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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#1076
Vigilant111

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WindOverTuchanka wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

@Creid-X : then stop building the damn things, if u cannot be assured of whether what you have created will exceed you and threaten you then don't build any, and the evolution does not apply to synthetics, they have technological advancement


AI research is heavily restricted in the Council space, yet splinter groups like Cerberus still dabble, and succeed in making them. There are no effective measures to prevent such research completely, unfortunately.


Yes, it is the evil of humanity, I mean what do you think what TIM's intention was, I bet its humanity's dominance over other races...

Chinese proverb: grasshopper (TIM) happily devouring a catapillar, but does not realise there is a sparrow behind him (Reapers)

Modifié par Vigilant111, 25 mai 2012 - 11:14 .


#1077
Vigilant111

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Ieldra2 wrote...

That's too simplified, Vigilant111 (referring to your reply to me above).

The Catalyst is benign in a way, yes, because it was built with the priotiry to preserve organic life. But its definition of "benign" is different enough from ours to include something like the cycle. It wants to preserve organic life as such, if necessary at the cost of specific civilizations.

I don't know if the builders of the Catalyst envisioned something like the Crucible. It's not needed for the scenario to work. The new solutions are offered because the old ones don't work anymore, and yes, I think something like Destroy can only be offered if the changed programming allowed its priorities to shift somewhat, based on a reassessment of organics' capabilities. If its priorities would still force a reliable solution, then Destroy wouldn't be offered.

Basically: we can trust the Catalyst because the Crucible, which was built by organics' civilizations, changed it. I'm sure that's what the writers were going for. Not sure why it didn't work. I guess were the endings less depressing overall, there would be less "we can't trust the Catalyst" arguments.


Yes, there should be a cut scene where Shepard is married to his or her LI, officiated by the Catalyst

It would be more credible if the purpose to be joined by the Crucible is intended in the first place, otherwise, its just a gamble, the crucible can change the Catalyst in many different ways, there could be 50 options instead of 3

Modifié par Vigilant111, 25 mai 2012 - 11:22 .


#1078
Vigilant111

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The Catalyst shouldn't have opened the conversation by saying "Synthetics will ALWAYS destroy organics", it could have said " the probability of co-existence is low, galactic peace is hard to maintain..."

#1079
xbb1024

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For a story ending that is universally critisized, there is a damn lot of analysis and moral debate...

#1080
Vigilant111

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xbb1024 wrote...

For a story ending that is universally critisized, there is a damn lot of analysis and moral debate...


It is good practice, because one day we might face the same problem

#1081
xbb1024

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The Catalyst shouldn't have opened the conversation by saying "Synthetics will ALWAYS d galactic peace is hard to maintain..."


The game spends a lot of time telling us that life is essentially the same whether made from synthetic or biological hardware, then goes off and segregates them again.

#1082
Vigilant111

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xbb1024 wrote...

The Catalyst shouldn't have opened the conversation by saying "Synthetics will ALWAYS d galactic peace is hard to maintain..."


The game spends a lot of time telling us that life is essentially the same whether made from synthetic or biological hardware, then goes off and segregates them again.


Are you implying doesn't matter which survives because they are all the same? well, the game implies?

Modifié par Vigilant111, 25 mai 2012 - 11:54 .


#1083
The Night Mammoth

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Vigilant111 wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

The Catalyst shouldn't have opened the conversation by saying "Synthetics will ALWAYS d galactic peace is hard to maintain..."


The game spends a lot of time telling us that life is essentially the same whether made from synthetic or biological hardware, then goes off and segregates them again.


Are you implying doesn't matter which survives because they are all the same? well, the game implies


No, he's saying that the narrative establishes synthetic life and organic life as equals. 

Then seperates the two forms of life again saying they can't co-exist. 

Which is bullsh*t that should be ingnored. 

#1084
PsyrenY

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clennon8 wrote...

No, you do not simply 'go there' to make a point. Have a little dignity.


Ieldra invoked "moral absolutism," as if the issue of consent is somehow debatable and/or malleable.  I was perfectly justified to "go there," and I don't regret it one bit.
 


Of course consent is debatable and malleable. We revoke people's right to consent all the damn time - presumably for the greater good, but sometimes not even for that.

#1085
PsyrenY

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

No, he's saying that the narrative establishes synthetic life and organic life as equals. 

Then seperates the two forms of life again saying they can't co-exist. 

Which is bullsh*t that should be ingnored. 


