9088 réponses à ce sujet

[Veneke]

dreman9999 wrote...

You listening to the wrong part. Listen to the reasons why they think that way , not the fact that they think that. Each one have different reasoning to that conclusion. Those reason are complitly alien to the one Legion come up with. His is  that they simply are an aggressor. They all agree they are a threat but the reason why they choose wht they chosed are different. That's my point.

 
... You realize your argument is nonsense, right?

This line of discussion started because you said 'Stopping synthetics form wiping out organic via singulaty is point lss ifthe synthetic have no reason to attack organics.'

Your evidence for this now appears to be that because almost every organic arrived at the conclusion to attack the synthetics through different means and that these means are alien to legion (and presumably all synthetics). This, you argue, means that stopping synthetics from wiping out organics is pointless if the synthetics have no reason to attack organics.

Trying to form a coherent argument for you I can only surmise that you believe that organics will always initiate conflict with synthetics. Okay, so what? Catalyst said nothing about who would start it, only that eventually synthetics would destroy all organic life. If you take this at face value - see issue of trust - then Synthesis becomes a solution by removing the possibility of synthetics destroying organics. It does so by merging the two into hybrids.
 

BatmanTurian wrote...

EDI proves time and again that
A.I.'s can lie very effectively, even more effectively than humans. Her
jokes themselves are technically lies.  Why is it so hard to understand
that a billion year old self-aware program can lie if EDI can as well?

Asked and answered. Read OP and read any of my (and others) comments on the issue of trust throughout the discussion.
 

Vigilant111 wrote...

1. synthesis effects largely unknown, no assurance whatsoever
2. religion irrelevant
3. plantlife, lets go to subjects that are more pressing
4.
ugh, trust, so I should trust it right, then the destroy option will
actually destroy reapers, button pressed, reaper problem solved, age-old
conflict against reapers comes to an end

Yes.

Uncle Jo wrote...

You
agree with me that by choosing Synthesis, you're letting the Reapers go
away. So wether we like it or not,  they'll be a part of our universe.
You also agree with me, that if they want to start a war again (and they
could, nothing, as you said, can prove the contrary) for whatever
reason we can't comprehend, they'll do it.
And this would make the Rachni war and the Krogan Rebellions look like a kids brawl in a schoolyard...

BTW I find the comparison with the Geth flawed because:

1. The Geth are completely synthetic, the Reapers only partly (see harvest).
2.
The Geth are essentialy pacifists (maybe the most pacific race in the
Galaxy). Their rampage in ME1 was caused by the Reapers (as well as the
Rachni who were indoctrinated). They attack only if threatened.
3.
The Geth are the proof that a technological singularity is not always
going to end bad for the organics. For me it's enough to dismiss the
whole c**p of the Catalyst.
4. The Reapers are capable of indoctrination, the Geth not.

The
most people say that the Reapers were under the
influence/control/trolling of the Brat. Problem is to what extent ?
Where they just tools created by the Brat ? Or where they working with him ?

I know no one has the correct answer. But most of the people here don't have any problem to bet the fate of the Galaxy on it.

I'd like to correct also something :  NOWHERE it is confirmed/proved that the Catalyst is an AI (this is only an assumption, it could be also something completely different...)

 
You assume that the Reapers will care about the hybrids, which is a big assumption but a fair one. What you speculate beyond that is your own business really. There's nothing ingame that can be inferred or suggested as an answer.
 
I wasn't comparing the Reapers to the Geth, I was comparing what the Reapers would do after they passed the singularity to what the Geth said they'd do after they built their Dyson sphere (which OP believes represents a singularity). Oh, and your 3rd point is flawed - nobody knows, not even the Geth, what will happen once the Dyson sphere has been constructed and is functional.
 
Fair point about starchild, though if it's not A.I. then it does beg the question of what it is - Space Jesus is not an acceptable answer. -.-'
 

Uncle Jo wrote...

To put it very simply :

There are 3 choices:

For Shepard, 2 out of this 3 choices mean certain death.

For the Reapers 2 out of 3 choices mean escape/survive (surprisingly the same where Shepard is sure to die).

The ONLY choice where the Reapers die is (with high EMS)... where Shepard survives.

This is oversimplified to the point of irrelevancy at best and intentional misleading at worst.
 

clennon8 wrote...

I think it's as morally absolute as
saying "rape is wrong." Yes, I went there, and I mean it. Not in a way
that diminishes the horror of rape, but rather maximizes the
unbelievable gall of imposing physical change on EVERY SINGLE LIVING
ORGANISM IN THE GALAXY. It is a violation at the most fundamental level
I can imagine. And you can't retro-justify it with speculation on the
ensuing benefits.

No, you do not simply 'go there' to make a point. Have a little dignity.
 

Taboo-XX wrote...

The strength of art is to create YOUR interpretation. Your assessment in no more right or wrong than mine is.

