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[Vigilant111]

Thanks dreman9999, so Geth wants instantaneous internet to share knowledge, no longer alone... kinda similar to organic communication (verbal) except with no emotion, and that the Geth fears loneliness

It seems the default setting of a synthetic race is that there is no intention to harm organic, Geth's original purpose was to serve Quarians

Geth does not seem to understand that life happened by chance and is not created

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The plot never explores the danger of singulaity.

Aside from a few lines of dialogue with Legion which are never expanded upon, it doesn't explore the concept of a singularity at all, let alone the effects of one. 

But it does explore conflict with AI's in the form of the geth and project overlord.

It explores conflict with AI's in more than just one way, the Geth are the most obvious though. This conflict is resolved, the reasons why are explored, the sub-plot ends. 

Overlord was an exploration of what happens when idiots like Cerberus try to forcibly hybridise the two, and it didn't end well. 

The plot takes the time to point to the cause of the conflict.

Yep. 

Fear, despiration, self-preservation, bias, just like any conflicts organics have with each other, most of which have been far more destructive than any synthetic/organic war. 

Certainly not anything proposed as the reason for why synthetics might do what the Catalyst beleives. 

1. But that converstion lead to a lack of fear of it.
2.Renncoh and Overlord:whistle: . The other conflictin the game are there to  show that we natuaely have conflict in our nature. The events of Rennoch and Overlord show that we cause the conflict wih synthetics because of our nature.

[Heeden]

Xandurpein wrote...

Going back to the original question of how Synthesis can be explained, there is one thing that I have never seen explained satisfactorily. The Catalyst sees things on a different scale than us. We may differ on the morality of his perspective, but I think we all agree on this fact. He doesn't think in terms of individuals or even entire races. The right of every living sentient being in the galaxy is subservient in his mind to his cause of defending every potential future race. So in his perspective a synthesis option would be deeply flawed if it did nothing more than "uplift" the current sentient races. What about the races that will come after us? History doesn't end with us.

It's not enough for Synthesis to change organic and synthetic life to the new Synthesis, it must remove any possibility of future organic and synthetic life. It must change the fundamental nature of the Galaxy in a way that there can be no future purely organic or purely synthetic life, or all he's strived for is for nothing. I don't see how that is possible, and I've seen no explanation of how it could be done.

The problem is I see is people assume Synthesis means either "symbiosis" or "genetic rewrite", I know people don't like the idea of Shepards life-force being distributed throughout the galaxy as a sort of psychic wi-fi system but when I consider the Asari capabilities to share memories and experiences, the Thorian-affected colonists ability to sense each other, the Prothean ability to "read" the impressions of life on matter and the concept of synthetics living by consensus it was not only the most logical means but also pretty obvious. That could just be because I was envisioning the exact same situation (an AI giving a human the choice between what boils down to control, freedom or "Galaxia" - a galactic-scale Gaia) from an Asimov book.

[Vigilant111]

Another fundamental difference: synthetics immortal, organics mortal, synthetics definitely got an edge

[xbb1024]

artares_sublight:
Yet, the application of Synthesis for a fundamental redefinition of life itself with totally unknown manner and results onto all life in the entire galaxy is cool?

yep, it shows how badass I am.

On the point about the technological singularity, I for one do not suscribe to this idea as a viable evolutionary path for a new AI species capable of learning. Unless a species, any species, came into being with effortless access to every resource it could possibly require, they will need to interact with its environment and optimise (develop, grow) accordingly. Biological lifeforms as we understand them will reach a developmental limit acting on its own and need to cooperate for better optimisation, and in doing so develop empathy. An AI community made up of many individuals would also learn cooperation and develop empathy.

In the case of a single AI controlling many units or a single body/ship/whatever, the developmental path would be the same but more critical because its just one. If the AI started with the capability to wipe out organics then its conceivable it would try that, but it wont be the result of learning but because of someones programming/engineering (not a genuine singularity event). Most likely the AI would not start with this capability, but would need to learn how to get its resources. Eventually it would work out that cooperation dosent result in getting shot at.

[Heeden]

WindOverTuchanka wrote...

