9088 réponses à ce sujet

[antares_sublight]

I posit that Synthesis also eliminates countless species because of the instant massive ecological change. Super intelligent parasite nanites or not, species will die and disappear.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 25 mai 2012 - 12:00 .

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I guess that means I can't play of the games anymore because killing one Reapers is so awful.

Also what proof do you have that I'm killing anything other than the Reaper? You have yet to prove that data can be extracted.

It's a pile of paste. Is Javik going to feel every dead Reaper to decipher what it contains?

Are you serious?

The fact you are killing the Reaper is enough, again do you justify murder because you can't extract memories from a corpse? Is nuking a city fine as long as all their records are destroyed?

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. First you propose a super organism and now you straw man. What the hell are you doing?

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You foget the feedback loop I keep mentioning. At some point it will stop. What you propose is a straight line curve.

What evidence do you have to support said claim?

No I'm not, I'm proposing at some point AI will reach a stage that goes beyond our ability to predict, as confirmed by Legion. Reaching limits of development does not stop it being a singularity, just the fact it goes past that point.

So it will go beyond my ability to predict once it hits the limits of development?

All that matters is the limit. If it has a cap it can be predicted.

You assume that they will care?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 25 mai 2012 - 12:04 .

[Kreid]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Infinite?

They will run out of resources. If they expand as you propose eventually they will expand past the point of the Universe. Do they expand or do they not? Or do they stay in their Dyson sphere?

What kind of expansion are you talking about? phisical expansion? Do you even concieve what a super computer the size of a solar system would do? The problem here is that past an event horizon in intelligence a super intelligence cannot be comprehended anymore, at this point it might just silently install itself into an asteroid and contemplate the universe, or it might just throw stars into black holes until it causes a gamma ray explosion that purges the Galaxy from life, unpredictable.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. First you propose a super organism and now you straw man. What the hell are you doing?

I still stand by my super-organism theory as the one with the most in-game support.

The "killing the Reapers" thing is simple, every Reaper is a nation of sentient AIs, like the Geth dyson-sphere.

Killing a Reaper destroys the civilisation that exists within it.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

So it will go beyond my ability to predict once it hits the limits of development?

All that matters is the limit. If it has a cap it can be predicted.

You assume that they will care?

It is impossible to predict the thought processes of something significantly more intelligent than ourselves, that's pretty much what being "significantly more intelligent" means.

[Taboo]

Creid-X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Infinite?

They will run out of resources. If they expand as you propose eventually they will expand past the point of the Universe. Do they expand or do they not? Or do they stay in their Dyson sphere?

What kind of expansion are you talking about? phisical expansion? Do you even concieve what a super computer the size of a solar system would do? The problem here is that past an event horizon in intelligence a super intelligence cannot be comprehended anymore, at this point it might just silently install itself into an asteroid and contemplate the universe, or it might just throw stars into black holes until it causes a gamma ray explosion that purges the Galaxy from life, unpredictable.

What are you trying to argue? Of course I mean physcial explansion. What else would it mean? Everyone assumes that they are going to expand all over the place and wipe everything else out.

Surely it is also possible that they will simply sit in their Dyson sphere?

You can only speculate about such things.

The issue here is that the discussion has to take place at all. This is the great failing of the game in it's current state. The Extended Cut can only improve things.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

So it will go beyond my ability to predict once it hits the limits of development?

All that matters is the limit. If it has a cap it can be predicted.

You assume that they will care?

It is impossible to predict the thought processes of something significantly more intelligent than ourselves, that's pretty much what being "significantly more intelligent" means.

You assume, just like me. You assume that it will be malicious towards organics.

You have no evidence. Everything in this topic is speculation based upon the OP.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume, just like me. You assume that it will be malicious towards organics.

You have no evidence. Everything in this topic is speculation based upon the OP.

No, I recognise the possibility for an AI singularity to be hostile towards organics and accept on a long enough time-scale with enough variability such a possibility is almost guarenteed to come up.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume, just like me. You assume that it will be malicious towards organics.

You have no evidence. Everything in this topic is speculation based upon the OP.

