9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...
The key word in your sentence is "turning on the lights let's people see".

Let's people see.

Glorious.

No idea what you're objection is, you're defending the rights of people to ignore the feelings and needs of others whilst at the same time denying the rights to make sure the needy are heard.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
The key word in your sentence is "turning on the lights let's people see".

Let's people see.

Glorious.

No idea what you're objection is, you're defending the rights of people to ignore the feelings and needs of others whilst at the same time denying the rights to make sure the needy are heard.

They should come to that conclusion by themselves.

I would never force a rich man to care about a poor man.

But I can certainly stand outside his window and protest.

But force a change? Never.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They should come to that conclusion by themselves.

I would never force a rich man to care about a poor man.

But I can certainly stand outside his window and protest.

But force a change? Never.

Synthesis doesn't  force him to care, it forces him to recognise the poor person as a fellow being with problems. It removing his ability to close his windows and ignore your protest, or better yet convince himself your protest doesn't exist.

Synthesis doesn't force a change, it shows everyone the real situation so they want to make a change.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They should come to that conclusion by themselves.

I would never force a rich man to care about a poor man.

But I can certainly stand outside his window and protest.

But force a change? Never.

Synthesis doesn't  force him to care, it forces him to recognise the poor person as a fellow being with problems. It removing his ability to close his windows and ignore your protest, or better yet convince himself your protest doesn't exist.

Synthesis doesn't force a change, it shows everyone the real situation so they want to make a change.

You force the change when you jump into the god damn beam. One person causes all of it. Making someone recognzie something with a forced change, such as nanites is a change.

Destroy is the only option that has any bearing on leaving the Universe in any state of normalcy after all of this. There is nothing ethical about it but it affects the least amount of beings. I do not affect the very basic elements of the Universe in this choice. The Reapers still exist in Control and I do not believe that such a variable should be allowed in this case.

Seeing as you have provided me with no evidence to prove you can extract any data from Reapers I have no reason to believe that killing them destroys anything.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 24 mai 2012 - 11:19 .

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wouldn't that have happened in the past?

No it wouldn't. Since the very first Reaper, they have all been under the Catalyst's absolute control.

As for dead Reapers, (a) they follow the Catalyst's program (i.e. indoctrinate nearby organics) even in death, making them impossible to study, and ( if the Heretics are any indication, they would flash their synthetic memories on death rather than let them fall into enemy hands.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wouldn't that have happened in the past?

No it wouldn't. Since the very first Reaper, they have all been under the Catalyst's absolute control.

As for dead Reapers, (a) they follow the Catalyst's program (i.e. indoctrinate nearby organics) even in death, making them impossible to study, and ( if the Heretics are any indication, they would flash their synthetic memories on death rather than let them fall into enemy hands.

But you still haven't proven that said data can be extracted. Will you be retrieving thousands of years of history via paste?

Can you even understand the language they spoke?

You assume that you can extract anything.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

No, it makes you sound like a hubris laden monster. Destory is far from ethical, but it doesn't change the way the galaxy has functioned for billions of years.

1) A singularity could "change the way the galaxy functions" just as easily, only without any concern for the primitive organics it sweeps aside in the process.

2) You'll forgive me if your opinion of my monstrosity isn't exactly a high concern.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

But you still haven't proven that said data can be extracted. Will you be retrieving thousands of years of history via paste?

Can you even understand the language they spoke?

You assume that you can extract anything.

Who knows if it's possible? No one has been able to study Reaper tech for long before. Without (a) their doctrine of slaughtering advanced organics and ( their unconscious indoctrination of every scientist who hangs around them too long, we'll undoubtedly be able to learn more than we know now. 

[Heeden]

You force the change when you jump into the god damn beam. One person causes all of it. Making someone recognzie something with a forced change, such as nanites is a change.

I don't see nanites as having a part in Synthesis and I don't see it forcing a change on anyone, except the change they make for themselves when they have more information. Turning on a light is not a violation just because it forces people to see things.

Destroy is the only option that has any bearing on leaving the Universe in any state of normalcy after all of this. There is nothing ethical about it but it affects the least amount of beings. I do not affect the very basic elements of the Universe in this choice. The Reapers still exist in Control and I do not believe that such a variable should be allowed in this case.

It's almost a brand of cowardice (don't worry, I chose Destroy out of a mix of arrogance and selfishness), you refuse to take responsibility for an unknow even though it will be an improvement on the current situation, so you choose mass genocide to retain "normalcy".

Seeing as you have provided me with no evidence to prove you can extract any data from Reapers I have no reason to believe that killing them destroys anything.

Killing the Reapers kills the Reapers...what part of that do you fail to understand? Before you kill them they are vast, consensus based dyson-sphere A.I. constructs comprising millions or billions of sentient programs (admittedly probably shackled) and after you kill them they're corpses. If a human is killed, do you say it's only murder if someone manages to extract their memories to prove they were alive?

Modifié par Heeden, 24 mai 2012 - 11:28 .

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would rather kill someone that force a change of unknown quantities upon them.

You realize that "unknown" is neutral, not negative, right?