The Catalyst adheres to a very narrow corridor of values it is apparently incapable of modifying, and yes, his core value is preserving organics at any cost. So there must be a possibility - a possibility - that the Crucible uploaded the virus that has somehow altered the Catalyst's programming, rearranging it's values and altering it's scale. This makes him slightly more 'humane', but not too much - that is, he now values our individuality, both on personal and on civilizational scale slightly more, and the minimization of costs needed to achieve his goal slightly less.

I think the Crucible has a narrow view of organics' capabilities, getting the Crucible to him and the form the Crucible takes opens his mind to new possibilities for organics to evolve, at that point his predictions become null and his solution is no longer appropriate.

He is now open to the possibility to allow organics a chance to overcome approaching singularity by violently 'uplifting' them. Yet he is not open to 'real' peace through cooperation, helping to distribute the newly found knowledge of this magical nanite parasite without destroying the relays (which would solve both his problem and ours). He starts trusting our abilities, yet he does trust them enough.

Unless you take the control option, in which case we get to keep at least the Reapers and any knowledge they have to help rebuild.

He stopped thinking that killing us is acceptable, but still thinks that violating our rights to self-determine IS acceptable, you know, just this once. It's a big step ahead for the Catalyst, actually, the Crucible MUST be responsible for this and we should probably be grateful it worked at all.

Except we do get the right to self-determine, it's down to Shepard to decide how the galaxy should progress without the Catalyst's plan. It may not be a perfect, or even half-way decent, way of acknowledging organic rights to choose their fate but after all the work he put in to uniting the galaxy if you had to choose one organic being to survive I don't think anyone would be a better choice than Sheridan.

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Thanks dreman9999, so Geth wants instantaneous internet to share knowledge, no longer alone... kinda similar to organic communication (verbal) except with no emotion, and that the Geth fears loneliness

It seems the default setting of a synthetic race is that there is no intention to harm organic, Geth's original purpose was to serve Quarians

Geth does not seem to understand that life happened by chance and is not created

But the poin tis that the geth themselve are point ageinst fearing a synthetic technologial singularity. Synthetics are not the problem.
On the other have organic have conflict in their nature, any conflict with the geth or any synthetic would be caused by organics.

[JBPBRC]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Another fundamental difference: synthetics immortal, organics mortal, synthetics definitely got an edge

Technically synthetics AREN'T immortal, just extremely long-lived. They can still be put down with a good ol'-fashioned bullet or two. Or a Cain. True immortals would survive no matter what was thrown at them.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

WindOverTuchanka wrote...

The Catalyst adheres to a very narrow corridor of values it is apparently incapable of modifying, and yes, his core value is preserving organics at any cost. So there must be a possibility - a possibility - that the Crucible uploaded the virus that has somehow altered the Catalyst's programming, rearranging it's values and altering it's scale. This makes him slightly more 'humane', but not too much - that is, he now values our individuality, both on personal and on civilizational scale slightly more, and the minimization of costs needed to achieve his goal slightly less.

I think the Crucible has a narrow view of organics' capabilities, getting the Crucible to him and the form the Crucible takes opens his mind to new possibilities for organics to evolve, at that point his predictions become null and his solution is no longer appropriate.

He is now open to the possibility to allow organics a chance to overcome approaching singularity by violently 'uplifting' them. Yet he is not open to 'real' peace through cooperation, helping to distribute the newly found knowledge of this magical nanite parasite without destroying the relays (which would solve both his problem and ours). He starts trusting our abilities, yet he does trust them enough.

Unless you take the control option, in which case we get to keep at least the Reapers and any knowledge they have to help rebuild.

He stopped thinking that killing us is acceptable, but still thinks that violating our rights to self-determine IS acceptable, you know, just this once. It's a big step ahead for the Catalyst, actually, the Crucible MUST be responsible for this and we should probably be grateful it worked at all.

Except we do get the right to self-determine, it's down to Shepard to decide how the galaxy should progress without the Catalyst's plan. It may not be a perfect, or even half-way decent, way of acknowledging organic rights to choose their fate but after all the work he put in to uniting the galaxy if you had to choose one organic being to survive I don't think anyone would be a better choice than Sheridan.

1. No it does not. You just giving him a faster ways for him to do what he wants.
2.*SIGH...What does he mean when he says"You will die. You will control us but you will lose everything you have"?
3.You missing the point on how he is trying to control Shepard....Do you not notice tha this is the very first trick the reaper used on organics? Remeber the mass relay trap?