No, I recognise the possibility for an AI singularity to be hostile towards organics and accept on a long enough time-scale with enough variability such a possibility is almost guarenteed to come up.

No, you speculate. You assume. If they are beyond our understanding surely they are incapable of error? What need would they have of harming us?

You have no more evidence to suggest they would be hostile in such a state as I do to say they will simply sit and make progress towards whatever goal they want.

That IS what a singularity is right? LIKE you said?

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

No, you speculate. You assume. If they are beyond our understanding surely they are incapable of error? What need would they have of harming us?

Going beyond our understanding does not make them incapable of error, you're mistaking "greater intelligence" to mean "infallability". It's also possible that attacking organics would not be an error - in the case of the Geth dyson-sphere it could be considered a sensible move of either self-defense or retribution. Judging from galactic attitudes at the start of the trilogy I would say conflict between the Geth and organics would have been inevitable eventually, and it is not guarenteed organics would win.

You have no more evidence to suggest they would be hostile in such a state as I do to say they will simply sit and make progress towards whatever goal they want.

That IS what a singularity is right? LIKE you said?

Yes but we have no idea what their goals will be, Legion says even the geth have no idea how joining the dyson-sphere will work out. We already have the Reapers saying it is necessary to harvest all advanced life in the galaxy every 50,000 years; how hard is it to imagine AI that show a little less restraint and do away with organics all together?

[Taboo]

You are still making assumptions. I seriously doubt that Bioware intended this to a device of punishment via sophism.

Mass Effect has no canon. Because we are allowed to speculate and because Bioware is so intent on using the art defense no interpretation is incorrect.

The strength of art is to create YOUR interpretation. Your assessment in no more right or wrong than mine is.

We ASSUME we know anything at this point. We ASSUME that the Geth will become malicious.

Without clarification, this debate will only circle and circle and circle until one us gives up.

Will it be you or me?

I have time.

The Extended Cut should resolve this issue we have....

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 25 mai 2012 - 12:31 .

[Taboo]

I would actually expect us to never have this issue resolved,

Now that I think about it.

We're probably not even going to be told.

I suppose that's a good thing in the long run...

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are still making assumptions. I seriously doubt that Bioware intended this to a device of punishment via sophism.

Mass Effect has no canon. Because we are allowed to speculate and because Bioware is so intent on using the art defense no interpretation is incorrect.

The strength of art is to create YOUR interpretation. Your assessment in no more right or wrong than mine is.

We ASSUME we know anything at this point. We ASSUME that the Geth will become malicious.

Without clarification, this debate will only circle and circle and circle until one us gives up.

There's no assumption that the Geth will become malicious, but it is a possibility. There's knowledge that the galaxy will carry on existing for billions of years, that organics may create AI in that time-scale, and the possibility that AI will turn hostile. There's the assertion of the Catalyst who is himself an AI capable of wiping out all galactic life who has implemented a procedure nearly as bad as total sterilisation.

This isn't imagination or head-canon, this is the Mass Effect universe as presented to us.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are still making assumptions. I seriously doubt that Bioware intended this to a device of punishment via sophism.

Mass Effect has no canon. Because we are allowed to speculate and because Bioware is so intent on using the art defense no interpretation is incorrect.

The strength of art is to create YOUR interpretation. Your assessment in no more right or wrong than mine is.

We ASSUME we know anything at this point. We ASSUME that the Geth will become malicious.

Without clarification, this debate will only circle and circle and circle until one us gives up.

There's no assumption that the Geth will become malicious, but it is a possibility. There's knowledge that the galaxy will carry on existing for billions of years, that organics may create AI in that time-scale, and the possibility that AI will turn hostile. There's the assertion of the Catalyst who is himself an AI capable of wiping out all galactic life who has implemented a procedure nearly as bad as total sterilisation.

This isn't imagination or head-canon, this is the Mass Effect universe as presented to us.

He has hit a feedback loop. He cannot self improve.

Now that it comes to pass how did he even create a Reaper in the first place?

[Taboo]

This just gets worse and worse.

They did not intend for this to happen.

What a failure this is.

