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[Taboo]

RedTail F22 wrote...

This may be a stupid question but I would appreciate an answer if anyone has one.

Even if Synthesis is supposed to end the synthetic and organic conflict, wont there still be a good chance that there will be conflict between those who were once organic and those who were once synthetic?

After seeing the ending it's pretty obvious to tell who was once synthetic or organic as physical appearance didn't change too much. Who is to say that synthesis will really stop this conflict?

That's an issue I see as well.

We all known that there are cetain Quarian Admirals who are less than...intelligent when it comes to the Geth. Whose to say someone won't derp and decide that Synthesized Geth are just as bad as the normal ones.

Synthesis doesn't resolve the issues with Organic v. Organic either. The Krogan still hate the Salarians. I'm going to venture to guess that they're going to be pretty pissed once they figure out that the Salarians didn't help with Earth because they didn't want the Genophage cured.

[Norrax]

jtav wrote...

As I see it, the big problem with Synthesis is that it doesn't fit the narrative. There are the bits and pieces you've outlined, but the idea of a singularity comes out of nowhere for more people. Rannoch can be resolved to both geth and quarian satisfaction. The organic-organic conflict of the genophage is a zero-sum game. Either the krogan remain sterile or the salarians let the galaxy rot. Add in the overarching themes of unity in diversity and a WTF reaction is understandable.

I like your Synthesis. But it feels like it wandered in from another story.

this! albeit that synthesis is sheer crap on every level, the closest aproximation to an actual "synthetic-organic" organism would be the borg, or cybrog. additionally DNA cannot be "synthetic" even if its artifically created (produced in a lab) it still  encodes for protein expression and basic pheno type(if observable and does not include enviromental factors which affect pheno) thus is organic! why do pro-synthesisist not get this?

Modifié par Norrax, 05 juin 2012 - 10:46 .

[JesseLee202]

Taboo-XX wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...

This may be a stupid question but I would appreciate an answer if anyone has one.

Even if Synthesis is supposed to end the synthetic and organic conflict, wont there still be a good chance that there will be conflict between those who were once organic and those who were once synthetic?

After seeing the ending it's pretty obvious to tell who was once synthetic or organic as physical appearance didn't change too much. Who is to say that synthesis will really stop this conflict?

That's an issue I see as well.

We all known that there are cetain Quarian Admirals who are less than...intelligent when it comes to the Geth. Whose to say someone won't derp and decide that Synthesized Geth are just as bad as the normal ones.

Synthesis doesn't resolve the issues with Organic v. Organic either. The Krogan still hate the Salarians. I'm going to venture to guess that they're going to be pretty pissed once they figure out that the Salarians didn't help with Earth because they didn't want the Genophage cured.

Oh but no! Synthesis makes everybody love everyone! Spread the love man!

On a serious note, that is the main reason I didn't choose it. Why would being partly synthetic make the Reapers not attack?

[KingZayd]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...

This may be a stupid question but I would appreciate an answer if anyone has one.

Even if Synthesis is supposed to end the synthetic and organic conflict, wont there still be a good chance that there will be conflict between those who were once organic and those who were once synthetic?

After seeing the ending it's pretty obvious to tell who was once synthetic or organic as physical appearance didn't change too much. Who is to say that synthesis will really stop this conflict?

That's an issue I see as well.

We all known that there are cetain Quarian Admirals who are less than...intelligent when it comes to the Geth. Whose to say someone won't derp and decide that Synthesized Geth are just as bad as the normal ones.

Synthesis doesn't resolve the issues with Organic v. Organic either. The Krogan still hate the Salarians. I'm going to venture to guess that they're going to be pretty pissed once they figure out that the Salarians didn't help with Earth because they didn't want the Genophage cured.

Oh but no! Synthesis makes everybody love everyone! Spread the love man!

On a serious note, that is the main reason I didn't choose it. Why would being partly synthetic make the Reapers not attack?

because they gave their word. and apparently we trust reapers now.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I don't like the idea of a super organism either. I don't think that that is what Ieldra is going for here.

The super-organism is Heeden's variant, not mine. Inspired by Asimov's "Galaxia". This is actually more closely in line with the presentation in ME3, since it *is* an utopia and encompasses all life, intelligent or not.

As opposed to that, my scenario includes the *ability* for mental networking, which *may* be used for something like that in time, something else, or not at all on an individual level. It also includes the ability to conjoin into a gestalt mind, which would be able to keep up with the planetary brain of an advanced post-singularity AI if enough people participate. Nobody is forced to use that though. Synthesis provides the tool. How people use it is up to them. 