[Vigilant111]

JBPBRC wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Another fundamental difference: synthetics immortal, organics mortal, synthetics definitely got an edge

Technically synthetics AREN'T immortal, just extremely long-lived. They can still be put down with a good ol'-fashioned bullet or two. Or a Cain. True immortals would survive no matter what was thrown at them.

Agreed, not to mention Asari can live for thousands of years

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Thanks dreman9999, so Geth wants instantaneous internet to share knowledge, no longer alone... kinda similar to organic communication (verbal) except with no emotion, and that the Geth fears loneliness

It seems the default setting of a synthetic race is that there is no intention to harm organic, Geth's original purpose was to serve Quarians

Geth does not seem to understand that life happened by chance and is not created

But the poin tis that the geth themselve are point ageinst fearing a synthetic technologial singularity. Synthetics are not the problem.
On the other have organic have conflict in their nature, any conflict with the geth or any synthetic would be caused by organics.

The cause of the conflict is not what concerns the Crucible, merely the fact that a conflict is inevitable (to his mind, from his observations).

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. But that converstion lead to a lack of fear of it.

Eh? Why would I be scared of it? 

2.Renncoh and Overlord:whistle: . The other conflictin the game are there to  show that we natuaely have conflict in our nature. The events of Rennoch and Overlord show that we cause the conflict wih synthetics because of our nature.

The blame for Rannoch is not solely on the Quarians. They reacted out of fear, which is cause of many more destructive wars in Mass Effect's history that don't involve synthetic life. 

Overlord was Cerberus forcing the two to hybridize, with horrific results. That's what happens when you force things that aren't supposed to happen.

[Vigilant111]

I want to know where reaper got their organic nature, has synthesis happened before?

[dreman9999]

JBPBRC wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Another fundamental difference: synthetics immortal, organics mortal, synthetics definitely got an edge

Technically synthetics AREN'T immortal, just extremely long-lived. They can still be put down with a good ol'-fashioned bullet or two. Or a Cain. True immortals would survive no matter what was thrown at them.

But they can be rebuilt and there memories can be saved.

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. No it does not. You just giving him a faster ways for him to do what he wants.
2.*SIGH...What does he mean when he says"You will die. You will control us but you will lose everything you have"?
3.You missing the point on how he is trying to control Shepard....Do you not notice tha this is the very first trick the reaper used on organics? Remeber the mass relay trap?

We've already said that these issues only come in to play if you reject the Lovecraftian horror theme. If you believe the Crucible is just having a laugh at your expense and all of the options are either lies or losing scenarios there's no point discussing the issues.

[Uncle Jo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

*snip*

He's a shackled AI. His motives are whatever his programming says they are, not some diabolical fiend cackling on a throne, no matter how much you wish him to be one for your own 2-dimensional cathartic wants.

Assumption. Prove it.

[Ieldra]

Heeden wrote...
The problem is I see is people assume Synthesis means either "symbiosis" or "genetic rewrite", I know people don't like the idea of Shepards life-force being distributed throughout the galaxy as a sort of psychic wi-fi system but when I consider the Asari capabilities to share memories and experiences, the Thorian-affected colonists ability to sense each other, the Prothean ability to "read" the impressions of life on matter and the concept of synthetics living by consensus it was not only the most logical means but also pretty obvious. That could just be because I was envisioning the exact same situation (an AI giving a human the choice between what boils down to control, freedom or "Galaxia" - a galactic-scale Gaia) from an Asimov book.

I like the idea, actually. Except it's not clear to me how that would be a solution to the problem of post-singularity synthetics eventually destroying all other life. The problem of "synthetics can still be created - why aren't they a danger anymore" needs to be explained.

Also, for anyone who supports the "genetic rewrite" hypothesis, I'd like an explanation how a hybrid DNA analogue is possible and how *that* is a solution to the problem, given that these hybrids would be very much closer to organics in their limitations and synthetics can still be created. 

I'd like to have some alternative interpretations in my OP, but they should be reasonably comprehensive.

[Shaigunjoe]

anorling wrote...

They don't state how AI outpaces organics, they don't show anything remotely like that. In fact, this exploration is completely contrary to the technological singularity.