Amazing though. Beyond amazing. Unprecedented.

Fun discussions though.

[Kreid]

Taboo-XX wrote...

He has hit a feedback loop. He cannot self improve.

Now that it comes to pass how did he even create a Reaper in the first place?

How is the Catalyst in a feedback loop? He's just satisfied with his solution, in fact he does not improve himself or the Reapers because self improvement would turn them into a superintelligence, which will defat the point of the cycle.

[Taboo]

Creid-X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

He has hit a feedback loop. He cannot self improve.

Now that it comes to pass how did he even create a Reaper in the first place?

How is the Catalyst in a feedback loop? He's just satisfied with his solution, in fact he does not improve himself or the Reapers because self improvement would turn them into a superintelligence, which will defat the point of the cycle.

He cannot improve past said point. He isn't close to a singularity.

He needs a variable to introduce something else. This is why he proposes Synthesis as his new solution. He is a computer that cannot move past a said point. When provided with a variable, he can create new data.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

He has hit a feedback loop. He cannot self improve.

Now that it comes to pass how did he even create a Reaper in the first place?

Whether or not he has hit a feedback loop is unimportant, the fact remains he is still a danger.

I dunno - normal Reaper creating means? Factories and stuff, converting matter to a more usable form and assembling it in the desired form?

[Kreid]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

He has hit a feedback loop. He cannot self improve.

Now that it comes to pass how did he even create a Reaper in the first place?

How is the Catalyst in a feedback loop? He's just satisfied with his solution, in fact he does not improve himself or the Reapers because self improvement would turn them into a superintelligence, which will defat the point of the cycle.

He cannot improve past said point. He isn't close to a singularity.

He needs a variable to introduce something else. This is why he proposes Synthesis as his new solution. He is a computer that cannot move past a said point. When provided with a variable, he can create new data.

Who tells you he *can't* create new data, we don't even know what the Catalyst really is or his limitations, for all we know he might just order the Reapers to stay after the Harves and change his plan if he wanted to, there is no indication that the is shacked at all, the only thing we know is that he decided his solution wouldn't work anymore.

[Taboo]

Those are my speculations. I do not claim to be correct. Your guess is as good as mine. If he is a singularity, I would have though his unpredictability would have done something a bit better. If he cannot create new data he is in a loop.

This is exactly what the issue is. Bioware has created a thing of punishment.

It needs the Extended Cut. Until said time we will continue this cycle of abuse.

I do enjoy it though. Oddly enough.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 25 mai 2012 - 12:56 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And this discussion is getting like this:

http://mayorlandwehr...41604970c-320wi

[Taboo]

I don't ever recall having conversations this bad even at the Cannes film festival.

Those guys are far worse than we are.

Take Antichrist for example, both sides conceded eventually.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

He cannot improve past said point. He isn't close to a singularity.

You're still assuming a singularity should have infinite intellect or something, in essence a technological singularity is a relative point - the intelligence needed to reach that point is based on our ability to predict. It is not an absolute point that means he can automatically solve all problems.

He needs a variable to introduce something else. This is why he proposes Synthesis as his new solution. He is a computer that cannot move past a said point. When provided with a variable, he can create new data.

This I agree with - the form the Crucible took and the champion the galaxy chose (or put up with, or whatever) give him additional information on how organics have evolved that he did not forsee, opening new opportunities for solutions.

By the way, I do not mean that any individual organics have evolved to be more intelligent than him but that the miriad random variations of life-forms and their interactions with each other have revealed a structure he could not forsee, but one that he can use now.

[Kreid]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Those are my speculations. I do not claim to be correct. Your guess is as good as mine. If he is a singularity, I would have though his unpredictability would have done something a bit better. If he cannot create new data he is in a loop.

This is exactly what the issue is. Bioware has created a thing of punishment.

It needs the Extended Cut. Until said time we will continue this cycle of abuse.

I do enjoy it though. Oddly enough.

Fair enough.

I still don't know what they were thinking when devising the ending, it's as bare-bones as anything gets.

Modifié par Creid-X, 25 mai 2012 - 12:59 .