 
This is irrelevant, but I couldn't help replying to it as it is so deeply flawed. Your opinion and assessment can be wrong. If you came out and said 'My opinion of the Destroy ending is that sheep conquer the galaxy' you'd be wrong. No ifs, buts or maybes about it. You're perfectly entitled to hold that opinion, but you'd be an idiot... and wrong.
 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And this discussion is getting like this:

http://mayorlandwehr...41604970c-320wi

Couldn't agree more.

[clennon8]

No, you do not simply 'go there' to make a point. Have a little dignity.

Ieldra invoked "moral absolutism," as if the issue of consent is somehow debatable and/or malleable.  I was perfectly justified to "go there," and I don't regret it one bit.
 

[YNation913]

Here's what I'm thinking. If synthesis expands the possibilities for both so-called "hard" and "soft" skills among intelligent life, do these skills necessarily manifest right away? I for one, don't think so. To me, it's analogous to human potential now; an individual has the potential to either devote himself to being a physicist or being an expert martial artist, but both of these disciplines require time and effort to master; often the mastery of one comes at the expense of the other.

So when we see Joker walk out of the Normandy, I doubt he can, at that moment at least, interface with computer systems at will, but he does presumably have the potential to develop the skill to do so. The actual length of time devoted to the mastery of that skill is debatable. If we assume that diversity is preserved among the physiology of individuals, it follows that individual aptitude for learning, and intellectual processing abilities vary from person to person as well. In such a case, one can imagine that a geth from a future generation will be capable of devoting itself to studying ballet, likely at the expense of developing other skills, such as engineering or creative writing.

Now my question is whether a synthesized being's physiology itself is conducive to the mastery of more disciplines, or does the equilibrium remain at the same level if more complex disciplines require that much more effort to master and still carry the expense of developing other skills?

Modifié par YNation913, 25 mai 2012 - 03:10 .

[Veneke]

clennon8 wrote...

Ieldra invoked "moral absolutism," as if the issue of consent is somehow debatable and/or malleable.  I was perfectly justified to "go there," and I don't regret it one bit.

 
Ugh, he does appear to have done precisely that. My apologies. On a personal level I do still feel that you've gone too far irrespective of his comments.

There are interesting concepts to explore in explaining 'why' you should or should not pick it, but ultimately such arguments are not based on anything other than a person's own moral compass, something that is not going to change through reasoned debate. Attempting to do so is pointless and has the potential to cast people, not just their arguments, as wrong, flawed or not worthy of consideration.
 
When OP accepts turning the thread from a plausible explanaton of Synthesis into debating the morality of it, thereby abandoning the thread's strongest defence against its degradation into a morality debate with no end, it's time to cut your losses. Explaining how synthesis in the ME universe works in a logical manner that makes sense with what we saw ingame is a worthwhile endeavour, EC or no. It's something I believe quite a number of people have immediately rejected considering out of hand because of the moral issues involved and the suddeness of it being introduced, which is wrong. If you don't want to choose synthesis that's fair enough, but you should at least recognize what it is you're passing up. That's the point that should be addressed and was being addressed for the majority of the thread up until now. That's changed and I have no intention of attempting to defend the morality of Synthesis vs. real-life examples or the morality of Destroy or Control.
 
On that note, it's been fun but I'm out. Anyone who I replied to and wants to reply to me feel free to message me.

Modifié par Veneke, 25 mai 2012 - 05:24 .

[dreman9999]

@Veneke 



And your still not listening. You're not getting that the point of the scene was not to show that everyone wans to stop the heritic geth. It's to show that they all have different reasons. The point is to show how different they are and to legions reasons. His reason is just to protect his people unlike everyone elses. You listing to the wrong parts of the scean. Just list what everyones reasons are and you'll understand my point. 
...
I'll add this to prove my point....
http://www.youtube.c...U9i1hA8I#t=119s

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 05:34 .

[Xandurpein]

Going back to the original question of how Synthesis can be explained, there is one thing that I have never seen explained satisfactorily. The Catalyst sees things on a different scale than us. We may differ on the morality of his perspective, but I think we all agree on this fact. He doesn't think in terms of individuals or even entire races. The right of every living sentient being in the galaxy is subservient in his mind to his cause of defending every potential future race. So in his perspective a synthesis option would be deeply flawed if it did nothing more than "uplift" the current sentient races. What about the races that will come after us? History doesn't end with us.

It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

[Vigilant111]

Xandurpein wrote...

Going back to the original question of how Synthesis can be explained, there is one thing that I have never seen explained satisfactorily. The Catalyst sees things on a different scale than us. We may differ on the morality of his perspective, but I think we all agree on this fact. He doesn't think in terms of individuals or even entire races. The right of every living sentient being in the galaxy is subservient in his mind to his cause of defending every potential future race. So in his perspective a synthesis option would be deeply flawed if it did nothing more than "uplift" the current sentient races. What about the races that will come after us? History doesn't end with us.

It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

In another words, no more evolution of life, which is unrealistic, unless the hybrids are powerful enough to withstand enviromental change since new species evolve adapting to surrounding changes

[WindOverTuchanka]

Xandurpein wrote...

