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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#1151
dreman9999

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Uncle Jo wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Uncle Jo:
If the Catalyst was a post-singularity synthetic, an evolved seed AI, it would have, by its own reasoning, destroyed organic life instead of trying to preserve it. Thus, in order to not contradict itself, it must be an AI that can learn, but which is incapable of the recursive self-improvement of a seed AI. Optimystic_X calls that "shackled" since there is a part of itself that it cannot reprogram.

The whole "the Catalyst is an AI" is an assumption. I challenge anyone to find anything ingame or in the codex or whoever that confirms/proves it. And I'm not saying that he's a Space God...

Headcannon. And if I follow your logic, he's basically... lying. Thanks to fuel my own argumentation.





VI'S don't have emotions...
http://masseffect.wi...al_Intelligence 
The catalyst does....:whistle:

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 03:00 .


#1152
PsyrenY

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anorling wrote...

....The key points of the technological singularity are that, once created, AI will outpace humans (organics) in intelligence, strength, civilization, and wipe us all out. AI lacks empathy. Scientists have long postulated that the reason human's have morality at all is empathy. We can imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes and thus invision what it would be like. Therefore we can figure out what we don't want to happen. In fact, empathy is so important that a lack of it is considered a mental disorder (it makes one a Psycopath). Since AI doesn't care about us by some intrinsic order of its being, it will view us as just more parts of the universe, like rocks. It could wipe us out as a means to prevent natural disasters, or harvest us as resources. It could even take its main task, such as building widgets, too far and wipe us out in an attempt to optimize its goal. Those are key points that need to be explored for the technological singularity to make sense.


With you so far.

anorling wrote... 
So let me state up front, it is not a lack of knowledge of the technological singularity that has people pissed. 
...
Notice a pattern here? The Geth and EDI both provide direct evidence that the real difference between synthetics and organics is actually pretty small. They are an exploration of awakening consciousness. Most importantly, they are NOT SCARY. They don't explore the technological singularity in any way. They don't state how AI outpaces organics, they don't show anything remotely like that. In fact, this exploration is completely contrary to the technological singularity. The Techonological Singularity requires that AI cannot coexist with organics. To explore AI that can for 99 hours, then say, whoops can't work is a conflicting theme that makes a bad ending.


A poor exploration is not the same as no exploration at all. I particularly disagree with the bolded portion but I'll address that below.

anorling wrote...  
Now, I do feel it necessary to address a point here. There are definately side quests that explore the Technological Singularity. The rogue citadel AI in Mass Effect 1, the loki mech saga in Mass Effect 2. However, these side quests don't affect the main plot, and can be completely skipped without any hinderance to the story. If the technological singularity was really an important concept to understand the Reapers, then it should NOT be skippable, and should be forced. If the writer's don't force you to care about it, IE it doesn't affect the main plot, then it is de facto evidence it isn't really important.

The problem here isn't that the technological singularity couldn't explain some of this, the problem is that the story doesn't explore that concept. You are literally telling the writer's of Mass Effect that it is okay to NOT tell you the story, that you will fill in the blanks that are missing to force it to make sence, and they call them geniuses for it. You are a sucker, and I don't care if you take offense to that or not. The narrative of the main plot of Mass Effect and missions that effect the main plot don't care about the Technological Singularity, and if you have to add external information into the narrative to force the motive of the main antagonist to make sense, that is a definition of narrative failure.


Listen. Listen.

I agree with you. The narrative was very poorly executed.

But I don't consider my willingness to salvage the good from what we did get "being a sucker." I support clarification, so I am in no way telling them it is "okay not to tell me the story."

The point of threads like these is to show how Bioware can improve the endings without sacrificing their artistic vision. It is not binary, it is not a zero-sum game. We can all walk away from this more at peace with the endings, better able to understand one another, and better able to understand Bioware.

I walked into the Conduit knowing that the villains (Reapers) might actually have a point. Not one that would have made our extinction justifiable, but one that would make destroying them a difficult choice. The narrative delivered on that expectation for me tenfold.

