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[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

2.But they are still organics and the results of it would still harm all. If left alone the quarian would of pushed the geth to the reapers.

What? They did push the Geth to the Reapers, you know, by attacking them unprovoked. The Geth stupidly accepted their offer out of fear, they did not agree with the Reaper's motives. 

What are you trying to tell me with this? That organics are the cause of conflict? 

And if no one stoped daved, all synthetic being would destroy organics. Do you get my point?

No, because that's not what would have happened if you didn't stop him, and the circumstances are different. Overlord was a hybrid of the two, not an AI or an organic, a hybrid. 

1.Yes..... Organic are the cause of all conflict with synthetics. This is why the reapers us mind control with organics anddeplomacy with synthetics..

2. You miss understood my statement...I said that if no one stoped David. That means is Shepard or the cerberus Agents did not stop him.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

I want to know where reaper got their organic nature, has synthesis happened before?

Shepard - by the way he treated both Legion and EDI they learned enough about organic nature to evolve. Both of them even make speeches to that effect. Also Shepard will become the first organic known to enter an AI collective, another sign our cycle is ready to move beyond the "AI will always destroy organics" assumption.

Which means synthesis is pointless.

[Vigilant111]

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

I want to know where reaper got their organic nature, has synthesis happened before?

Shepard - by the way he treated both Legion and EDI they learned enough about organic nature to evolve. Both of them even make speeches to that effect. Also Shepard will become the first organic known to enter an AI collective, another sign our cycle is ready to move beyond the "AI will always destroy organics" assumption.

So technically speaking reapers has no organic properties, they just LEARNED organic nature?
It seems that EDI and Geth want to be more like organics while the reapers want organics to be more like them

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Yes..... Organic are the cause of all conflict with synthetics. This is why the reapers us mind control with organics anddeplomacy with synthetics..

Nope! 

The Geth are one, where neither side is free of blame. The Heretics were the fault of the Reapers. 

There's no conflict with EDI.

The Zha lived peacefully until the Reapers manipulated the AI's to attack.

We have no idea what happened in the Metacon war. 

2. You miss understood my statement...I said that if no one stoped David. That means is Shepard or the cerberus Agents did not stop him.

Nope! There's nothing to suggest Overlord would result in the eradication of all organic life, and even so, it's not the fault of a synthetic. 

[xbb1024]

Destroy option was Anderson's wish
Control option was Illusive man's wish
Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere, and must therefore be the Catalyst's idea. Its what the Reapers are, afterall.

[Heeden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which is incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

Seed AI aren't totally necessary for a singularity, they can also come about generationally where one AI builds a more advanced AI builds a more advanced AI...until they reach the limits of how far they can apply their knowledge and need to search for more data or they reach the limits of physical possibility.

"AI will always turn on it's creators" this is inevitable for two reasons. 1 - as sentient beings the AI desire freedom 2 - organics can not (or will not) empathise with machines. I don't think the Crucible necessarily means all AI will completely destroy their creators and all other organics, but there is a possibility that either every organic race is destroyed by it's own creations or some AI decides all organics are a threat and picks up the slack. Under an AI's cold logic anything that is possible will happen on a long enough time-scale.

It's worth noting that we have no idea what happened to the Crucible's creators apart from his assertion that "AI will always turn on their creations".

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Yes..... Organic are the cause of all conflict with synthetics. This is why the reapers us mind control with organics anddeplomacy with synthetics..

Nope! 

The Geth are one, where neither side is free of blame. The Heretics were the fault of the Reapers. 

There's no conflict with EDI.

The Zha lived peacefully until the Reapers manipulated the AI's to attack.

We have no idea what happened in the Metacon war. 

2. You miss understood my statement...I said that if no one stoped David. That means is Shepard or the cerberus Agents did not stop him.

Nope! There's nothing to suggest Overlord would result in the eradication of all organic life, and even so, it's not the fault of a synthetic. 

1.The heritics action were influence by the actions of the quarians. The reaper just gave them proof to act on the assuption that organics causes conflict and to help the reapers end it.
And there was a conflict with EDI...Remeber the moon base in ME1?
2. If what happen in overlord didn't mean the end of organic life ...Then there is not problem with Dave uploading himself then?
Also, all the geth and drones Dave was controling were clearly not trying to kill me.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 02:47 .

[Vigilant111]

xbb1024 wrote...