Going back to the original question of how Synthesis can be explained, there is one thing that I have never seen explained satisfactorily. The Catalyst sees things on a different scale than us. We may differ on the morality of his perspective, but I think we all agree on this fact. He doesn't think in terms of individuals or even entire races. The right of every living sentient being in the galaxy is subservient in his mind to his cause of defending every potential future race. So in his perspective a synthesis option would be deeply flawed if it did nothing more than "uplift" the current sentient races. What about the races that will come after us? History doesn't end with us. 

 

The Catalyst adheres to a very narrow corridor of values it is apparently incapable of modifying, and yes, his core value is preserving organics at any cost. So there must be a possibility - a possibility - that the Crucible uploaded the virus that has somehow altered the Catalyst's programming, rearranging it's values and altering it's scale. This makes him slightly more 'humane', but not too much - that is, he now values our individuality, both on personal and on civilizational scale slightly more, and the minimization of costs needed to achieve his goal slightly less.

He is now open to the possibility to allow organics a chance to overcome approaching singularity by violently 'uplifting' them. Yet he is not open to 'real' peace through cooperation, helping to distribute the newly found knowledge of this magical nanite parasite without destroying the relays (which would solve both his problem and ours). He starts trusting our abilities, yet he does trust them enough.

He stopped thinking that killing us is acceptable, but still thinks that violating our rights to self-determine IS acceptable, you know, just this once. It's a big step ahead for the Catalyst, actually, the Crucible MUST be responsible for this and we should probably be grateful it worked at all.

He's probably still a shackled AI with faulty reasoning only slightly altered by a device we did not have enough time to properly research. We have to work with what we have, though.

 
It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

Not necessarily so. If organics are uplifted over the point of organic singularity, they get a fighting chance over any other younger singularity, synthetic or organic, by the virtue of being the most advanced race in the galaxy. The Catalyst's calculations seem to indicate, however, that 'our' singularity would not use this fighting chance to simply wipe these upcoming contenders, but rather, intelligently judge their intentions, and, if applicable, gently guide them into whatever ecosystem we might be building over the singularity point. This makes us... the benevolent galactic gods, I guess (...urgh...)

Of course, there are several leaps of logic in this assumption (I, for example, think that organic singularity might as well proceed to butcher all younger races while laughing manically, cause, you know, we've been known to). Not to mention it's a stretch to think that the Catalyst can calculate organic singularity's behavior this far ahead.

But it's one reasonable scenario if you want to make Synthesis somehow better, and it falls well within Ieldra's original contraints.

[dreman9999]

WindOverTuchanka wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Going back to the original question of how Synthesis can be explained, there is one thing that I have never seen explained satisfactorily. The Catalyst sees things on a different scale than us. We may differ on the morality of his perspective, but I think we all agree on this fact. He doesn't think in terms of individuals or even entire races. The right of every living sentient being in the galaxy is subservient in his mind to his cause of defending every potential future race. So in his perspective a synthesis option would be deeply flawed if it did nothing more than "uplift" the current sentient races. What about the races that will come after us? History doesn't end with us. 

 

The Catalyst adheres to a very narrow corridor of values it is apparently incapable of modifying, and yes, his core value is preserving organics at any cost. So there must be a possibility - a possibility - that the Crucible uploaded the virus that has somehow altered the Catalyst's programming, rearranging it's values and altering it's scale. This makes him slightly more 'humane', but not too much - that is, he now values our individuality, both on personal and on civilizational scale slightly more, and the minimization of costs needed to achieve his goal slightly less.

He is now open to the possibility to allow organics a chance to overcome approaching singularity by violently 'uplifting' them. Yet he is not open to 'real' peace through cooperation, helping to distribute the newly found knowledge of this magical nanite parasite without destroying the relays (which would solve both his problem and ours). He starts trusting our abilities, yet he does trust them enough.

He stopped thinking that killing us is acceptable, but still thinks that violating our rights to self-determine IS acceptable, you know, just this once. It's a big step ahead for the Catalyst, actually, the Crucible MUST be responsible for this and we should probably be grateful it worked at all.

He's probably still a shackled AI with faulty reasoning only slightly altered by a device we did not have enough time to properly research. We have to work with what we have, though.

 
It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

Not necessarily so. If organics are uplifted over the point of organic singularity, they get a fighting chance over any other younger singularity, synthetic or organic, by the virtue of being the most advanced race in the galaxy. The Catalyst's calculations seem to indicate, however, that 'our' singularity would not use this fighting chance to simply wipe these upcoming contenders, but rather, intelligently judge their intentions, and, if applicable, gently guide them into whatever ecosystem we might be building over the singularity point. This makes us... the benevolent galactic gods, I guess (...urgh...)

Of course, there are several leaps of logic in this assumption (I, for example, think that organic singularity might as well proceed to butcher all younger races while laughing manically, cause, you know, we've been known to). Not to mention it's a stretch to think that the Catalyst can calculate organic singularity's behavior this far ahead.

But it's one reasonable scenario if you want to make Synthesis somehow better, and it falls well within Ieldra's original contraints.