Note:
I can see the criticism coming: if nobody will use those tools, then organic-origin life in the galaxy is still endangered. That is correct. The question is how absolute the preservation of organic-origin species is meant to be in the Crucible function that enables Synthesis. My scenario only gives organic-origin life the *means* to keep up with synthetics and prevent their own extinction, positing that people will adapt to their upgrades and create, among other things, various new cultures centered around different ways to us them. But they can still f*ck up. An interpretation of Synthesis is possible where organic-origin species become unable to endanger their own survival. Since that would remove significant freedom, I prefer my scenario. Jack L. Chalker has written up an scenario with such an absolute preservation imperative built into a ruling AI in his classic SF tetralogy "The Rings of the Master".  It is not a pretty picture.

[Ieldra]

RedTail F22 wrote...
This may be a stupid question but I would appreciate an answer if anyone has one.

Even if Synthesis is supposed to end the synthetic and organic conflict, wont there still be a good chance that there will be conflict between those who were once organic and those who were once synthetic?

After seeing the ending it's pretty obvious to tell who was once synthetic or organic as physical appearance didn't change too much. Who is to say that synthesis will really stop this conflict?

There are two aspects to this:

(1) The "problem" is not your regular everyday enmity between different forms of life. It can't be, because we've already proven that we can overcome those conflicts. So, yes, there will still be conflicts between synthetic-origin and organic-origin species, but they won't result in extinction, because...

(2) The "problem" is the fact that synthetics can reprogram themselves and improve themselves much faster than organics can (example: the geth superstructure will result in an intelligence explostion aka technological singularity). This will, over time, result in a power difference where synthetics are as gods and organics are more or less unchanged. If a conflict emerges in *this* scenario - and it will - then synthetics will win. Always. Over time, this will result in organics getting pushed back, then confined, and in the end extinct. Synthesis will upgrade organics so that they can keep up with synthetics, preventing that power gap from widening too much, and give synthetics empathy and possibly other mental traits so that they can understand organics better.

[Ieldra]

Norrax wrote...
additionally DNA cannot be "synthetic" even if its artifically created (produced in a lab) it still  encodes for protein expression and basic pheno type(if observable and does not include enviromental factors which affect pheno) thus is organic! why do pro-synthesisist not get this?

Had you read my OP, you would know that I - and in fact, most Synthesis suppoters - are very much aware of this. Indeed a hybrid synthetic/organic DNA-analogue is an oxymoron because on this level, there is only chemistry, and the difference between organics and synthetics lies in design, not chemistry. An "organic construct" is still a synthetic, and a hypothetical silicon-based life form which is grown from a single cell using a DNA analogue would still be an organic.

I and others believe that the phrase "A new....DNA" is meant as a "metaphor for the dumb human". The pause before "DNA" when the Catalyst says it is an indictation that it was actually meant as a metaphor.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juin 2012 - 09:20 .

[Taboo]

I was thinking last night about Shepard being the literal Catalyst for your reaction with nanites Ieldra. 

I would assume the nanites assume some aspect of Shepard. That is to say some level of brain chemistry to...do what ever the nanites are doing. My "essence" is being used to fuel these nanites.

The Reapers are free from control now, and are going to be aware of their situation. They have been created via the deaths of millions of beings. I would assume that a now self aware being would be pretty upset.

Add that to my Shepard's behavior, much like mine and you'd have some very conflicted Reapers. Given my moral stances on things, I would imagine that if the nanites have any affect on things, our Reapers friends are going to be very, very upset.

I'm unsure if I like the idea of forcing that on a being, especially when I think about how they'll be reminded of how they are made.

Unless Synthesis provides some sort of amnesia blast.

I think I'm over thinking this, what do you think?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 06 juin 2012 - 02:05 .

[Ieldra]

This goes quite a bit in the fantasy direction, Taboo, but I admit I've thought - and written - along similar lines. Hmm...didn't we touch this before in this thread?

Anway, if "All that Shepard is" is absorbed and sent out, it is conceivable that this has some influence on the shape the Synthesis will take and the changes it will make to lifeforms.

It's a way to make headcanon real, if you want. If my Shepard jumps into the beam, the future will enfold like I envision it, if your Shepard did it, it would look different. There needs to be some component that "solves the problem", but apart from that the possibilities are endless.

As for the Reapers, I think it is plausible that after having been freed from the Catalyst's control, they'll become aware of how they'd been made and how they inflicted the same fate on countless civilizations, even independently from anyone forcing that awareness on them. I've seen fanfics where the Reapers help rebuilding to make up for the damage they did at least in this cycle. It may be seen as forcing too much humanity on them, but they were made from organics after all, so it's a possible scenario.

Personally, I have not made up my mind how I envision Reaper motivations or actions after Synthesis. Their minds are organic-origin, but they are conjoined into a more powerful whole - the claim of ascension is not totally untrue. It is plausible that they will remain mostly remote from galactic civilization's affairs, but an occasional interaction would be interesting.

