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[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

"additional context and deeper insight"
"additional clarity and closure"
"additional context and answers"

Did you skip over these phrases?

That means nothing. 

You are making inferences.

Those are all direct quotes. (I would have thought the quotation marks would have made that clear.)

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

"additional context and deeper insight"
"additional clarity and closure"
"additional context and answers"

Did you skip over these phrases?

That means nothing. 

You are making inferences.

Those are all direct quotes. (I would have thought the quotation marks would have made that clear.)

Understand this, because I will only explain it so many times.

You have no idea in what capacity those examples are going to be explored.

You assume that means you are going to have a better implementation of Synthesis.

It doesn't mean anything until you have a product.

You grasp at as many straws as I do.

"It's a matter of what's in the frame and what's not" - Martin Scorsese

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 04:15 .

[Veneke]

I had a post, but decided against continuing to further derail this thread.

Modifié par Veneke, 21 mai 2012 - 04:23 .

[Taboo]

Veneke wrote...

Eh... not worth it.

Say something or nothing at all.

You have no idea what they're doing. It could be anything. You are trying to explain something that you cannot.

The situation reminds me of the ******/defecation artists in New York and Los Angeles.

There is no explanation. It's just **** that is slapped on a canvas.

With pancakes. 

[Heeden]

Whilst synthetic is often taken to mean "artificial" that is not the true definition, synthesis means creating something from two or more components.

In the case of the Geth intelligence is synthesised from many programs running on the same platform, initially formed from networks of bodies running single programs but later incorporating many in to one (as in the case of Legion). A blue-box quantum computer likely achieves the same thing by running many programs (or the same program with random variations) simultaneously.

Synthesis for the galaxy would mean each individual becomes a "program" which can be grouped in several orders of platform - a work-crew, a colony, a whole system...each a platform comprising many platforms comprising individual programs. In biological terms each individual would be a cell, groups would be organs, and I find it likely the species would be systems (i.e. the Asari the nervous system, Volus digestive system, Krogan immune system etc.) combining to create one organism - the galaxy.

It would not eliminate free-will or conflict. The cells in your body work according to their nature and in some ways there is a carefully balanced warzone that is mediated by the process of being alive. Shepard's life force would be that mediator, something connecting every sentient being in the galaxy (throw in some quantum and you can probably mix up some decent pseudo-science).

A new...DNA. How telling is that pause from the Catalyst? Obviously he does not actually mean different genetic material, but DNA is the only word in our vocabulary that fits the concept. DNA is the only thing every cell in our body has in common (red blood cells excepted, they can be non-sentient technology or something), Shepards life-force reaching out through space-magic / suitable-advanced-technology becomes the one thing all sentients have in common, causing even armed conflicts to be resolved in ways that benefit the greater good.

The theory already exists in Mass Effect with the Thorian's effects on the colonists of Zhu's Hope (something the Reapers - through the Geth - have already shown an interest in). It would also go down well with the Turians who have an idea of groups and organisations having a spirit analagous to Geth "platforms".

[Taboo]

You assume the pause means something.

You understand that it creates an understanding between the two? That it removes fear?

Do you understand what that means?

[Heeden]

As an added bonus to the "real" definition of synthetic (I say "real" because whilst it is a more accurate definition Bioware may indeed have meant it as "artificial"), there are points where both the Geth and EDI transcend this state. When Legion finally refers to himself as "I", and EDI's speech along the lines of "Cerberus taught me to think, Joker taught me to love but only now do I feel alive, and that's your influence Shepard" means they may no longer be synthetic, as the distinction moves from synthetic vs. organic life to biological vs. technological organisms.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Understand this, because I will only explain it so many times.

You have no idea in what capacity those examples are going to be explored.

I do understand that. But the default assumption when you read "questions will be answered" is that there will be MORE information, not LESS.

Unless you're a pessimist of course. If my username didn't make it clear - I am not.

[DJBare]

No offence Ieldra, but you are borderline obsessive over this whole synthesis thing, and I have to ask, who are you really trying to convince?

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Understand this, because I will only explain it so many times.

You have no idea in what capacity those examples are going to be explored.

I do understand that. But the default assumption when you read "questions will be answered" is that there will be MORE information, not LESS.

Unless you're a pessimist of course. If my username didn't make it clear - I am not.

Where I come from you're lucky to get anything at all. The Extended Cut is a godsend for them.

More information does not necessarily mean anything good will come out of it. That's never a bad thing but I don't expect a miracle in regards to certain issues. I expect to see basic marketing techniques. That is to say they are going to "clarify" that the realys exploding doesn't kill anyone. That's the bare minimum I would expect.