And then I got to really thinking about Legion's dialogue in ME2. How easily the Heretics switched gears from "non-interference and self-preservation" to "slaughter organics." How easily the Geth surpassed all of us, even supergeniuses like the Salarians and cheaters like the Asari. How even they don't know what effect their ascension will have, rendering their current empathy toward us meaningless.

Our only chance, in the long term, is a level playing field. We have to be able to keep pace with them, so that the next set of Heretics doesn't extinguish us in passing. Synthesis provides that field.

anorling wrote...   
The technological singularity does not belong as a part of the ending to Mass Effect. This is why the Extended Cut will suck. There needs to be complete thematic rewrite to the end to force it to make sense. Either that, or a complete rewrite of the other 99 hours of Mass Effect.


A rewrite to play up the singularity, however beneficial it would be, is simply infeasible at this juncture. In a perfect world it would be doable, but we don't live in one.

#1153
Heeden

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dreman9999 wrote...
No, Shepards wish is to destory the reapers. Even the star child points it out.


Not if I add an extra level of riddles to this :-P

Throughout the conversation with Catalyst I couldn't decide when he was using the singular "you" - meaning Shepard himself - and the group "you" - referring to all the people following him (roughly arranged in a single "platform").

Remember Legion explaining how he found it difficult distinguishing between crew members and the ship? To an AI the Normandy was a platform and each individual was part of that platform, so addressing one should be like addressing the whole.

So when the Catalyst says "you want to destroy the Reapers" he could mean that is the aim of the attack-force, not necessarily the will of the individual (besides the player decides what Shepard does and doesn't want, by that point they could be firmly decided on Control).

#1154
I_am_a_Spoon

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@OP: Haven't read all 43 pages... and waaaaay too long a post to address every point you made, but I'll pick out a select few quotes since I found a lot of what you said interesting and well-written. I try to be open-minded. :D



Nonetheless, what remains – a few words and the imagery of the ending sequences – suggests that Synthesis is a good ending. This is also supported by meta-level arguments about the Catalyst. While the question "Is it justifiable to force such a change on the galaxy?" must be addressed by anyone who makes this their preferred choice, calling the Synthesis "horrific" or "evil" is grounded in false assumptions which are usually the result of association fallacies. We are shown results. I can see nothing evil in those images, only something that has been called "a strange, alien beauty" (jtav in her fanfic "Brave New World). The incoherence of the exposition is exacerbated by the imagery in other places, though, so that it is easy to dismiss the whole notion as silly and nonsensical if you dislike it for unrelated reasons.

The first time around I decided to go with Synthesis (viewpoint B basically). I'll admit, I wasn't quite sure what it would actually involve (as you said, the preceding dialogue by the Catalyst was inadequate), but I felt that suspicion of such an action for suspicion's sake, or just an underlying personal hatred of "biological impurities", would be unwarranted and unwise. I thought that it would prove a moral middle-ground, facilitating galactic peace and equality at the cost of complete molecular renaturing of all organics and synthetics (not inherently a bad thing either). Like you, the physical forms such life would take didn't really put me off, and according to the Synthesis cutscene such fears are unfounded anyway).

However, like me, I think that most people now distrust the Synthesis ending due to its contextual relevance. There are precedents, for example, the conversion of organic lifeforms (Humans, Batarians, Turians, Asari, etc) into hybrid Reaper forms; a process that doesn't ultimately result in a superior lifeform, but a perversion of sapient life as we comprehend it, lacking our most basic and valued instincts and qualities (higher reasoning, freedom of action and thought, emotion, etc). Such hybrids could never constitute an advanced civilisation or society, could never develop culture, art, music, literature, science... they are a reduced form of life, not an advanced one.

Saren also serves to foreshadow this train of thought, convinced that anything but cooperation and possibly eventual amalgamation is futile. Note that he is indoctrinated, serving no goals but those of the Reapers at this point in time.

And even though there's no evidence to support the Synthesis option resulting in Reaper-esque hybrids, I also doubt the cinematic at the end. It can't be real, that is almost a fact. IMO whatever we see as a result (overlayed lines basically) is simply Shepard's interpretation of Synthesis, not the reality of it. We've seen Synthesis, and we've fought it every step of the way. Don't assume that they're abiding by your definitions of "organic" or "synthetic", they aren't. Nanotechnogy, cybernetics, emotive reprogramming... none of it is certain. We aren't aware of the exact processes it would entail.