[Ieldra]

Small OP update:

Added a new chapter with alternative interpretations. So far the only entry is Heeden's "galactic superorganism". I'm open for others. Note that putting alternative interpretations in does not necessarily mean I like them, only that I ascribe some plausibility to them.

[Gexora]

Okay, I have finished this thread
like, the entire thread
All I can say is... WOW
And also massive titanium kudos to Ieldra2 for all this work
I want to add some of my own thoughts but I just feel lost for the moment

[Ieldra]

You read whole thread? Impressive. Take your time with your thoughts, this thread isn't going away.

[Gexora]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You read whole thread? Impressive. Take your time with your thoughts, this thread isn't going away.

Well, I kinda had a few pages of "war over Mike Gamble's tweets" and "Destroy is the only option hurr durr" to skim through on my way.
I know what I want to say, it's just after reading so many profound and mercilessly long theories I now feel like I should go and fing some quotes from Gerbleng to back me up or something

[Ieldra]

Another OP update. Corrected some language and usage of terms, and added some information about the geth and what they are building.

I think anyone who wants to discuss the merit of the Catalyst's assertions about synthetics destroying organics should familiarize themselves with the concept of the Matrioshka brain, a megastructure like the one the geth (!!!) are building. Imagine the processing power of a brain with the mass of several gas giants, built in a time of mere decades. Mass Effect 1 makes another allusion to the possible existence of planetary brains with the planet Ploba, Antaeus System, Hades Gamma Cluster.

Note that this is no accidental similarity. The description in the game makes it clear that a Matrioshka brain is exactly what the geth are building. Depending on certain conditions, the power of an entity or collective inhabiting this structure, compared to organics, could only be described as godlike. An indifferent or malicious entity of this kind is what could cause the exinction of advanced organic life.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juin 2012 - 08:55 .

[Sisterofshane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Another OP update. Corrected some language and usage of terms, and added some information about the geth and what they are building.

I think anyone who wants to discuss the merit of the Catalyst's assertions about synthetics destroying organics should familiarize themselves with the concept of the Matrioshka brain, a megastructure like the one the geth (!!!) are building. Imagine the processing power of a brain with the mass of several gas giants, built in a time of mere decades. Mass Effect 1 makes another allusion to the possible existence of planetary brains with the planet Ploba, Antaeus System, Hades Gamma Cluster.

Note that this is no accidental similarity. The description in the game makes it clear that a Matrioshka brain is exactly what the geth are building. Depending on certain conditions, the power of an entity or collective inhabiting this structure, compared to organics, could only be described as godlike. An indifferent or malicious entity of this kind is what could cause the exinction of advanced organic life.

Nice Finds!

It makes me sad to to think that they had given themselves so much that could have been explored throughout the  2nd and 3rd games to foreshadow the ending properly, and they just didn't.

[Taboo]

 A lot of this is fantasy here Ieldra. We are assuming Mac Walters thought any of this through when he applied Comic Book Logic to the game.

I would agree that the Geth are using a version of the Dyson sphere but to what capacity remains to be seen. Such a construct would be self sufficient you see, and the Geth wouldn't really need to leave until the sun they were using. This would essentially be a Geth Ship that simply sits and evolves.

The issue we have here is the amount of energy needed to sustain it. How long would the Geth be able to use the energy? Did Dyson do any math as to how long a star would last? The Geth never completed the Sphere. We don't even know if it would work and looking at Dyson's writing on the matter it would take some serious effort.

Do we have a picture of what the Geth were constructing? From what I'm seeing here we have a great deal of variants. The Brain of which you speak of doesn't found feasible by anyone, as it involves one sphere inside the other. It violates no known laws of physics, but the amount of effort required would be enormous. The information I'm looking at here suggests that nothing but the entire deconstruction of a planetary system would suffice for such a construct. I seriously doubt any species is going to allow the Geth to build such a construct, and it certainly shows when the Quarians attacked.

Have we considered something a little less...big? Something within Dyson's concept? Only fictional accounts place a sphere around the star. An entire shell around a star would not work and is not possible. Have you read Dyson's essay on the matter? The thing of what we need is something akin to what Dyson called a swarm, that is to say a loose collection of objects around the sun.

Something like this here:



Or here:



I'm not venturing into Mac Walters territory here, and will provide you a realistic concept of what Dyson spoke of, not something Bradbury spoke of.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 06 juin 2012 - 09:24 .

[Ieldra]

Note I never used the term "Dyson Sphere", Taboo. That wasn't accidental. I am aware that a solid sphere around a star isn't a plausible design. The article I quoted explicitly allows for the possibility of Dyson Swarm design (read the "concept" paragraph) and as such wouldn't violate any known physical laws. If I recall correctly, what the geth are building is explicitly referred to as a Dyson Swarm. I'll look it up in my next ME3 playthrough. Will be some time though, need to finish my currrent ME2 game first.