Just because Shepard didn't have the option to ask Legion "Wait, what? What the hell do you mean by "imagine new futures?" or "Wait, what? What the hell do you mean by 1<2, 2<3?" doesn't make those things magically not be problems.

#1086
Uncle Jo

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[quote]Veneke wrote...

*snip*

You assume that the Reapers will care about the hybrids, which is a big assumption but a fair one.
What you speculate beyond that is your own business really. There's nothing ingame that can be inferred or suggested as an answer.
 
I wasn't comparing the Reapers to the Geth, I was comparing what the Reapers would do after they passed the singularity to what the Geth said they'd do after they built their Dyson sphere (which OP believes represents a singularity). Oh, and your 3rd point is flawed - nobody knows, not even the Geth, what will happen once the Dyson sphere has been constructed and is functional.
 
Fair point about starchild, though if it's not A.I. then it does beg the question of what it is - Space Jesus is not an acceptable answer. -.-'

[/quote]There is indeed nothing ingame that explicitely states what the reapers are going to do later. I think, however, that it's a long term consequence especially in Synthesis, where there isn't even a Shep to "control" them. Or you suggest that now that we're somehow like them (partly synthetic and partly organic), they'll stop caring about us ? So we should pay attention to it, since the reapers have a (b)millions lifespan, they're the most powerful ones and have a funny hobby which is meddling with the galactic matters.

Fair enough, I misread your post. My bad.

Edit: I didn't expressed myself correctly. I meant that the synthetic races could actually  peacefully coexist with the organics (ex: the Geth. If you still doubt about their future attitude, I strongly recommand you to hear the Legion dialogues again. Even then, I find them more trustworthy than the Reapers)

Concerning the Dyson sphere:

Legion:
"We will achieve it ourselves, the process is as important as the result". (rejecting by then, the proposition of Sovereign.
"We never wanted to harm organics, we wanted to improve ourselves".

Th Geth (and EDI by the way) are the flaw in the brat's circular logic about the inevitablity of the tech singularity. And yes, it's enough to say to him "Go to hell with your c***y assumptions"


Agreed. Space troll, Jesus/God/whatever isn't an option.

[quote]Uncle Jo wrote...

To put it very simply :

There are 3 choices:

For Shepard, 2 out of this 3 choices mean certain death.

For the Reapers 2 out of 3 choices mean escape/survive (surprisingly the same where Shepard is sure to die).

The ONLY choice where the Reapers die is (with high EMS)... where Shepard survives.

[quote]Veneke wrote...

This is oversimplified to the point of irrelevancy at best and intentional misleading at worst.

 *snip*

[/quote]
I reject the "intentional misleading". I suppose that every one who posts here, has at least finished the game once, know about the ending(s) and has their opinion about it. I never tried to convince anyone that I hold the truth, I'm just expressing my own opinion.
You're absolutely free to disagree with me, but if you consider the odds of survival for the Reapers and Shep (it's still a (big) consequence of your choice), these are the only thing in this nonsensical, ambiguous ending that we're sure of .

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 25 mai 2012 - 01:28 .


#1087
Peranor

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I never liked the technological singularity bullcrap move that BioWare made. Never at any point in any of the games was it foreshadowed that it was going to be a big part of the story.

generalleo03 wrote a great post about it. (sorry, coudn't find the original post)

I don't care about the moral implications of Synthesis anymore. I just want it gone because it's stupid, silly, obscure and doesn't fit the story in any way.

Modifié par anorling, 25 mai 2012 - 12:41 .


#1088
PsyrenY

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anorling wrote...

I never liked the technological singularity bullcrap move that BioWare made. Never at any point in any of the games was it foreshadowed that it was going to be a big part of the story.


It was, actually. A lot of people missed it, because you basically have to let the crew die to get the full story from Legion, but the Geth were definitely almost there.

#1089
Peranor

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....The key points of the technological singularity are that, once created, AI will outpace humans (organics) in intelligence, strength, civilization, and wipe us all out. AI lacks empathy. Scientists have long postulated that the reason human's have morality at all is empathy. We can imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes and thus invision what it would be like. Therefore we can figure out what we don't want to happen. In fact, empathy is so important that a lack of it is considered a mental disorder (it makes one a Psycopath). Since AI doesn't care about us by some intrinsic order of its being, it will view us as just more parts of the universe, like rocks. It could wipe us out as a means to prevent natural disasters, or harvest us as resources. It could even take its main task, such as building widgets, too far and wipe us out in an attempt to optimize its goal. Those are key points that need to be explored for the technological singularity to make sense.