I don't have a problem with you choosing Synthesis, I merely cannot rationally justify it in my head from an storytelling perpective. It's implementation is so incredibly poor.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 04:47 .

[PsyrenY]

DJBare wrote...

No offence Ieldra, but you are borderline obsessive over this whole synthesis thing, and I have to ask, who are you really trying to convince?

Coming from someone with an IT sig, the irony is quite deep.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

DJBare wrote...

No offence Ieldra, but you are borderline obsessive over this whole synthesis thing, and I have to ask, who are you really trying to convince?

Coming from someone with an IT sig, the irony is quite deep.

You have...........no idea.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 04:50 .

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume the pause means something.

You understand that it creates an understanding between the two? That it removes fear?

Do you understand what that means?

"The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life in to a new framework. A new...DNA."

It doesn't say individuals will be changed on a genetic level, it says the way they interact and are organised will.

It also makes it pretty clear it considers the geth to still be synthetic, but hopefully their upgrade to being really alive will allows us to resurrect them in a similar way to Shepard, just rebuild the physical body and the "impression" left by life (as illustrated by Javik) would allow us to restore the same personality.

Anyhow, it will be something for me and Tali to look in to once we've built her a house.

Modifié par Heeden, 21 mai 2012 - 04:55 .

[dreman9999]

I'll end this singularity fear of synthetic on one note that pro synths seem not to get.....

Synthetic don't think ,act, or have instincts like organics. This means the nature of needlessly destroying other beings is not in the concept of synthetic. No matter how evolved and AI will get it will never needlessly kill of organics. If synthetics get to a point that they know longer care for organics, they will plainly leave organics alone. The only time of conflict will happen if organics force the conflict. This has been bluntly shown with Legion and the geth and most of all in his loyalty mission. Organics think differently and have different need then we do...Using our concepts and ideals to define a synthetics action is flaw by the very fact that they alien to us.

Added that technology never ends or neutralizer conflict, so even say synthesis would is base less...It will only enhance it by letting us make the weapons to fight synthetics faster. What cause the conflicts the nature of organics. It's based in our nature to cause conflict and the only way to stop the conflict is to control it. We ourselves can do it through empathy, mutual understanding, and/or redirecting the need to something else...Bu t no technology can do that by itself , this is something that organic being need to figure out by themselves. BW made this example with Wrex, Eve, and the krogan. This is reason why the reapers are imposing forced evolution on organics...To evolve organics past the need of conflict.
This is also the problem with synthesis...It also open the ability of the reaper to force this evolution and control over organic by implanting them. The reapers have been shown to control organics with implant for the entirety of ME and in synthesis you let them implant everyone using the crucible.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume the pause means something.

You understand that it creates an understanding between the two? That it removes fear?

Do you understand what that means?

It doesn't say individuals will be changed on a genetic level, it says the way they interact and are organised will.

That's a change. To do so you would have to interfere with the way they think or process.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 mai 2012 - 04:53 .

[TheCrazyHobo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

A singularity is a hypothetical issue. It is not even a theory at this point.

Bull****. The Geth freaking achieved it during ME3.

Legion: The geth were building a megastructure to house all geth, store all memories. It was to end our isolation from each other.
Shep: And the quarian flotilla attacked it?
Legion: Yes. A significant amount of programs were installed when creators began bombing. We did not have sufficient surplus hardware to save them all. Some programs could not be recovered.

This is the same Dyson Sphere he tells you about in ME2. The one that, once all of them were in it, would "increase their intelligence beyond calculable measure" and which even he admits "they do not know what the effects will be." That is a textbook singularity, dude.

A technological Singularity is the creation of an AI which is  more intelligent than a human or "Organics." However, a singularity can also be caused by artifical augmentation of the brain which expands the intelligence beyond normal "organic" capacity.  
However, in the Mass Effect Universe, technological singulairties have already occured in the form of AI. EDI is not killing people, the True Geth only fought in self defense and the Virtual Aliens just wanted to live in piece. The only homicidal post-singularity AI are the Reapers, and they are this way because of their "prime directive" to save us from robots.   

Neither EDI nor the Geth are currently at singularity-level. They are both very advanced, but neither is particularly more intelligent than organics.

We see proof of this multiple times in the game. EDI comes to you for relationship advice. She is not smart enough to routinely outfly Reapers without a skilled organic operator (Joker) helping her. Traynor knows of technological upgrades that she does not, as do Adams/Ken/Gabby. As for Legion, Garrus can outcalibrate him, Xen can outhack them, and the Geth are utterly helpless against the Quarians without Reaper assistance. 