The only problem with your argument, is that the most important key concept of the tech singularity is that, by its very definition, we really have no idea what will happen once it occurs, wether it be good or bad.  The amount of extra intellitence is unfathomable (if it was, then it would not be such a big concern).  You pointed out some of the more optimisitc views of the tech singularity.  But the negative views were there as well. 

Geth supperiority is pointed out a few times.  The morning war, the quarians flee and survive becuase the geth allow it.  That action is more like people dealing with pests, you are going to kill the pests unless they bother you.  Again in ME3, the rapid ability of  the geth to turn the tide in battle by uploading software demonstrates how they can advance quicker.  The geth would then wipe out the quarians unless Shepard convinces them quarians to not attack.  Wether or not the quarians attack, the geth could easily wipe them out, but they choose to 'exist because they allow it' once again.  In actuallity its the quarians that have growing up to do in the geth/quarian conflict, and the the geth are a much much younger race.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. But that converstion lead to a lack of fear of it.

Eh? Why would I be scared of it? 

2.Renncoh and Overlord:whistle: . The other conflictin the game are there to  show that we natuaely have conflict in our nature. The events of Rennoch and Overlord show that we cause the conflict wih synthetics because of our nature.

The blame for Rannoch is not solely on the Quarians. They reacted out of fear, which is cause of many more destructive wars in Mass Effect's history that don't involve synthetic life. 

Overlord was Cerberus forcing the two to hybridize, with horrific results. That's what happens when you force things that aren't supposed to happen.

1. That's my point...
2.But they are still organics and the results of it would still harm all. If left alone the quarian would of pushed the geth to the reapers. And if no one stoped daved, all synthetic being would destroy organics. Do you get my point?

[Ieldra]

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which is incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 mai 2012 - 02:30 .

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. No it does not. You just giving him a faster ways for him to do what he wants.
2.*SIGH...What does he mean when he says"You will die. You will control us but you will lose everything you have"?
3.You missing the point on how he is trying to control Shepard....Do you not notice tha this is the very first trick the reaper used on organics? Remeber the mass relay trap?

We've already said that these issues only come in to play if you reject the Lovecraftian horror theme. If you believe the Crucible is just having a laugh at your expense and all of the options are either lies or losing scenarios there's no point discussing the issues.

But what are the reasons to beleive the catalyst?What proof does it have?
This is like beleiving a cult lead when  tells you killing yourself will ascened you to live forever in a comet.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

2.But they are still organics and the results of it would still harm all. If left alone the quarian would of pushed the geth to the reapers.

What? They did push the Geth to the Reapers, you know, by attacking them unprovoked. The Geth stupidly accepted their offer out of fear, they did not agree with the Reaper's motives. 

What are you trying to tell me with this? That organics are the cause of conflict? 

And if no one stoped daved, all synthetic being would destroy organics. Do you get my point?

No, because that's not what would have happened if you didn't stop him, and the circumstances are different. Overlord was a hybrid of the two, not an AI or an organic, a hybrid. 

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which it incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

Do you understand that an AI in a post-singularity would be at it's highest level of advancement? And it's not shackled, if it was and it control the reaper, why can't we get it to just stop the reapers with out killing ourselves?

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[Heeden]

Vigilant111 wrote...

I want to know where reaper got their organic nature, has synthesis happened before?

Shepard - by the way he treated both Legion and EDI they learned enough about organic nature to evolve. Both of them even make speeches to that effect. Also Shepard will become the first organic known to enter an AI collective, another sign our cycle is ready to move beyond the "AI will always destroy organics" assumption.

[antares_sublight]

Heeden wrote...
The problem is I see is people assume Synthesis means either "symbiosis" or "genetic rewrite", I know people don't like the idea of Shepards life-force being distributed throughout the galaxy as a sort of psychic wi-fi system but when I consider the Asari capabilities to share memories and experiences, the Thorian-affected colonists ability to sense each other, the Prothean ability to "read" the impressions of life on matter and the concept of synthetics living by consensus it was not only the most logical means but also pretty obvious. That could just be because I was envisioning the exact same situation (an AI giving a human the choice between what boils down to control, freedom or "Galaxia" - a galactic-scale Gaia) from an Asimov book.

How does Shepard's "life-force-psychic-wifi" make plants and Joker's (presumably organic-material) hat glow in the same manner as sentient life?