Ok...stop...really...REALLY. You have no proof of anything you just said. Nothing.
And you missed th point to what the reapers want. If they wanted to give us a chance to fight ageinst synthetics, why us deplomacy with them and mindcontrol with us.(And no you're not using any of your unproven virus, hog wash.)

[Vigilant111]

WindOverTuchanka wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Going back to the original question of how Synthesis can be explained, there is one thing that I have never seen explained satisfactorily. The Catalyst sees things on a different scale than us. We may differ on the morality of his perspective, but I think we all agree on this fact. He doesn't think in terms of individuals or even entire races. The right of every living sentient being in the galaxy is subservient in his mind to his cause of defending every potential future race. So in his perspective a synthesis option would be deeply flawed if it did nothing more than "uplift" the current sentient races. What about the races that will come after us? History doesn't end with us. 

 

The Catalyst adheres to a very narrow corridor of values it is apparently incapable of modifying, and yes, his core value is preserving organics at any cost. So there must be a possibility - a possibility - that the Crucible uploaded the virus that has somehow altered the Catalyst's programming, rearranging it's values and altering it's scale. This makes him slightly more 'humane', but not too much - that is, he now values our individuality, both on personal and on civilizational scale slightly more, and the minimization of costs needed to achieve his goal slightly less.

He is now open to the possibility to allow organics a chance to overcome approaching singularity by violently 'uplifting' them. Yet he is not open to 'real' peace through cooperation, helping to distribute the newly found knowledge of this magical nanite parasite without destroying the relays (which would solve both his problem and ours). He starts trusting our abilities, yet he does trust them enough.

He stopped thinking that killing us is acceptable, but still thinks that violating our rights to self-determine IS acceptable, you know, just this once. It's a big step ahead for the Catalyst, actually, the Crucible MUST be responsible for this and we should probably be grateful it worked at all.

He's probably still a shackled AI with faulty reasoning only slightly altered by a device we did not have enough time to properly research. We have to work with what we have, though.

 
It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

Not necessarily so. If organics are uplifted over the point of organic singularity, they get a fighting chance over any other younger singularity, synthetic or organic, by the virtue of being the most advanced race in the galaxy. The Catalyst's calculations seem to indicate, however, that 'our' singularity would not use this fighting chance to simply wipe these upcoming contenders, but rather, intelligently judge their intentions, and, if applicable, gently guide them into whatever ecosystem we might be building over the singularity point. This makes us... the benevolent galactic gods, I guess (...urgh...)

Of course, there are several leaps of logic in this assumption (I, for example, think that organic singularity might as well proceed to butcher all younger races while laughing manically, cause, you know, we've been known to). Not to mention it's a stretch to think that the Catalyst can calculate organic singularity's behavior this far ahead.

But it's one reasonable scenario if you want to make Synthesis somehow better, and it falls well within Ieldra's original contraints.

Interesting, u are saying organics succeeded in changing catalyst's original programming? It sounds really nice if it's true

...not benevolent, just unbeatable, fearsome creatures

[Shallyah]

Any way you try to explain it, submission to the Reapers isn't a good ending. I'm not even going to judge the questionable moralities of destroying every race and individual's genetic code, when there are races and individuals that prefer to die before getting a simple blood transfussion, there you are altering completely their whole genes, without even asking. But let's forget that for a moment, since the other endings also carry questionable moralities with them. (Such as destroying the Geth, or playing to be god).

Synthesis means that you admit you can't win, so you take a Geth stance on the matter when they too were approached by the Reapers: "submission in exchange for survival is acceptable." You don't have the guts to fight for what you are, so you become like them. It's the dirty way out, the coward way out, and drags everyone down that sink hole with you, even if they did want to fight for what they are. Synthesis is being the little spineless guy that hangs out with the bullies in the school breaks so they don't bully him. It's shameful, distasteful, and repulsive.

My Shepard is much more than that.

Modifié par Shallyah, 25 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[Silasqtx]

Thread title "A different ascension"

Reaper goal = Ascension

Synthesis = Ascension

Synthesis = Reaper Goal

You lose the game.

[Vigilant111]

Silasqtx wrote...

Thread title "A different ascension"

Reaper goal = Ascension

Synthesis = Ascension

Synthesis = Reaper Goal

You lose the game.

GAME OVER, add pacman music bwoy bwoy

[Kreid]

I have a question here, many people seems to think that trying to reach peace between synthetics and organics by our own means is the correct way to go, to which I agree to an extent, but, seeing synthetics evolve much faster than we organics do, what can you do when synthetics reach an event horizon in cognitive power when communication with them becomes unfeasible?

We can now reason and achieve peace with the Geth, because they are relatively young (kids really) in relation to A.I. development and evolutionary process, but what if the entity born from the Geth Dyson Sphere decides 200 years down the line organics need to go away and becomes as dangerous of the Reapers themselves? Of course this might or might no happen, but, are we prepared to take the possibility into account?

[Ieldra]

@Silasqtx:
Why do you think I titled the thread "A *different* ascension"? As if it wasn't pretty clear from the ending sequence that the result isn't *anything* like the Reapers. I'm getting really tired of this long disproven stuff.