So let me state up front, it is not a lack of knowledge of the technological singularity that has people pissed. Do you really want to argue that the set of people playing Mass Effect and the set of people who have seen "The Matrix" are really disjoint? Come on here. There is a ton of popular references to the technological singularity in all forms of narrative. Movies like "The Matrix", "I, Robot", "The Terminator", stories like "The Evitable Conflict", "The Last Question" by Asimov, "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream". And those are what I can come up with off the top of my head. People playing Mass Effect are plenty familiar with the concept of the Technological Singularity, even if they cannot tell you the name of the concept. The problem is that they were not told to care about the concept in the entire story arc of Mass Effect (even including the end). Let's start with this, there are 3 Artificial Intelligences explored in the main story Mass Effect. The Geth, EDI, and the Reapers.


The Geth start out as villains that could easily have explored the Technological Singularity. In Mass Effect 1, they are villains working for Sovereign to kill organics. Their motives are mostly unknown, and could have easily degenerated into an exploration of the Technological Singularity. However, that exploration all falls apart with one word: Legion. The Geth are not a uniform species of AI's bent on harvesting us (though the reapers are!). They are a civilization. They have internal conflicts, Geth vs. Heretic Geth. They have goals like becoming strong with their own two hands, not by taking the Reapers tech. They compromise said goals. The Geth are an exploration of the awakening of consciousness. Consciousness is considered one of the great unlikely events in Human evolution, and the Geth are a direct exploration of how that could happen. The problem is, nowhere in any of the full Geth story line do any of the main points of the Technological Singularity get explored. Where is the indifference to organics? Sure, they are isolationist, but they aren't indifferent. Even without the morning war exploration in Mass Effect 3, the Geth are not a representation of the Technological Singularity, they are directly referenced as a species that happens to be synthetic, not a representation of a species defined by the fact it is synthetic. By the end of Mass Effect 3, they Geth are fully actuallized real people who make decisions based on information, survival, and empathy. Even more so if they survive, they become full individuals. The presentation of the Geth is one of a civilization comming in its own within the galactic community, not one of an Artificial Intelligence becoming dispassionate and logical. And that doesn't even include the Morning War, which was not started by the AI attempting to wipe out its masters, but by the Quarian fear of what they Geth were and could do. The Geth are NOT an exploration of any concepts of the technological singularity.


EDI is another AI that basically comes to its own within the Mass Effect community. Granted I thought it was kind of a stretch to make EDI the AI you "defeated" at luna in Mass Effect 1, that also happened to give you an upgrade (Booh Yah!). But let's take that as a part of the story, since it was on a main quest. She starts out, like the Geth, as something that could have explored the Technological Singularity. In Mass Effect 1, she fights organics. However, in Mass Effect 2, she is a full fledged crew member. She has a sense of humor, and interacts and grows. Hell she's responsible for some of the funniest lines! "I like the sight of humans on their knees", "This is all Joker's fault. What a tool he was. I have to spend all day computing pi because he plugged in the Overlord.". Comon, you laughed. We all did. However, she wasn't fully unleashed until the end of Mass Effect 2, so she could still explore the technological singularity. But she didn't. Once unleashed she didn't because impassionate, logical, and indifferent. She became MORE human. MORE a part of the crew. A dispassionate AI wouldn't go to the collector base, wouldn't help them defeat them. Too much risk. In Mass Effect 3 EDI becomes basically human, and I don't mean she gets a body. I mean she makes decisions we all do. What's important to me, survival or my friends? Selfishness or Selflessness? Reguardless of her choices, the fact she is making them means she's becoming human. She can even start a relationship for goodness sake! She is another exploration of an AI becoming more and more human.


Notice a pattern here? The Geth and EDI both provide direct evidence that the real difference between synthetics and organics is actually pretty small. They are an exploration of awakening consciousness. Most importantly, they are NOT SCARY. They don't explore the technological singularity in any way. They don't state how AI outpaces organics, they don't show anything remotely like that. In fact, this exploration is completely contrary to the technological singularity. The Techonological Singularity requires that AI cannot coexist with organics. To explore AI that can for 99 hours, then say, whoops can't work is a conflicting theme that makes a bad ending.