The Catalyst is more intelligent and knowledgeable than we are.

The Catalyst does not lie.

Where the Catalyst's exposition appear to be not just based on too little evidence, but outright ridiculous, this is because it thinks Shepard is stupid.


I will agree with anyone who claims that there is insufficient exposition about the organic/synthetic problem, the Catalyst's nature and the effects of the three choices, and that this is *the* major flaw of the ending sequence, but I do not think a rejection of any of the choices based on distrust of the Catalyst only is valid. Rather, distrust of the Catalyst is, in almost all cases, an *excuse* to reject a choice one does not like for unrelated reasons.

There isn't enough exposition, I agree totally. It pissed me off, my inability to ask questions, to go into further depth, to fully evaluate my options before undertaking such a massive decision.

But I would disagree that in most cases, distrust of the Catalyst is unwarranted. While I won't deny that it would be foolish to consider Shepard (or oneself) more intelligent than a Reaper, I wouldn't say that it isn't a liar, or condescending.

For a start, it lies about (or is unaware of) developments such as the resolution of conflict and newfound cooperation between Quarians and Geth (organics and synthetics), and the lethality of the Destroy option (it heavily implies that Shepard is part synthetic and will suffer the consequences, which is either a lie, an attempt as misdirection, or evidence that it isn't as knowledgeable as we might think).

I don't think our interpretation should be binary (as in, the Catalyst is either 100% lying or 100% telling the truth), and personally chose to intepret what it says as I would the words of another human being. Somewhat factual, somewhat fabrication, a combination of selective truth and occasional misdirection.

The Catalyst, to many, appears to have an agenda. I totally agree. It attempts to paint the Destroy option in a bad light, and insists that Control and Synthesis are preferable. Obviously it has self-preservation in mind. That's understandable, I can empathise with that. At face value I would even agree with it (which is why I first chose Synthesis).
However, you have to remember that you're talking to a Reaper, or at least an entity closely aligned with the Reapers. Like I said before, there are precedents for these options. The Illusive Man (Control) and Saren (Synthesis), for example. And like I said before, both were indoctrinated...

In fact, this is one of the biggest indicators to me that not all is as it seems. Even if IT isn't correct, I totally believe that the Catalyst is attempting to subvert Shepard in some way at this point in the game. It seems related to what you mentioned about the Reapers believing themselves the pinnacle of evolution, and through their interpretation of ascension preventing any other form of high development (or "cosmicism", as you put it). The Catalyst wants to remain in control of galactic proceedings (for whatever purpose, don't believe his "organic/synthetic cycle" bull**** for a second), and Shepard is the key...

Modifié par I_am_a_Spoon, 25 mai 2012 - 03:04 .


#1155
Heeden

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Vigilant111 wrote...

So technically speaking reapers has no organic properties, they just LEARNED organic nature?
It seems that EDI and Geth want to be more like organics while the reapers want organics to be more like them


That's what I figured, kinda. I actually think the Reapers just want the organics to settle down and be harvested so they can go back to doing whatever they do out beyond the rim.

EDI and the Geth represent a new evolution of synthetics in the same way Shepard manages to herald a new evolution of organics. The Reapers, whilst technologically way in advance of the Geth, are not as developed sentientally(?!). They still consider themselves a "we" whereas Legion managed to transcend that to become an "I".

#1156
dreman9999

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Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No, Shepards wish is to destory the reapers. Even the star child points it out.


Not if I add an extra level of riddles to this :-P

Throughout the conversation with Catalyst I couldn't decide when he was using the singular "you" - meaning Shepard himself - and the group "you" - referring to all the people following him (roughly arranged in a single "platform").

Remember Legion explaining how he found it difficult distinguishing between crew members and the ship? To an AI the Normandy was a platform and each individual was part of that platform, so addressing one should be like addressing the whole.

So when the Catalyst says "you want to destroy the Reapers" he could mean that is the aim of the attack-force, not necessarily the will of the individual (besides the player decides what Shepard does and doesn't want, by that point they could be firmly decided on Control).