@Vigilant111:
Yes, I think the Crucible changed the Catalyst's programming. See below.

@all:
Also, I have seen there was some confusion about the singularity and why I proposed it as the underlying problem of "synthetics will destroy organics". Here's the logic again:

The Catalyst's nature and its reasoning

Assumption: The Catalyst isn't stupid. In fact, it's more intelligent than we are.

Thus, when it says that "synthetics will destroy organics", it can't refer to the kind of conflict we just ended between the quarians and the geth (if we did). We have proven that these need not end in the destruction of one side. This is only possible, though, because the geth are more or less on our own level and didn't finish their Dyson swarm, conjoining their minds into a gestalt mind of incalculable intelligence. Had they done that, they would - so the Catalyst's logic - have become immensely more powerful at a speed organics cannot match. This "intelligence explosion" in a process of recursive self-improvement is referred to as the "technological singularity", and apparently the Catalyst did simulations that showed that this ever increasing power imbalance will eventually lead to the extinction of organics. Compare the way human habitually cause the extinction of "lesser" life forms on Earth, without any particular malice, just be expanding across the face of the Earth.

Not all AIs are capable of recursive self-improvement though. The singularity needs a specific type of AI called "seed AI", and the extinction scenario is specifically tied to the emergence of seed AI. This is the anwer to the question "The Catalyst is an AI; why hasn't it destroyed organic life yet"? The Catalyst may be a super-powerful synthetic, but it is not a seed AI, it hasn't gone through a singularity. It was built that way.

Now to the question: the aftereffects of a singularity are unknown - the term itself is defined by "the equations that describe the state of things break down". How can the Catalyst know what will happen? I have posited that the Catalyst was built by a very advanced species of organics during a conflict with a post-singularity synthetic. That species programmed the knowledge of the observed singularity into the Catalyst before it and the post-singularity synthetic destroyed each other. Because that species knew the problem another singularity would cause, they built the Catalyst capable of learning but not of recursive self-improvement.

Thus, the Catalyst run simulations based on observations - not speculations in a vacuum - and come to the conclusion that "a singularity always results in organic extinction", in the same way Mordin says "Simulations of the development of the krogan always resulted in war." Thus, the Catalyst initiated the cycle.

We do not know the priorities that make it come to implement the cycle as it is. Preservation of the "old life" in some form and prevention of the singularity were the goals. Regarding the means, probably reliability was the primary consideration, at the expense of a gentler form of intervention. Thus, the cycle as we know it was implemented.

However, the result of any simulation can be changed by new information. That's why Mordin could suddenly argue for curing the genophage he had previously supported. That's why the Catalyst was suddenly open for other solutions after the Crucible docked and Shepard reached the core of the Citadel. That's why the Catalyst lifted Shepard up into its chamber and let Shepard choose the future. The Crucible changed its programming - else it would never have been open for options that didn't provide an almost guaranteed solution - and provided new information in the form of "An organic has reached the central chamber. The cycle is doomed to fail in the long term" and "The Crucible can effect solutions not previously possible".

Of course Synthesis is its preferred choice. It's the only option where its simulations show that organics won't become extinct at the hands of synthetics. Control is a lesser option because the future depends on the unpredictable actions of an ascended Shepard. Destroy is a lesser option because the risk of extinction is still there. It *is* an option though, because by having built the Crucible and reaching the central chamber, organics have shown that they're powerful and will - maybe - be able to either stand against post-singularity synthetics or communicate with them on an equal basis.

Note that of course we can't be sure what goes on in the mind of the Catalyst. But I think this is a plausible rationalization for my most basic premise "All [high-EMS] endings are good endings."

Thematic considerations:

Where the endings differ in their thematic approch is their attitude to the nature of organic and synthetic life. Destroy stresses the integrity of pure organic life, Control implicitly accepts that organic life needs synthetic guardians, Synthesis is based on the idea that conjoining these opposites will bring ascension. However, it is "All that Shepard is" which controls the transformation. Synthesis will be effected - metaphorically spoken - in Shepard's image; not the Catalyst's and not the Reapers'. That's why we see everyone basically staying themselves. Synthesis is, in a more complete way than any other, Shepard's ending. Which, of course, means that only those Shepard who associate something good with it will ever choose it. Only for them, the results will actually be good beyond what's necessary to solve the problem.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 mai 2012 - 10:11 .

[Vigilant111]

@Creid-X : then stop building the damn things, if u cannot be assured of whether what you have created will exceed you and threaten you then don't build any, and the evolution does not apply to synthetics, they have technological advancement

Modifié par Vigilant111, 25 mai 2012 - 10:13 .

[Ieldra]

Creid-X wrote...
I have a question here, many people seems to think that trying to reach peace between synthetics and organics by our own means is the correct way to go, to which I agree to an extent, but, seeing synthetics evolve much faster than we organics do, what can you do when synthetics reach an event horizon in cognitive power when communication with them becomes unfeasible?