The last AI explored are the Reapers themselves. Only they aren't. The motives of the Reapers are not explored until the last 10 minutes. And these people argue that the 14 lines of dialogue at the end completely put the Reapers as preventing the technological singularity? wait, scratch that, a lot of those lines are explaining what the "crucible could do", so its not even 14 lines. If you are telling me you can completely explain the motives of the Reapers in 7 lines or fewer of dialogue, then let me tell you that you are a moron. Also, it takes BALLS to argue that the Reapers are preventing the technological singularity, when they are literally the only AI in the story that could even be argued to explore the concept of the technological singularity at all! They could be argued to represent the eventuallity of that very concept!


Now, I do feel it necessary to address a point here. There are definately side quests that explore the Technological Singularity. The rogue citadel AI in Mass Effect 1, the loki mech saga in Mass Effect 2. However, these side quests don't affect the main plot, and can be completely skipped without any hinderance to the story. If the technological singularity was really an important concept to understand the Reapers, then it should NOT be skippable, and should be forced. If the writer's don't force you to care about it, IE it doesn't affect the main plot, then it is de facto evidence it isn't really important.

The problem here isn't that the technological singularity couldn't explain some of this, the problem is that the story doesn't explore that concept. You are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and they call them geniuses for it. You are a sucker, and I don't care if you take offense to that or not. The narrative of the main plot of Mass Effect and missions that effect the main plot don't care about the Technological Singularity, and if you have to add external information into the narrative to force the motive of the main antagonist to make sense, that is a definition of narrative failure.

Let me also say this, it doesn't matter if the catalyst is a billion years old, and spent two hours recanting all the time's AI attacked organics. The point is NARRATIVE! The story doesn't explore those concepts. It doesn't matter if he *could* know everything, what matters is the story being told. The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.

#1090
antares_sublight

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Creid-X wrote...

WindOverTuchanka wrote...
Well, we're still able to talk with them, and they are willing to talk. AND they seem to value galactic peace. And they are seen offering to help the quarians without being prompted. And both us and them can recognize the danger of unchecked singularity. 

So what if we could convince the Geth to help us speed up our rate of advancement, while simultaneously slowing down theirs, so that both organics and synthetics would cross the singularity threshold at roughly the same time? So far, the time is not an issue for them - they have eternity ahead of them, and they lose little when they go slower. Yet they may lose us if they go faster. And they seem to like quarians enough to keep maintaining their habitats.

I know it may sound counterintuitive at first glance, but hey, we could suggest it, and who knows - they might as well agree (not that we ever got that chance, with the ending and all).

It is a possible solution, but it's mosly based on good faith. We know the Geth as they are now, but what will they be like in 200 or 500 years down the line? How will organics be? Will the Geth splinter into ture Geth and Herethic Geth again with the Herethics not wanting to share the future with organics? Will this spliter group become a Superintelligence? Will organics trust the Geth while they gradually become more and more alien in both appearance and behaviour? Will they feel threatened and try to destroy them again?

Too many questions, too many variables.


Yet, the application of Synthesis for a fundamental redefinition of life itself with totally unknown manner and results onto all life in the entire galaxy is cool?

Modifié par antares_sublight, 25 mai 2012 - 01:20 .


#1091
Ieldra

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Vigilant111 wrote...
The Catalyst shouldn't have opened the conversation by saying "Synthetics will ALWAYS destroy organics", it could have said " the probability of co-existence is low, galactic peace is hard to maintain..."

Indeed. But that would have been too complicated for the dumb masses. "Probability? Me no understand". Players are morons, remember?

Another thing it shouldn't have said was "....rebel against their creators". As if there was a natural hierarchy between organics and synthetics, and the natural state of the latter was slavery. Apart from that, it frames the problem as a regular violent conflict which it can't be.

I don't think I've seen so much nonsense coming out of the mouth of an entity with a supposedly higher intelligence. That we can make sense of it with some effort doesn't change that. I'm fine with extrapolating where it may all go and debating about it, but the plot should make sense from the start without having to add to it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 mai 2012 - 01:36 .


#1092
Vigilant111

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anorling wrote...

The problem here isn't that the technological singularity couldn't explain some of this, the problem is that the story doesn't explore that concept. You are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and they call them geniuses for it. You are a sucker, and I don't care if you take offense to that or not. The narrative of the main plot of Mass Effect and missions that effect the main plot don't care about the Technological Singularity, and if you have to add external information into the narrative to force the motive of the main antagonist to make sense, that is a definition of narrative failure.