The line is "I know you thought about destroying us." 
http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=171s
And shepard clearly thought about destorying the reapers.

#1157
The Night Mammoth

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dreman9999 wrote...
1.That concloition would have happen when the quarians attacked them agein.


How do you know? Complete speculation, they would have been part of the Geth consensus, they chose the leave the Veil and attack other organics unprovoked because Sovereign persuaded them, that's the point. Without it there would be no heretics. 

2.Yes, it does. It another example of an AI fighting organics because organics attacked it first.


NOPE! It's an example of a VI that gained some semblence of self-awareness killing all soldiers on Luna because it mistook the training simulations for attacks against it.

3.You ignoring the fact that he still control syntetics anywayand we still have a synthetic up rising.


He wouldn't have controlled the Geth, and what exactly it would have done with control over other systems is unknown. 

And this was also the work of a HYBRID enslaving other synthetics, not synthetics acting of their own accord. 

#1158
antares_sublight

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Stopping a singularity was never the goal of Shepard or the game. Not even at the end of the credits does it say anything about a singularity, this is not the point of the series.

It says:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."

Not:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by thwarting a hypothetical future synthetic singularity threat."

#1159
dreman9999

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.That concloition would have happen when the quarians attacked them agein.


How do you know? Complete speculation, they would have been part of the Geth consensus, they chose the leave the Veil and attack other organics unprovoked because Sovereign persuaded them, that's the point. Without it there would be no heretics. 

2.Yes, it does. It another example of an AI fighting organics because organics attacked it first.


NOPE! It's an example of a VI that gained some semblence of self-awareness killing all soldiers on Luna because it mistook the training simulations for attacks against it.

3.You ignoring the fact that he still control syntetics anywayand we still have a synthetic up rising.


He wouldn't have controlled the Geth, and what exactly it would have done with control over other systems is unknown. 

And this was also the work of a HYBRID enslaving other synthetics, not synthetics acting of their own accord. 

1. It's a speculation that the quarian if left alone would attack the geth and no oher race would try to control the geth?
2. A VI that gains awarness is an AI. Example"The Geth.
3.Who said anything about synthetics have to act on their own? The only thing that need to be acknolege is that synthetics are attacking organics.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 mai 2012 - 03:14 .


#1160
VRtheTrooper

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Taboo-XX wrote...

This is essentially what you propose:

Posted Image

Complexity is self-limiting. It WILL stop.

Synthesis proposes that point.

What is the point in existing if I cannot improve?

You CANNOT violate basic laws of the Universe.


What basic laws do you pertain to in this instance?

#1161
xbb1024

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Optimystic_X wrote:
Our only chance, in the long term, is a level playing field. We have to be able to keep pace with them, so that the ne passing. Synthesis provides that field.


The fear of being surpassed should not just be directed at synthetic races. Similarly, an idea like the genophage by an advanced irganic race would be equally terrifying.

#1162
Heeden

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

How do you know? Complete speculation, they would have been part of the Geth consensus, they chose the leave the Veil and attack other organics unprovoked because Sovereign persuaded them, that's the point. Without it there would be no heretics.


I don't think it is speculation to say the Quarians were going to attack the Geth eventually, heretics or no heretics. It's pretty much all they bang on about, Keelah'Selai and all that.

NOPE! It's an example of a VI that gained some semblence of self-awareness killing all soldiers on Luna because it mistook the training simulations for attacks against it.


Isn't the semblence of self-awareness the difference between VI and AI?

And this was also the work of a HYBRID enslaving other synthetics, not synthetics acting of their own accord. 


The idea of a hybrid doesn't have any basis (I know of) in the game. Reaper bodies may contain parts of organics but I don't think they are instrumental in the workings of a Reaper any more than the exhibits in a museum affect the way it functions as a building.

#1163
The Night Mammoth

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dreman9999 wrote...

1. It's a speculation that the quarian if left alone would attack the geth and no oher race would try to control the geth?


It's speculation to assume the Heretics would exist without Nazara and its influence. 

2. A VI that gains awarness is an AI. Example"The Geth.


Irrelevant. The reasons for the event do not support your point. 