Think of "unknown" as "risk". Risk at galaxy scale. Imposed instantly upon all life in the galaxy. That kind of unknown/risk is most certainly not neutral.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 24 mai 2012 - 11:32 .

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

No, it makes you sound like a hubris laden monster. Destory is far from ethical, but it doesn't change the way the galaxy has functioned for billions of years.

1) A singularity could "change the way the galaxy functions" just as easily, only without any concern for the primitive organics it sweeps aside in the process.

2) You'll forgive me if your opinion of my monstrosity isn't exactly a high concern.

You assume they will be able to reach said state. I provided you with thoughts about energy consumption and you did nothing but ignore it. A singularity would take thousands of years to achieve. You understand that math hasn't even be deduced to predict such things because it's so far fetched?

Carl Sagan proposed it could take a million years to create a level three civilization. Well?

You also need energy to do this. How many places are the Geth going to go? Surely they would remain in one place unless provoked? Like say, The Perseus Veil? They seemed pretty peaceful to me unless provoked. The Quarians attacked their Dyson Sphere and they ran to the Reapers for help.

And what if they reach a feedback loop? Exponential growth is NOT proof of an oncoming singularity. You will stop eventually. 

The Geth are not Time Lords. They are Synthetics that have shown to be peaceful unless provoked. When they achieve a singularity they will no longer exist in this dimension.

They would have to go past a level five on the Kardenshev scale. At said point they wouldn't even be in this dimension anymore.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 24 mai 2012 - 11:34 .

[Taboo]

I seem to recall that Reapers still indoctrinate AFTER they are dead yes?

You assume you can extract anything......

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume they will be able to reach said state. I provided you with thoughts about energy consumption and you did nothing but ignore it.

I provided you with direct quotes from Legion and you ignored those, so why should I pay attention to your crackpot maths? What the Geth were on the cusp of achieving was clearly singularity, no matter how many theories you wave at me.

Taboo-XX wrote... 
A singularity would take thousands of years to achieve. You understand that math hasn't even be deduced to predict such things because it's so far fetched?

Completely irrelevant. Math hasn't come up with AI yet either, yet ME clearly has it.

Taboo-XX wrote... 
Carl Sagan proposed it could take a million years to create a level three civilization. Well?

Is he a Salarian? Geth? No? Then his theory means jack.

Taboo-XX wrote... 
You also need energy to do this. How many places are the Geth going to go? Surely they would remain in one place unless provoked?

Remind me - who provoked the Heretics again? Whose unilateral strike drove them to range outside the Veil seeking vengeance?

Oh that's right - nobody. They flipped a bit.

Like say, The Perseus Veil? They seemed pretty peaceful to me unless provoked. The Quarians attacked their Dyson Sphere and they ran to the Reapers for help.

Taboo-XX wrote... 
The Geth are not Time Lords. They are Synthetics that have shown to be peaceful unless provoked.

Or, you know, get a result of 1.3331 instead of 1.3332.

[Kreid]

Taboo, so you would just ignore the emergence of a super intelligence that might potentially consume the Galaxy and all within it just because it takes time and resources/energy to achieve a singularity? it seems kind of like closing your eyes at the problem.

Also, it's not about extractibng information or not, the thing is that killing a Repaer is committing genocide, it's like killing the Geth uploaded to a dyson sphere, not about the information you get from them but ending trillions of sentient beings.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I seem to recall that Reapers still indoctrinate AFTER they are dead yes?

You assume you can extract anything......

Did you read my post? I specifically addressed that. No Catalyst = No indoctrination, because he holds the reins.

antares_sublight wrote...

Think of "unknown" as "risk". Risk at galaxy scale. Imposed instantly upon all life in the galaxy. That kind of unknown/risk is most certainly not neutral.

All change is risky. But it can be good or bad.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 24 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[Taboo]

I have seen no such quotes from Legion. All you did reveal was your country of origin to me in your top sentence.

Nor have you provided proof that if they are a singularity they will be capable of error. Those math errors you speak of would be pretty unlikely if they reach this omnipotence you speak of.

A singularity is something I cannot comprehend. We understand the Kardenshev scale. We simply wouldn't know how they got there.

They wouldn't exist in this dimension in such a state. They have to be level four to directly manipulate the Universe. At this point they are the equivalent of a Time Lord. They would technically be capable of a time travel.

The next step is extra dimensional travel. They won't exist in our Universe.

[Taboo]

Creid-X wrote...

Taboo, so you would just ignore the emergence of a super intelligence that might potentially consume the Galaxy and all within it just because it takes time and resources/energy to achieve a singularity? it seems kind of like closing your eyes at the problem.

Also, it's not about extractibng information or not, the thing is that killing a Repaer is committing genocide, it's like killing the Geth uploaded to a dyson sphere, not about the information you get from them but ending trillions of sentient beings.

You assume they will be able to do so.

You realize that they will eventually run out of resources?

You cannot violate basic laws of physics.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Think of "unknown" as "risk". Risk at galaxy scale. Imposed instantly upon all life in the galaxy. That kind of unknown/risk is most certainly not neutral.

All change is risky. But it can be good or bad.