Let me also say this, it doesn't matter if the catalyst is a billion years old, and spent two hours recanting all the time's AI attacked organics. The point is NARRATIVE! The story doesn't explore those concepts. It doesn't matter if he *could* know everything, what matters is the story being told. The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.


This is what I have been saying all along, open ended ending breeds speculation, and no one can absolutely be right, as a supporter of destroy option, I just didn't speculate much, I just chose the most logical option without guessing

#1093
Vigilant111

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...
The Catalyst shouldn't have opened the conversation by saying "Synthetics will ALWAYS destroy organics", it could have said " the probability of co-existence is low, galactic peace is hard to maintain..."

Indeed. But that would have been too complicated for the dumb masses. "Probability? Me no understand". Players are morons, remember?

Another thing it shouldn't have said was "....rebel against their creators". As if there was a natural hierarchy between organics and synthetics, and the natural state of the latter was slavery. Apart from that, it frames the problem as a regular violent conflict which it can't be.

I don't think I've seen so much nonsense coming out of the mouth of an entity with a supposedly higher intelligence. That we can make sense of it with some effort doesn't change that. I'm fine with extrapolating where it may all go and debating about it, but the plot should make sense from the start without having to add to it.




I am not sure if it cares, cos like that long post about AI said, it pretty much views organics as objects, so are the synthetics with no mention of cultures, ideas or freedom

#1094
Ieldra

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@anorling:
The geth actually do explore that concept. Start with the fact that they're the most technologically advanced faction in the galaxy apart from the Reapers, which already hints at a high speed of development. Then add Legion's dialogue in ME2 about the superstructure they were building. Then in ME3, they may be individuals now, but they can stilll conjoin their minds and become more intelligent, *and* the Dyson swarm they build was explicitly made to create an intelligence explosion with totally unpredictable results (Legion).
There was more explicit mention of it in earlier versions of the game, including a complete codex entry explaining the concept and references in cut versions of the Catalyst conversation.

So yes, it it present.

What I'd like to know is: why did Bioware cut that? Why did they reframe the problem in a way that doesn't make the least bit of sense any more? Why didn't they use what was actually there to use, instead of what was explicitly contradicted by the possbility of a geth/quarian peace?

I can't say if the presence of the concept as in the leaked script would've been enough to establish it firmly in the main plot as a theme, but at least the ending would have made sense as written.

Edit:
I agree with you that the current ending is an insult. It's definitely not ok not to explain what it's all about and make the players write the ending. It's ok having to speculate about the future, but the writers must provide a coherent scenario to start from. They failed to do that in ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 mai 2012 - 01:49 .


#1095
The Night Mammoth

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anorling wrote...

Let me also say this, it doesn't matter if the catalyst is a billion years old, and spent two hours recanting all the time's AI attacked organics. The point is NARRATIVE! The story doesn't explore those concepts. It doesn't matter if he *could* know everything, what matters is the story being told. The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.


Excellent post in general, but this I wholeheartedly agree with. 

Narrative focus is all about using the Crucible to stop the Reapers. If you thinking about what will come to pass before-hand you might has guessed control would have been an option, but the key fact is that the Reapers are bad and that they must be destroyed. Their motive is unknown, but frankly, irrelevant. They are huge genocidal machines without pity or remorse and they must be stopped at all costs. 

The numerous sub-plots had already been resolved. Cerberus is destroyed, the Geth and the Quarians made peace placing the Geth on the same level as all other life, the Genophage is cured so the Krogan find redemption, EDI finds her humanity at last etc... 

To suddenly change the focus of the entire narrative in maybe three lines of dialogue and force the player to accept it is just unforgivable, especially when the new direction is flat out stupid in every sense, logically flawed, thematically repugnant, contrived, and delivered by the worst character choice I've ever seen in a story.

#1096
Vigilant111

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Its been so long since I played the game, can someone refresh my mind what Geth is trying to achieve in life? I think not even humans can answer this question

#1097
dreman9999

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anorling wrote...

....The key points of the technological singularity are that, once created, AI will outpace humans (organics) in intelligence, strength, civilization, and wipe us all out. AI lacks empathy. Scientists have long postulated that the reason human's have morality at all is empathy. We can imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes and thus invision what it would be like. Therefore we can figure out what we don't want to happen. In fact, empathy is so important that a lack of it is considered a mental disorder (it makes one a Psycopath). Since AI doesn't care about us by some intrinsic order of its being, it will view us as just more parts of the universe, like rocks. It could wipe us out as a means to prevent natural disasters, or harvest us as resources. It could even take its main task, such as building widgets, too far and wipe us out in an attempt to optimize its goal. Those are key points that need to be explored for the technological singularity to make sense.


