did you skip over these phrases?

#99
Taboo

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You must understand that I have written things like the EC FAQ before.

Have I ever told you about Antichrist? The ****storm that happened at MUBI?

It's nothing new to me.

#100
Taboo

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I've already explained this. It's a PR statement.

It states several things.

No new endings.

New cinematics

New Epilouge scenes.

It promises nothing more.


"additional context and deeper insight"
"additional clarity and closure"
"additional context and answers"

Did you skip over these phrases?


That means nothing. 

You are making inferences.