Destroy option was Anderson's wish
Control option was Illusive man's wish
Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere, and must therefore be the Catalyst's idea. Its what the Reapers are, afterall.

This is an effective rationale for choice for the time given in the game, indeed, no one ever has heard of something called synthesis until that point

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

I want to know where reaper got their organic nature, has synthesis happened before?

Shepard - by the way he treated both Legion and EDI they learned enough about organic nature to evolve. Both of them even make speeches to that effect. Also Shepard will become the first organic known to enter an AI collective, another sign our cycle is ready to move beyond the "AI will always destroy organics" assumption.

Which means synthesis is pointless.

No, synthesis is a short-cut. Like up-lifting a civilisation to take part in the galactic community it has pros and cons. On the one hand you can make sure a promising young species doesn't accidently go extinct through natural or artificial disaster, on the other hand you are denying them the right to make the journey on their own in exchange for securely getting to the destination.

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

Destroy option was Anderson's wish
Control option was Illusive man's wish
Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere, and must therefore be the Catalyst's idea. Its what the Reapers are, afterall.

This is an effective rationale for choice for the time given in the game, indeed, no one ever has heard of something called synthesis until that point

They did...It's called a reaper.

[Ieldra]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which it incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

Do you understand that an AI in a post-singularity would be at it's highest level of advancement? And it's not shackled, if it was and it control the reaper, why can't we get it to just stop the reapers with out killing ourselves?

We said it *was* shackled. Also, there is a difference between being a post-singularity synthetic and being omnipotent.

[Taboo]

I've come to accept that if said Synthetics were able to learn to coexist they would not achieve such things. They would choose to co-exist, or at least wouldn't do harm to organics.

Each of the endings solves the issue, and I believe now that Bioware did not intend for one to take precedence over the other, based on the Producer's wishes. That is to say, the singularity is resolved in all the endings, but in it's own manner. I can't imagine that we wouldn't have severe restrictions on Synthetics in the future anyway.

To force Synthesis would be inappropriate, I believe we are more than able to come up with our own solution to said issue. Whatever choice you choose, the issue is solved, at least for the time being.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

I want to know where reaper got their organic nature, has synthesis happened before?

Shepard - by the way he treated both Legion and EDI they learned enough about organic nature to evolve. Both of them even make speeches to that effect. Also Shepard will become the first organic known to enter an AI collective, another sign our cycle is ready to move beyond the "AI will always destroy organics" assumption.

Which means synthesis is pointless.

No, synthesis is a short-cut. Like up-lifting a civilisation to take part in the galactic community it has pros and cons. On the one hand you can make sure a promising young species doesn't accidently go extinct through natural or artificial disaster, on the other hand you are denying them the right to make the journey on their own in exchange for securely getting to the destination.

An unneeded shot cut that does nothing to solve the problem the starchild brings up and kills the one person with the deplomacy to unint organic and synthetic life...

[Heeden]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Geth are one, where neither side is free of blame. The Heretics were the fault of the Reapers. 

The Quarians are without a doubt to blame for their schism with the Geth, when they started asking if they had souls the Quarians started killing them. The levels of fear led to a fascist state with both AI and their sympathisers being persecuted and ultimately led to the Quarians losing and being booted off the planet.

[Heeden]

xbb1024 wrote...

Destroy option was Anderson's wish
Control option was Illusive man's wish
Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere, and must therefore be the Catalyst's idea. Its what the Reapers are, afterall.

Synthesis could be Shepard's wish, what with him trying to unite the galaxy and all.

Modifié par Heeden, 25 mai 2012 - 02:53 .

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which it incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

Do you understand that an AI in a post-singularity would be at it's highest level of advancement? And it's not shackled, if it was and it control the reaper, why can't we get it to just stop the reapers with out killing ourselves?

We said it *was* shackled. Also, there is a difference between being a post-singularity synthetic and being omnipotent.

Being at it highest level of advancement does not mean omnipotent. Also, as I said before, if we shakled it, we would not need to kill our selves to stop the reapers. The catalyst says the he controls the reapers, If the crucible shakled it, why not tell he to simply stop the reapers? He's shackled and he would have know way to disobey.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.The heritics action were influence by the actions of the quarians. The reaper just gave them proof to act on the assuption that organics causes conflict and to help the reapers end it.

Yes, a conclusion they wouldn't have come to if the Reaper hadn't contacted them and offered to uplift them. 