So let me state up front, it is not a lack of knowledge of the technological singularity that has people pissed. Do you really want to argue that the set of people playing Mass Effect and the set of people who have seen "The Matrix" are really disjoint? Come on here. There is a ton of popular references to the technological singularity in all forms of narrative. Movies like "The Matrix", "I, Robot", "The Terminator", stories like "The Evitable Conflict", "The Last Question" by Asimov, "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream". And those are what I can come up with off the top of my head. People playing Mass Effect are plenty familiar with the concept of the Technological Singularity, even if they cannot tell you the name of the concept. The problem is that they were not told to care about the concept in the entire story arc of Mass Effect (even including the end). Let's start with this, there are 3 Artificial Intelligences explored in the main story Mass Effect. The Geth, EDI, and the Reapers.


The Geth start out as villains that could easily have explored the Technological Singularity. In Mass Effect 1, they are villains working for Sovereign to kill organics. Their motives are mostly unknown, and could have easily degenerated into an exploration of the Technological Singularity. However, that exploration all falls apart with one word: Legion. The Geth are not a uniform species of AI's bent on harvesting us (though the reapers are!). They are a civilization. They have internal conflicts, Geth vs. Heretic Geth. They have goals like becoming strong with their own two hands, not by taking the Reapers tech. They compromise said goals. The Geth are an exploration of the awakening of consciousness. Consciousness is considered one of the great unlikely events in Human evolution, and the Geth are a direct exploration of how that could happen. The problem is, nowhere in any of the full Geth story line do any of the main points of the Technological Singularity get explored. Where is the indifference to organics? Sure, they are isolationist, but they aren't indifferent. Even without the morning war exploration in Mass Effect 3, the Geth are not a representation of the Technological Singularity, they are directly referenced as a species that happens to be synthetic, not a representation of a species defined by the fact it is synthetic. By the end of Mass Effect 3, they Geth are fully actuallized real people who make decisions based on information, survival, and empathy. Even more so if they survive, they become full individuals. The presentation of the Geth is one of a civilization comming in its own within the galactic community, not one of an Artificial Intelligence becoming dispassionate and logical. And that doesn't even include the Morning War, which was not started by the AI attempting to wipe out its masters, but by the Quarian fear of what they Geth were and could do. The Geth are NOT an exploration of any concepts of the technological singularity.


EDI is another AI that basically comes to its own within the Mass Effect community. Granted I thought it was kind of a stretch to make EDI the AI you "defeated" at luna in Mass Effect 1, that also happened to give you an upgrade (Booh Yah!). But let's take that as a part of the story, since it was on a main quest. She starts out, like the Geth, as something that could have explored the Technological Singularity. In Mass Effect 1, she fights organics. However, in Mass Effect 2, she is a full fledged crew member. She has a sense of humor, and interacts and grows. Hell she's responsible for some of the funniest lines! "I like the sight of humans on their knees", "This is all Joker's fault. What a tool he was. I have to spend all day computing pi because he plugged in the Overlord.". Comon, you laughed. We all did. However, she wasn't fully unleashed until the end of Mass Effect 2, so she could still explore the technological singularity. But she didn't. Once unleashed she didn't because impassionate, logical, and indifferent. She became MORE human. MORE a part of the crew. A dispassionate AI wouldn't go to the collector base, wouldn't help them defeat them. Too much risk. In Mass Effect 3 EDI becomes basically human, and I don't mean she gets a body. I mean she makes decisions we all do. What's important to me, survival or my friends? Selfishness or Selflessness? Reguardless of her choices, the fact she is making them means she's becoming human. She can even start a relationship for goodness sake! She is another exploration of an AI becoming more and more human.


Notice a pattern here? The Geth and EDI both provide direct evidence that the real difference between synthetics and organics is actually pretty small. They are an exploration of awakening consciousness. Most importantly, they are NOT SCARY. They don't explore the technological singularity in any way. They don't state how AI outpaces organics, they don't show anything remotely like that. In fact, this exploration is completely contrary to the technological singularity. The Techonological Singularity requires that AI cannot coexist with organics. To explore AI that can for 99 hours, then say, whoops can't work is a conflicting theme that makes a bad ending.