However, the Geth were about to achieve singularity. Had they finished their mass-upload, they would not have needed Reaper assistance to protect themselves - Legion tells you this himself. The fact that they were that close to doing so a mere 300 years after birth is extremely telling.

Ahh, there's your problem, you believe that the creation of a technological singularity equals an Ultimate Intelligence which is virtually omniscient.  This is not true, all it needs is surpass the species which created it.  EDI far surpasses Shepherd/The Normandy Crew in intelligence and sheer processing power.  She represents a tech singularity created by Humanity.  Just because EDI does not know how to "hook up" with Joker does not mean she is not intelligent.  Intelligence is not based on your ability to "hook up" and nobody bases intelligence off of that.  Next, Traynor suggesting upgrades just means EDI can get smarter, which is fine becasue singularities are not the end of technological evolution.  

Regarding the Geth: Garrus outcalibrating Legion was just to show Garru's calibration skills go beyond comprehension, its an easter egg.  Also, Xen did not hack into Geth to gain the uperhand, she just took advantage of a physical trait to confuse them allowing Gerrel to destroy them.  Is a Dog smarter than a human when it rips out his juggular.  

By the way, do you have any response to the Reapers and Virtual Aliens already reaching Singularity?

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume the pause means something.

You understand that it creates an understanding between the two? That it removes fear?

Do you understand what that means?

It doesn't say individuals will be changed on a genetic level, it says the way they interact and are organised will.

That's a change. To do so you would have to interfere with the way they think or process.

No, you could also change the information they are receiving, i.e. empathy with others on their "platform" as illustrated by the Zhu's Hope survivors.

Edit: even if the Shepard energy did interfere with the way organisms think or process it still would not require a rewrite of genetic information.

Modifié par Heeden, 21 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You assume the pause means something.

You understand that it creates an understanding between the two? That it removes fear?

Do you understand what that means?

It doesn't say individuals will be changed on a genetic level, it says the way they interact and are organised will.

That's a change. To do so you would have to interfere with the way they think or process.

No, you could also change the information they are receiving, i.e. empathy with others on their "platform" as illustrated by the Zhu's Hope survivors.

Edit: even if the Shepard energy did interfere with the way organisms think or process it still would not require a rewrite of genetic information.

Do you understand that sounds dangerously like indoctrination, right?

[dreman9999]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

A singularity is a hypothetical issue. It is not even a theory at this point.

Bull****. The Geth freaking achieved it during ME3.

Legion: The geth were building a megastructure to house all geth, store all memories. It was to end our isolation from each other.
Shep: And the quarian flotilla attacked it?
Legion: Yes. A significant amount of programs were installed when creators began bombing. We did not have sufficient surplus hardware to save them all. Some programs could not be recovered.

This is the same Dyson Sphere he tells you about in ME2. The one that, once all of them were in it, would "increase their intelligence beyond calculable measure" and which even he admits "they do not know what the effects will be." That is a textbook singularity, dude.

A technological Singularity is the creation of an AI which is  more intelligent than a human or "Organics." However, a singularity can also be caused by artifical augmentation of the brain which expands the intelligence beyond normal "organic" capacity.  
However, in the Mass Effect Universe, technological singulairties have already occured in the form of AI. EDI is not killing people, the True Geth only fought in self defense and the Virtual Aliens just wanted to live in piece. The only homicidal post-singularity AI are the Reapers, and they are this way because of their "prime directive" to save us from robots.   

Neither EDI nor the Geth are currently at singularity-level. They are both very advanced, but neither is particularly more intelligent than organics.

We see proof of this multiple times in the game. EDI comes to you for relationship advice. She is not smart enough to routinely outfly Reapers without a skilled organic operator (Joker) helping her. Traynor knows of technological upgrades that she does not, as do Adams/Ken/Gabby. As for Legion, Garrus can outcalibrate him, Xen can outhack them, and the Geth are utterly helpless against the Quarians without Reaper assistance. 

However, the Geth were about to achieve singularity. Had they finished their mass-upload, they would not have needed Reaper assistance to protect themselves - Legion tells you this himself. The fact that they were that close to doing so a mere 300 years after birth is extremely telling.

Ahh, there's your problem, you believe that the creation of a technological singularity equals an Ultimate Intelligence which is virtually omniscient.  This is not true, all it needs is surpass the species which created it.  EDI far surpasses Shepherd/The Normandy Crew in intelligence and sheer processing power.  She represents a tech singularity created by Humanity.  Just because EDI does not know how to "hook up" with Joker does not mean she is not intelligent.  Intelligence is not based on your ability to "hook up" and nobody bases intelligence off of that.  Next, Traynor suggesting upgrades just means EDI can get smarter, which is fine becasue singularities are not the end of technological evolution.  