And there was a conflict with EDI...Remeber the moon base in ME1?

Yes, a VI that reacted out of fear upon becoming self-aware because she thought the combat simulations were humans attacking it. It doesn't support your claim. 

2. If what happen in overlord didn't mean the end of organic life ...Then there is not problem with Dave uploading himself then?

Ignoring, again, that it was a hybrid, and not a synthetic.

[Ieldra]

Heeden wrote...
Seed AI aren't totally necessary for a singularity, they can also come about generationally where one AI builds a more advanced AI builds a more advanced AI...until they reach the limits of how far they can apply their knowledge and need to search for more data or they reach the limits of physical possibility.

Point conceded, but the important point is that if an AI is not capable of self-improvement, that *also* means there it has code it cannot reprogram. Which means that it can have priorities built into it by its creators it cannot brush aside. A directive "Do not build another AI more capable than you or without the same unchangeable priorities " would be a very reasonable precaution made by organics about to be destroyed by post-singularity synthetics.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

Destroy option was Anderson's wish
Control option was Illusive man's wish
Synthesis seems to come out of nowhere, and must therefore be the Catalyst's idea. Its what the Reapers are, afterall.

Synthesis could be Shepard's wish, what with him trying to solve the galaxy and all.

No, Shepards wish is to destory the reapers. Even the star child points it out.

[Uncle Jo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which is incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

The whole "the Catalyst is an AI" is an assumption. I challenge anyone to find anything ingame or in the codex or whoever that confirms/proves it. And I'm not saying that he's a Space God...

Headcannon. And if I follow your logic, he's basically... lying. Thanks to fuel my own argumentation.

[The Night Mammoth]

Heeden wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Geth are one, where neither side is free of blame. The Heretics were the fault of the Reapers. 

The Quarians are without a doubt to blame for their schism with the Geth, when they started asking if they had souls the Quarians started killing them. The levels of fear led to a fascist state with both AI and their sympathisers being persecuted and ultimately led to the Quarians losing and being booted off the planet.

Partially, but it was Sovereign who influenced the Geth with the prospect of being uplifted. They would have remained in the Veil without the Reaper coming along. 

[Heeden]

antares_sublight wrote...

How does Shepard's "life-force-psychic-wifi" make plants and Joker's (presumably organic-material) hat glow in the same manner as sentient life?

The same way all the other space-magic makes glowy effects everywhere - the need to portray forces in a way that is visually apparent.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which it incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

Do you understand that an AI in a post-singularity would be at it's highest level of advancement? And it's not shackled, if it was and it control the reaper, why can't we get it to just stop the reapers with out killing ourselves?

We said it *was* shackled. Also, there is a difference between being a post-singularity synthetic and being omnipotent.

I don't think the hybrids will be as powerful as the Catalyst implies, that is just an assumption, hybrids are probably arrogant enough to produce more synthetics cos they got nothing to fear

Also, when new organic life forms, do hybrids eradicate them just like the reapers? even after synthesis?

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.The heritics action were influence by the actions of the quarians. The reaper just gave them proof to act on the assuption that organics causes conflict and to help the reapers end it.

Yes, a conclusion they wouldn't have come to if the Reaper hadn't contacted them and offered to uplift them. 

And there was a conflict with EDI...Remeber the moon base in ME1?

Yes, a VI that reacted out of fear upon becoming self-aware because she thought the combat simulations were humans attacking it. It doesn't support your claim. 

2. If what happen in overlord didn't mean the end of organic life ...Then there is not problem with Dave uploading himself then?

Ignoring, again, that it was a hybrid, and not a synthetic.

1.That concloition would have happen when the quarians attacked them agein.
2.Yes, it does. It another example of an AI fighting organics because organics attacked it first. 
3.You ignoring the fact that he still control syntetics anywayand we still have a synthetic up rising.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Heeden wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Geth are one, where neither side is free of blame. The Heretics were the fault of the Reapers. 

The Quarians are without a doubt to blame for their schism with the Geth, when they started asking if they had souls the Quarians started killing them. The levels of fear led to a fascist state with both AI and their sympathisers being persecuted and ultimately led to the Quarians losing and being booted off the planet.

Partially, but it was Sovereign who influenced the Geth with the prospect of being uplifted. They would have remained in the Veil without the Reaper coming along. 

But the qurians would still pushed them to conflict any ways.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 03:01 .