We can now reason and achieve peace with the Geth, because they are relatively young (kids really) in relation to A.I. development and evolutionary process, but what if the entity born from the Geth Dyson Sphere decides 200 years down the line organics need to go away and becomes as dangerous of the Reapers themselves? Of course this might or might no happen, but, are we prepared to take the possibility into account?

Exactly that lies at the heart of the Catalyst's reasoning. See my previous post. The writing of the ending sequence does an extremely bad job of explaining it though. I hope the EC will clarify....

@Vigilant111:
Stop building them? How would you make sure of that? Just read the attitudes of people here and the assertions of "It won't happen. It's all speculative". If a civilization can build self-improving synthetics, some will build them. Count on it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 mai 2012 - 10:15 .

[WindOverTuchanka]

Creid-X wrote...

I have a question here, many people seems to think that trying to reach peace between synthetics and organics by our own means is the correct way to go, to which I agree to an extent, but, seeing synthetics evolve much faster than we organics do, what can you do when synthetics reach an event horizon in cognitive power when communication with them becomes unfeasible?

We can now reason and achieve peace with the Geth, because they are relatively young (kids really) in relation to A.I. development and evolutionary process, but what if the entity born from the Geth Dyson Sphere decides 200 years down the line organics need to go away and becomes as dangerous of the Reapers themselves? Of course this might or might no happen, but, are we prepared to take the possibility into account?

Well, we're still able to talk with them, and they are willing to talk. AND they seem to value galactic peace. And they are seen offering to help the quarians without being prompted. And both us and them can recognize the danger of unchecked singularity.

So what if we could convince the Geth to help us speed up our rate of advancement, while simultaneously slowing down theirs, so that both organics and synthetics would cross the singularity threshold at roughly the same time? So far, the time is not an issue for them - they have eternity ahead of them, and they lose little when they go slower. Yet they may lose us if they go faster. And they seem to like quarians enough to keep maintaining their habitats.

I know it may sound counterintuitive at first glance, but hey, we could suggest it, and who knows - they might as well agree (not that we ever got that chance, with the ending and all).

Oh, and @ dreman9999: That's a fair point, actually, but weren't your objections covered by Ieldra's opening post? To quote,

Ieldra2 wrote... 
In the end, conjecture and belief rather than evidence for one or the other separate the players into two factions regarding Synthesis:
(A) If you embrace Lovecraftian cosmicism as the theme defining the Reapers, reject the subversion of the cosmic horror story in ME3's ending and believe that what will be lost by the ascension effected by the Synthesis is not worth the gain, that we will not become more-than-human, but inhuman, less-than-human if we embrace this, then you will reject Synthesis.
( If you reject Lovecraftian cosmicism as the theme defining the Reapers, accept the subversion of the cosmic horror story in by ME3's ending and believe that what is gained by the ascension effected by the Synthesis is ultimately worth the cost, that we will become more-than-human, then you will be attracted by Synthesis.

So, if you stick to the view that the Reapers are Lovecraftian horrors, and just need the ability to say "f*** you", there's always Destroy. I do not advocate it's removal from the game, never had, never will.

[WindOverTuchanka]

Vigilant111 wrote...

@Creid-X : then stop building the damn things, if u cannot be assured of whether what you have created will exceed you and threaten you then don't build any, and the evolution does not apply to synthetics, they have technological advancement

AI research is heavily restricted in the Council space, yet splinter groups like Cerberus still dabble, and succeed in making them. There are no effective measures to prevent such research completely, unfortunately.

[Ieldra]

WindOverTuchanka wrote...
So what if we could convince the Geth to help us speed up our rate of advancement, while simultaneously slowing down theirs, so that both organics and synthetics would cross the singularity threshold at roughly the same time? So far, the time is not an issue for them - they have eternity ahead of them, and they lose little when they go slower. Yet they may lose us if they go faster. And they seem to like quarians enough to keep maintaining their habitats.

I know it may sound counterintuitive at first glance, but hey, we could suggest it, and who knows - they might as well agree (not that we ever got that chance, with the ending and all).

That's one of the alternative solutions you could think about. As usual, we're constrained by the possibilities offered to us by the game. I'm reminded of "Why can't we give the Collector base to someone else"? But I guess if you choose Control you could have a headcanon where exactly that happens.

BTW, I like your speculations about the motivations and restrictions of the Catalyst. Rather convincing.

[Kreid]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Exactly that lies at the heart of the Catalyst's reasoning. See my previous post. The writing of the ending sequence does an extremely bad job of explaining it though. I hope the EC will clarify....

It's sad to think that the concept  was touched upon an early draft of the ending script, then it was retired presumably because it would confuse the general public, then it was substituted by the extremely oversimplified "synthetics will always try to kill all organics" *shrug*

Let's hope the EC fully embrances this.

@Vigilant111:I am with WOT in this one, you can see A.I. creation and research is banned, but there will always be someone willing to work on it under the courtains, look at the V.I. in Luna, the Alliance illegally researching A.I. in ME: Revelation, the roghe A.I. in the presidium, project Overlord, EDI, The Geth etc...