Regarding the Geth: Garrus outcalibrating Legion was just to show Garru's calibration skills go beyond comprehension, its an easter egg.  Also, Xen did not hack into Geth to gain the uperhand, she just took advantage of a physical trait to confuse them allowing Gerrel to destroy them.  Is a Dog smarter than a human when it rips out his juggular.  

By the way, do you have any response to the Reapers and Virtual Aliens already reaching Singularity?

My question is if there is a reason to fear a technological singuarity?

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthetic don't think ,act, or have instincts like organics. This means the nature of needlessly destroying other beings is not in the concept of synthetic.

Tell that to the Heretics. And EDI celebrated sentience by firing rockets.

I'm not saying that synthetics would necessarily bear us malice. But to quote a good villain: "the boot does not notice the ant it crushes." A race that can surpass us in 0.6% of our galactic lifespan is very much a boot.

[Heeden]

Ahh, there's your problem, you believe that the creation of a technological singularity equals an Ultimate Intelligence which is virtually omniscient.  This is not true, all it needs is surpass the species which created it.  EDI far surpasses Shepherd/The Normandy Crew in intelligence and sheer processing power.  She represents a tech singularity created by Humanity.  Just because EDI does not know how to "hook up" with Joker does not mean she is not intelligent.  Intelligence is not based on your ability to "hook up" and nobody bases intelligence off of that.  Next, Traynor suggesting upgrades just means EDI can get smarter, which is fine becasue singularities are not the end of technological evolution. 

The singularity does not just have to surpass their creators, it has to advance beyond a level where the results can be predicted. It could be perfectly benign or aggresively malign. The Reapers seem to actually value organic life - why else would they spend so long preserving the advanced civilisations after preventing them from reaching (what they deem to be) a tech-level that endangers all organics? An aggressively hegemonising nano-swarm would not be so caring.

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

Do you understand that sounds dangerously like indoctrination, right?

Luckilly I've never been anywhere near a Reaper or Reaper tech.

[PsyrenY]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Ahh, there's your problem, you believe that the creation of a technological singularity equals an Ultimate Intelligence which is virtually omniscient.  This is not true, all it needs is surpass the species which created it.

I know that. EDI did not (yet) surpass our intelligence. She has more capability/potential than any given organic, but less knowledge as she was still learning.

TheCrazyHobo wrote... |
Is a Dog smarter than a human when it rips out his juggular.

A very poor example. Going for the throat is a dog's instinct, which they use on all prey (human or not.) Intelligence is the capacity to move beyond instinct, which dogs can only do in very rudimentary ways. 

Xen's attack on the Geth was, by contrast, truly intelligent. She learned from Rael's experiments and developed a way to disrupt Geth communications, a technique to which they could not adapt without Reaper assistance. Not at all the same thing. But Legion tells you himself that, had they completed their megastructure, turning to the Reapers for protection would not have been necessary at all. This implies that they would have achieved singularity on their own.

TheCrazyHobo wrote... 
By the way, do you have any response to the Reapers and Virtual Aliens already reaching Singularity?

Reapers are not purely synthetic - they are hybrids. Furthermore, they are constrained by the Catalyst's directive to carry out the cycle. They are not an example of the true threat that the Catalyst is designed to prevent.

Not sure what you mean by "Virtual Aliens."

[Heeden]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I'm not saying that synthetics would necessarily bear us malice. But to quote a good villain: "the boot does not notice the ant it crushes." A race that can surpass us in 0.6% of our galactic lifespan is very much a boot.

The gardner on the other hand is very proud of his plants, before he kills them all and either eats them or puts them on display, allowing the next crop of plants to grow.

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthetic don't think ,act, or have instincts like organics. This means the nature of needlessly destroying other beings is not in the concept of synthetic.

Tell that to the Heretics. And EDI celebrated sentience by firing rockets.

I'm not saying that synthetics would necessarily bear us malice. But to quote a good villain: "the boot does not notice the ant it crushes." A race that can surpass us in 0.6% of our galactic lifespan is very much a boot.

1. The heritics acted out of fear of conflict and hate because of past conflict.All based on actions by organics.
2. EDI had to learn how to think like and organic, it doesn't mean the totality of her thoughts is like an organics. She herself tells you that she doesn't have the same need of organics...And even at that she epathies with organics , even loves one. She never act on offence her self onless the conglict comes to her...She brings this up with her argument with Javik.

At that your still not getting it. Synthetic don't have the same need as us...They would not even need to move the boot that could crush us, in the end they would not need to even move. What the geth would build to bring them to their max level have them need nothing.