3.Who said anything about synthetics have to act on their own? The only thing that need to be acknolege is that synthetics are attacking organics.


I acknowledge synthetics are attacking organics, or would in this instance. 

I, unlike you, acknowledge the reason why, which is the involuntary control of a hybrid of organic and synthetic.

This does not support synthetics trying to wipe out all organics. Nothing does. 

#1164
PsyrenY

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antares_sublight wrote...

Stopping a singularity was never the goal of Shepard or the game. Not even at the end of the credits does it say anything about a singularity, this is not the point of the series.

It says:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."

Not:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by thwarting a hypothetical future synthetic singularity threat."


That's because two of the endings don't do that.

#1165
Taboo

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I am relating to the idea that hyperbolic growth is not a predictor of a singularity.

You'll hit a feedback loop eventually.

You'll also need resources.

Because we cannot predict what the Geth would do, I assume that they would expand until they run out of resources.

You cannot violate basic laws of physics to create matter from nothing.

I addresed this with the nanites with Synthesis as well. Eventually they will no longer have anything to create energy from.

Unless of course, they create a perpetual motion machine.

LOL

#1166
The Night Mammoth

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Heeden wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

How do you know? Complete speculation, they would have been part of the Geth consensus, they chose the leave the Veil and attack other organics unprovoked because Sovereign persuaded them, that's the point. Without it there would be no heretics.


I don't think it is speculation to say the Quarians were going to attack the Geth eventually, heretics or no heretics. It's pretty much all they bang on about, Keelah'Selai and all that.


It's speculation to assume the Heretics would exist without Nazara.

NOPE! It's an example of a VI that gained some semblence of self-awareness killing all soldiers on Luna because it mistook the training simulations for attacks against it.


Isn't the semblence of self-awareness the difference between VI and AI?


Yes, but it's not the point I was making. 

And this was also the work of a HYBRID enslaving other synthetics, not synthetics acting of their own accord. 


The idea of a hybrid doesn't have any basis (I know of) in the game. Reaper bodies may contain parts of organics but I don't think they are instrumental in the workings of a Reaper any more than the exhibits in a museum affect the way it functions as a building.


Evidently, it does, with Overlord, a combination of David Archer, an organic, combined the Overlord VI, a synthetic, to make a hybrid which can control the Geth. 

#1167
Taboo

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Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Stopping a singularity was never the goal of Shepard or the game. Not even at the end of the credits does it say anything about a singularity, this is not the point of the series.

It says:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."

Not:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by thwarting a hypothetical future synthetic singularity threat."


That's because two of the endings don't do that.


Then you admit it's hypothetical?

Or that it cannot be predicted?

Hypothesize!

#1168
antares_sublight

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Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Stopping a singularity was never the goal of Shepard or the game. Not even at the end of the credits does it say anything about a singularity, this is not the point of the series.

It says:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."

Not:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by thwarting a hypothetical future synthetic singularity threat."


That's because two of the endings don't do that.

And yet all 3 are "winning" endings according to BioWare.

#1169
Vigilant111

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Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No, Shepards wish is to destory the reapers. Even the star child points it out.


Not if I add an extra level of riddles to this :-P

Throughout the conversation with Catalyst I couldn't decide when he was using the singular "you" - meaning Shepard himself - and the group "you" - referring to all the people following him (roughly arranged in a single "platform").

Remember Legion explaining how he found it difficult distinguishing between crew members and the ship? To an AI the Normandy was a platform and each individual was part of that platform, so addressing one should be like addressing the whole.

So when the Catalyst says "you want to destroy the Reapers" he could mean that is the aim of the attack-force, not necessarily the will of the individual (besides the player decides what Shepard does and doesn't want, by that point they could be firmly decided on Control).


Does it matter whether the "you" is Shepard or organics not? to me there's no difference, control and synthesis never really were options to him, well, control was failed by TIM and synthesis never existed

If the reapers haven't done synthesis before, how are they sure that systhesis will stop conflicts?

#1170
dreman9999

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. It's a speculation that the quarian if left alone would attack the geth and no oher race would try to control the geth?