The last AI explored are the Reapers themselves. Only they aren't. The motives of the Reapers are not explored until the last 10 minutes. And these people argue that the 14 lines of dialogue at the end completely put the Reapers as preventing the technological singularity? wait, scratch that, a lot of those lines are explaining what the "crucible could do", so its not even 14 lines. If you are telling me you can completely explain the motives of the Reapers in 7 lines or fewer of dialogue, then let me tell you that you are a moron. Also, it takes BALLS to argue that the Reapers are preventing the technological singularity, when they are literally the only AI in the story that could even be argued to explore the concept of the technological singularity at all! They could be argued to represent the eventuallity of that very concept!


Now, I do feel it necessary to address a point here. There are definately side quests that explore the Technological Singularity. The rogue citadel AI in Mass Effect 1, the loki mech saga in Mass Effect 2. However, these side quests don't affect the main plot, and can be completely skipped without any hinderance to the story. If the technological singularity was really an important concept to understand the Reapers, then it should NOT be skippable, and should be forced. If the writer's don't force you to care about it, IE it doesn't affect the main plot, then it is de facto evidence it isn't really important.

The problem here isn't that the technological singularity couldn't explain some of this, the problem is that the story doesn't explore that concept. You are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and they call them geniuses for it. You are a sucker, and I don't care if you take offense to that or not. The narrative of the main plot of Mass Effect and missions that effect the main plot don't care about the Technological Singularity, and if you have to add external information into the narrative to force the motive of the main antagonist to make sense, that is a definition of narrative failure.

Let me also say this, it doesn't matter if the catalyst is a billion years old, and spent two hours recanting all the time's AI attacked organics. The point is NARRATIVE! The story doesn't explore those concepts. It doesn't matter if he *could* know everything, what matters is the story being told. The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.

You almost got the point....The lastthing your missing is a bit of understanding. Ask your self this....Why do you belevie the starchild?

#1098
dreman9999

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Vigilant111 wrote...

Its been so long since I played the game, can someone refresh my mind what Geth is trying to achieve in life? I think not even humans can answer this question



#1099
dreman9999

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

anorling wrote...

Let me also say this, it doesn't matter if the catalyst is a billion years old, and spent two hours recanting all the time's AI attacked organics. The point is NARRATIVE! The story doesn't explore those concepts. It doesn't matter if he *could* know everything, what matters is the story being told. The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.


Excellent post in general, but this I wholeheartedly agree with. 

Narrative focus is all about using the Crucible to stop the Reapers. If you thinking about what will come to pass before-hand you might has guessed control would have been an option, but the key fact is that the Reapers are bad and that they must be destroyed. Their motive is unknown, but frankly, irrelevant. They are huge genocidal machines without pity or remorse and they must be stopped at all costs. 

The numerous sub-plots had already been resolved. Cerberus is destroyed, the Geth and the Quarians made peace placing the Geth on the same level as all other life, the Genophage is cured so the Krogan find redemption, EDI finds her humanity at last etc... 

To suddenly change the focus of the entire narrative in maybe three lines of dialogue and force the player to accept it is just unforgivable, especially when the new direction is flat out stupid in every sense, logically flawed, thematically repugnant, contrived, and delivered by the worst character choice I've ever seen in a story.

The plot never explores the danger of singulaity. But it does explore conflict with AI's in the form of the geth and project overlord. The plot takes the time to point to the cause of the conflict.

#1100
The Night Mammoth

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dreman9999 wrote...
The plot never explores the danger of singulaity.


Aside from a few lines of dialogue with Legion which are never expanded upon, it doesn't explore the concept of a singularity at all, let alone the effects of one. 

But it does explore conflict with AI's in the form of the geth and project overlord.


It explores conflict with AI's in more than just one way, the Geth are the most obvious though. This conflict is resolved, the reasons why are explored, the sub-plot ends. 

Overlord was an exploration of what happens when idiots like Cerberus try to forcibly hybridise the two, and it didn't end well. 

The plot takes the time to point to the cause of the conflict.


Yep. 

Fear, despiration, self-preservation, bias, just like any conflicts organics have with each other, most of which have been far more destructive than any synthetic/organic war. 

Certainly not anything proposed as the reason for why synthetics might do what the Catalyst beleives. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 25 mai 2012 - 02:08 .