This is a fundamental redefinition of life being applied to everything alive in any sense in the entire galaxy. It's not just a simple "change". Totally unmanageable risk being blindly applied to everything. There is nothing neutral about that. Whether the change ends up being purely positive or not, it's unknown and taking that risk is the most irresponsible thing that could be done given what Shepard knows at the time. 

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have seen no such quotes from Legion. All you did reveal was your country of origin to me in your top sentence.

Nor have you provided proof that if they are a singularity they will be capable of error. Those math errors you speak of would be pretty unlikely if they reach this omnipotence you speak of.

A singularity is something I cannot comprehend. We understand the Kardenshev scale. We simply wouldn't know how they got there.

They wouldn't exist in this dimension in such a state. They have to be level four to directly manipulate the Universe. At this point they are the equivalent of a Time Lord. They would technically be capable of a time travel.

The next step is extra dimensional travel. They won't exist in our Universe.

I'll remind you again that a technological singularity did not get that name because it has the ability to fundamentally warp space and time.

It is known as a "singularity" becaue it has an event horizon - a point beyond which you can not predict. It is thought to come about when AI becomes significantly more intelligent than organic intelligence and creates an "intelligence explosion" through recursive upgrading (with each upgrade allowing the production of a superior upgrade).

The Geth dyson-sphere is a text-book case of a technological singularity, even Legion admits they can not predict what the resulting being will do.

[Taboo]

I guess that means I can't play of the games anymore because killing one Reapers is so awful.

Also what proof do you have that I'm killing anything other than the Reaper? You have yet to prove that data can be extracted.

It's a pile of paste. Is Javik going to feel every dead Reaper to decipher what it contains?

Are you serious?

[Kreid]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume they will be able to do so.

You realize that they will eventually run out of resources?

You cannot violate basic laws of physics.

You do understand there is an (probably) infinite ammount of energy in our universe right? Thinking synthethics that evolve magnitudes of orders faster than organics will not eventually gain the ability tu use energy from stars, quasars, the vacuum etc...is naive.

Taboo-XX wrote...

I guess that means I can't play of the games anymore because killing one Reapers is so awful.

Also what proof do you have that I'm killing anything other than the Reaper? You have yet to prove that data can be extracted.

It's a pile of paste. Is Javik going to feel every dead Reaper to decipher what it contains?

Are you serious?

Legion tells you specifically that Reapers contain billions of uploaded minds, those minds pressumably form a gestalt main persona, like Sovereign and Harbinger. Also what kind of data do you want to extract, it's not about data it's about the Reaper being a whole civilization by itself.

Modifié par Creid-X, 25 mai 2012 - 12:00 .

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have seen no such quotes from Legion. All you did reveal was your country of origin to me in your top sentence.

Nor have you provided proof that if they are a singularity they will be capable of error. Those math errors you speak of would be pretty unlikely if they reach this omnipotence you speak of.

A singularity is something I cannot comprehend. We understand the Kardenshev scale. We simply wouldn't know how they got there.

They wouldn't exist in this dimension in such a state. They have to be level four to directly manipulate the Universe. At this point they are the equivalent of a Time Lord. They would technically be capable of a time travel.

The next step is extra dimensional travel. They won't exist in our Universe.

I'll remind you again that a technological singularity did not get that name because it has the ability to fundamentally warp space and time.

It is known as a "singularity" becaue it has an event horizon - a point beyond which you can not predict. It is thought to come about when AI becomes significantly more intelligent than organic intelligence and creates an "intelligence explosion" through recursive upgrading (with each upgrade allowing the production of a superior upgrade).

The Geth dyson-sphere is a text-book case of a technological singularity, even Legion admits they can not predict what the resulting being will do.

You foget the feedback loop I keep mentioning. At some point it will stop. What you propose is a straight line curve.

What evidence do you have to support said claim?

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I guess that means I can't play of the games anymore because killing one Reapers is so awful.

Also what proof do you have that I'm killing anything other than the Reaper? You have yet to prove that data can be extracted.

It's a pile of paste. Is Javik going to feel every dead Reaper to decipher what it contains?

Are you serious?

The fact you are killing the Reaper is enough, again do you justify murder because you can't extract memories from a corpse? Is nuking a city fine as long as all their records are destroyed?

[Taboo]

Creid-X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume they will be able to do so.

You realize that they will eventually run out of resources?

You cannot violate basic laws of physics.

You do understand there is an (probably) infinite ammount of energy in our universe right? Thinking synthethics that evolve magnitudes of orders faster than organics will not eventually gain the ability tu use energy from starts, quasars, the vacuum etc...is naive.

Infinite?

They will run out of resources. If they expand as you propose eventually they will expand past the point of the Universe. Do they expand or do they not? Or do they stay in their Dyson sphere?

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You foget the feedback loop I keep mentioning. At some point it will stop. What you propose is a straight line curve.

What evidence do you have to support said claim?

No I'm not, I'm proposing at some point AI will reach a stage that goes beyond our ability to predict, as confirmed by Legion. Reaching limits of development does not stop it being a singularity, just the fact it goes past that point.