WindOverTuchanka wrote...
Well, we're still able to talk with them, and they are willing to talk. AND they seem to value galactic peace. And they are seen offering to help the quarians without being prompted. And both us and them can recognize the danger of unchecked singularity. 

So what if we could convince the Geth to help us speed up our rate of advancement, while simultaneously slowing down theirs, so that both organics and synthetics would cross the singularity threshold at roughly the same time? So far, the time is not an issue for them - they have eternity ahead of them, and they lose little when they go slower. Yet they may lose us if they go faster. And they seem to like quarians enough to keep maintaining their habitats.

I know it may sound counterintuitive at first glance, but hey, we could suggest it, and who knows - they might as well agree (not that we ever got that chance, with the ending and all).

It is a possible solution, but it's mosly based on good faith. We know the Geth as they are now, but what will they be like in 200 or 500 years down the line? How will organics be? Will the Geth splinter into ture Geth and Herethic Geth again with the Herethics not wanting to share the future with organics? Will this spliter group become a Superintelligence? Will organics trust the Geth while they gradually become more and more alien in both appearance and behaviour? Will they feel threatened and try to destroy them again?

Too many questions, too many variables.

 

[Ieldra]

Xandurpein wrote...
It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

That's not necessary. Since apparently at least the organic-origin hybrids still count as organic enough to satisfy the goal of preserving organics (why that's reasonable, I've explained in the OP), al that's necessary is to make sure *they* survive. And since they're now on the same level as hypothetical future synthetics, conflicts between them could be resolved the usual way. Hypothetical future pure organics would be sidelined and it's possible they'll become extinct. Not through conflict though, but rather because fewer and fewer people will want to stay purely organic.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Silasqtx:
Why do you think I titled the thread "A *different* ascension"? As if it wasn't pretty clear from the ending sequence that the result isn't *anything* like the Reapers. I'm getting really tired of this long disproven stuff.

@Vigilant111:
Yes, I think the Crucible changed the Catalyst's programming. See below.

@all:
Also, I have seen there was some confusion about the singularity and why I proposed it as the underlying problem of "synthetics will destroy organics". Here's the logic again:

The Catalyst's nature and its reasoning

Assumption: The Catalyst isn't stupid. In fact, it's more intelligent than we are.

Thus, when it says that "synthetics will destroy organics", it can't refer to the kind of conflict we just ended between the quarians and the geth (if we did). We have proven that these need not end in the destruction of one side. This is only possible, though, because the geth are more or less on our own level and didn't finish their Dyson swarm, conjoining their minds into a gestalt mind of incalculable intelligence. Had they done that, they would - so the Catalyst's logic - have become immensely more powerful at a speed organics cannot match. This "intelligence explosion" in a process of recursive self-improvement is referred to as the "technological singularity", and apparently the Catalyst did simulations that showed that this ever increasing power imbalance will eventually lead to the extinction of organics. Compare the way human habitually cause the extinction of "lesser" life forms on Earth, without any particular malice, just be expanding across the face of the Earth.

Not all AIs are capable of recursive self-improvement though. The singularity needs a specific type of AI called "seed AI", and the extinction scenario is specifically tied to the emergence of seed AI. This is the anwer to the question "The Catalyst is an AI; why hasn't it destroyed organic life yet"? The Catalyst may be a super-powerful synthetic, but it is not a seed AI, it hasn't gone through a singularity. It was built that way.

Now to the question: the aftereffects of a singularity are unknown - the term itself is defined by "the equations that describe the state of things break down". How can the Catalyst know what will happen? I have posited that the Catalyst was built by a very advanced species of organics during a conflict with a post-singularity synthetic. That species programmed the knowledge of the observed singularity into the Catalyst before it and the post-singularity synthetic destroyed each other. Because that species knew the problem another singularity would cause, they built the Catalyst capable of learning but not of recursive self-improvement.

Thus, the Catalyst run simulations based on observations - not speculations in a vacuum - and come to the conclusion that "a singularity always results in organic extinction", in the same way Mordin says "Simulations of the development of the krogan always resulted in war." Thus, the Catalyst initiated the cycle.

We do not know the priorities that make it come to implement the cycle as it is. Preservation of the "old life" in some form and prevention of the singularity were the goals. Regarding the means, probably reliability was the primary consideration, at the expense of a gentler form of intervention. Thus, the cycle as we know it was implemented.

However, the result of any simulation can be changed by new information. That's why Mordin could suddenly argue for curing the genophage he had previously supported. That's why the Catalyst was suddenly open for other solutions after the Crucible docked and Shepard reached the core of the Citadel. That's why the Catalyst lifted Shepard up into its chamber and let Shepard choose the future. The Crucible changed its programming - else it would never have been open for options that didn't provide an almost guaranteed solution - and provided new information in the form of "An organic has reached the central chamber. The cycle is doomed to fail in the long term" and "The Crucible can effect solutions not previously possible".