It's speculation to assume the Heretics would exist without Nazara and its influence. 

2. A VI that gains awarness is an AI. Example"The Geth.


Irrelevant. The reasons for the event do not support your point. 

3.Who said anything about synthetics have to act on their own? The only thing that need to be acknolege is that synthetics are attacking organics.


I acknowledge synthetics are attacking organics, or would in this instance. 

I, unlike you, acknowledge the reason why, which is the involuntary control of a hybrid of organic and synthetic.

This does not support synthetics trying to wipe out all organics. Nothing does. 

1.Who said anything about the heritics...My point was the geth hostility with organics will exsist with out the imput of the reapers because organic always attack them.
2. It makes the Moon VI an AI. And it another conflict with AI's organics started first.
3. But synthetic are whiping out organics...And the reason why is because an organic plugged another organic in a control station for synthetics...That doesn't mean organics are the cause of the conflict with synthetics?

#1171
Vigilant111

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The Catalyst is more intelligent and knowledgeable than we are.

The Catalyst does not lie.


Who said that?

I think synthesis supporters are overly optimistic about Catalyst's statement cos it has no prove that synthesis will work

#1172
The Night Mammoth

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dreman9999 wrote...
1.Who said anything about the heritics...My point was the geth hostility with organics will exsist with out the imput of the reapers because organic always attack them.


The Geth aren't hostile to organics, not without provocation. 

2. It makes the Moon VI an AI. And it another conflict with AI's organics started first.


The organics didn't start it, that's the f*cking point. 

3. But synthetic are whiping out organics...And the reason why is because an organic plugged another organic in a control station for synthetics...That doesn't mean organics are the cause of the conflict with synthetics?


So that was your point! 

Yes, I guess it does mean organics are to blame. Or more specifically, it's Cerberus's fault for creating a hybrid that will come to this conclusion. It's not the synthetics being provoked to attack. 

#1173
Vigilant111

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antares_sublight wrote...

Stopping a singularity was never the goal of Shepard or the game. Not even at the end of the credits does it say anything about a singularity, this is not the point of the series.

It says:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."

Not:
"Commander Shepard has become a legend by thwarting a hypothetical future synthetic singularity threat."


To me, ending the reaper threat in concrete terms means destroying them, having them around in ANY form is itself a threat to not only oneself but also others

#1174
PsyrenY

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xbb1024 wrote...

The fear of being surpassed should not just be directed at synthetic races. Similarly, an idea like the genophage by an advanced irganic race would be equally terrifying.


No, it would not, and here's why.

The Salarians that came up with the genophage and the Turians that deployed it were brutal and cruel. Of course, so were the Krogan who forced their hands, but let's put that aside for now.

Among the Salarians, there are many who agree with the genophage. However, there are those who do not, notably Mordin and Padok, and better still they have the intelligence and education to do something about it.

The difference between Geth and Salarians, is that the Salarians who support the genophage cannot go out and develop a virus that will brainwash all other Salarians to share their point of view. Imagine if the Dalatrass had the power to brainwash Mordin - you'd have never gotten the Genophage cure off the ground. But the Heretics have the power to do that to the Geth; all synthetics that can develop schisms due to math fluctuations can do so. The same protections that keep one viewpoint from dominating an organic race do not apply to them.

#1175
dreman9999

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Who said anything about the heritics...My point was the geth hostility with organics will exsist with out the imput of the reapers because organic always attack them.


The Geth aren't hostile to organics, not without provocation. 

2. It makes the Moon VI an AI. And it another conflict with AI's organics started first.


The organics didn't start it, that's the f*cking point. 

3. But synthetic are whiping out organics...And the reason why is because an organic plugged another organic in a control station for synthetics...That doesn't mean organics are the cause of the conflict with synthetics?


So that was your point! 

Yes, I guess it does mean organics are to blame. Or more specifically, it's Cerberus's fault for creating a hybrid that will come to this conclusion. It's not the synthetics being provoked to attack. 

1. Which is why the quarian attcking them would make them hostile.
2.Yes, they did. They attacked the Moon VI first.
3.It matter not that a small group of organic started it. The end results is that all organics will get pulled into the conflict.