Of course Synthesis is its preferred choice. It's the only option where its simulations show that organics won't become extinct at the hands of synthetics. Control is a lesser option because the future depends on the unpredictable actions of an ascended Shepard. Destroy is a lesser option because the risk of extinction is still there. It *is* an option though, because by having built the Crucible and reaching the central chamber, organics have shown that they're powerful and will - maybe - be able to either stand against post-singularity synthetics or communicate with them on an equal basis.

Note that of course we can't be sure what goes on in the mind of the Catalyst. But I think this is a plausible rationalization for my most basic premise "All [high-EMS] endings are good endings."

Thematic considerations:

Where the endings differ in their thematic approch is their attitude to the nature of organic and synthetic life. Destroy stresses the integrity of pure organic life, Control implicitly accepts that organic life needs synthetic guardians, Synthesis is based on the idea that conjoining these opposites will bring ascension. However, it is "All that Shepard is" which controls the transformation. Synthesis will be effected - metaphorically spoken - in Shepard's image; not the Catalyst's and not the Reapers'. That's why we see everyone basically staying themselves. Synthesis is, in a more complete way than any other, Shepard's ending. Which, of course, means that only those Shepard who associate something good with it will ever choose it. Only for them, the results will actually be good beyond what's necessary to solve the problem.

Lets summarise your argument: u believe that the Catalyst carries the organics's (those created the Catalyst which now are long gone or combined with reapers) WILL and knowledge of synthetic/organic conflicts, so the Catalyst is intrinsically benign, and when triggered by the Crucible (which the Catalyst creaters also envisioned), the Catalyst will deliver a good resolution and provide guidance

That is one way of looking at it, but anyone could argue that the creaters of the Catalysts programmed the reapers to do violent things to draw repulsion from later organics in order to get the threathening synthetics destroyed, in this case the reapers, not the Geth, cos Catalyst creaters did not know the Geth, also if synthesis is such a good solution, then why is destroy option also included? well now u can argue that its because the crucible was built by organics, therefore its in there

[Vigilant111]

Creid-X wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Exactly that lies at the heart of the Catalyst's reasoning. See my previous post. The writing of the ending sequence does an extremely bad job of explaining it though. I hope the EC will clarify....

It's sad to think that the concept  was touched upon an early draft of the ending script, then it was retired presumably because it would confuse the general public, then it was substituted by the extremely oversimplified "synthetics will always try to kill all organics" *shrug*

Let's hope the EC fully embrances this.

@Vigilant111:I am with WOT in this one, you can see A.I. creation and research is banned, but there will always be someone willing to work on it under the courtains, look at the V.I. in Luna, the Alliance illegally researching A.I. in ME: Revelation, the roghe A.I. in the presidium, project Overlord, EDI, The Geth etc...

WindOverTuchanka wrote...
Well, we're still able to talk with them, and they are willing to talk. AND they seem to value galactic peace. And they are seen offering to help the quarians without being prompted. And both us and them can recognize the danger of unchecked singularity. 

So what if we could convince the Geth to help us speed up our rate of advancement, while simultaneously slowing down theirs, so that both organics and synthetics would cross the singularity threshold at roughly the same time? So far, the time is not an issue for them - they have eternity ahead of them, and they lose little when they go slower. Yet they may lose us if they go faster. And they seem to like quarians enough to keep maintaining their habitats.

I know it may sound counterintuitive at first glance, but hey, we could suggest it, and who knows - they might as well agree (not that we ever got that chance, with the ending and all).

It is a possible solution, but it's mosly based on good faith. We know the Geth as they are now, but what will they be like in 200 or 500 years down the line? How will organics be? Will the Geth splinter into ture Geth and Herethic Geth again with the Herethics not wanting to share the future with organics? Will this spliter group become a Superintelligence? Will organics trust the Geth while they gradually become more and more alien in both appearance and behaviour? Will they feel threatened and try to destroy them again?

Too many questions, too many variables.

 

Yes, good faith, lets keep it that way. If Geth threathens other organics, then they could built some other synthetic races to fight the Geth, this will in turn create more problems, u see, the source of the problem is organics create synthetics to make organic life better in a cheaper, faster, sinister way sometimes, remember Eve was telling Shepard technology ruined their society

[Ieldra]

That's too simplified, Vigilant111 (referring to your reply to me above).

The Catalyst is benign in a way, yes, because it was built with the priotiry to preserve organic life. But its definition of "benign" is different enough from ours to include something like the cycle. It wants to preserve organic life as such, if necessary at the cost of specific civilizations.

I don't know if the builders of the Catalyst envisioned something like the Crucible. It's not needed for the scenario to work. The new solutions are offered because the old ones don't work anymore, and yes, I think something like Destroy can only be offered if the changed programming allowed its priorities to shift somewhat, based on a reassessment of organics' capabilities. If its priorities would still force a reliable solution, then Destroy wouldn't be offered.

Basically: we can trust the Catalyst because the Crucible, which was built by organics' civilizations, changed it. I'm sure that's what the writers were going for. Not sure why it didn't work. I guess were the endings less depressing overall, there would be less "we can't trust the Catalyst" arguments.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 mai 2012 - 11:06 .