As for the time needed to construct such a thing, consider that the timeframes in the ME universe are implausibly compressed after 2148. I would usually add a at least one zero to all time periods.

And yes, I think whoever wrote the geth story arc was aware of what he was writing about. The similarities are so strong that I find it unlikely the connection is accidental. Add the phrasing in the leaked script, and someone involved with the ending must have thought about it. Possibly not Walters though.

What they likely didn't think about was the reference in ME1. A good foreshadowing would have picked up on the hypothesis that Ploba is a Jupiter brain and provided in-world empirical proof in ME3. Add a Codex entry about what kind of synthetic intelligence could have inhabited such a structure, and the possible threat it could have posed if unfriendly, then refer back to that in ME3's ending, and the setup would have gained immeasurably in plausibility.

[Aurora313]

Spent about half an hour looking at the OPs of the front page links. Gotta say, I'm leaning more towards synthesis than ever. I've always been partial to it, before I became a fervent believer of the Indoctrination Theory, Synthesis was my first choice and if Indoctrination doesn't pan it, it will still be my first choice. I like transhuman-y mind-warp stuff, and over my time reading the Synthesis theories, people have been claiming it's Saren's ending, but the more I read, the more I realise it's actually Legion's ending.

Legion sacrifices his life to give his people the chance to grow and learn on their own as individuals. Shepard in essence (no pun intended) does the same thing but on a much grander scale.

My only regret is that I leave my love interest behind. But in my own small headcanon spin, Shepard not only changes the fundamental makeup of the various races, but also 'gives' their memories to the LI, (Ash for M!Shep, Kaidan for F!Shep.). So while Shepard has forever been immortalised in the galaxy's new hybrid status, their memories and 'soul' would continue to exist within their LI. Kind of whimsical, but hey, thats my headcanon.

[Taboo]

 I don't think a Jupiter brain is a good idea. Jupiter Brains have big problems when it comes to releasing heat.
What you'd essentially be creating is a convection oven. Unless you plan on building structures that can resist heat of that magnitude you're going to have some VERY melted Geth.

Here is an essay written on the matter, going over the various concepts of the brain.

Take note here that the author has stipulated that such a creation would vary depending on who built it. A non-hostile Geth force would build it to house a super intelligence.

Physics are being taken into account here, but plausibility of building such structures are not. The Geth MUST be able to build it from something and nothing but the complete dismantling of a system could do that. I seriously doubt that anyone will allow them to do that.

You are also not addressing the issue of the fallacy the Catalyst presents. He presents a fallacy known as an appeal to probability. That is to say:

A is possible/probable therefore A is absolute

This is a logical fallacy. You MUST present this in your OP. It does not matter how intelligent he is, if he cannot follow basic steps of logic he cannot be taken seriously.

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
In normal language, "it will almost certainly happen" is often expressed as "it will happen". Given sufficiently high probabilities, this is justified and the appeal to probability can only be regarded as a fallacy in a formal discourse - which we don't have here. That the Catalyst doesn't explicitly admit there is a non-zero probability that its scenario won't happen means nothing more than it thinks the probability too low to be worth consideration.

Basically, the Catalyst doesn't present an absolute. It presents a near-certainty and doesn't bother to say that explicitly because it goes without saying that nothing is *absolutely* predetermined. Had I limited time and a limited number of words to make my point, I would do the same.

As for the geth's megastructure, where the hell has your suspension of disbelief gone? You can accept FTL and even worse, inter-species romance, but suddenly, in this case you insist on 100% hard-science justification? As for "allowing" the geth to use the resources of a star system, it's the Perseus Veil, the geth rule there and nobody else has been there for centuries. Apart from that, who would have the power - and the will - to go to war with them in the centre of their space over a few uninhabitable rockballs and gas giants.

[Isichar]

OP synthesis may have worked if bioware put as much effort into explaining it as you did in your posts

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...
Spent about half an hour looking at the OPs of the front page links. Gotta say, I'm leaning more towards synthesis than ever. I've always been partial to it, before I became a fervent believer of the Indoctrination Theory, Synthesis was my first choice and if Indoctrination doesn't pan it, it will still be my first choice. I like transhuman-y mind-warp stuff, and over my time reading the Synthesis theories, people have been claiming it's Saren's ending, but the more I read, the more I realise it's actually Legion's ending.

Legion sacrifices his life to give his people the chance to grow and learn on their own as individuals. Shepard in essence (no pun intended) does the same thing but on a much grander scale.

That's an interesting perspective. I wouldn't have connected Synthesis with Legion, but this is worth thinking about. Legion changes a lot between ME2 and ME3 in his attitude to his species' future, claiming that the "unity and transcendence" represented by the Reapers is a state compelling to the geth in ME2, then going back on that, dismissing the unity but keeping the transcendence in ME3, for it is that for the geth. My interpretation of the Synthesis goes into the same direction, with the option for a "unity" to emerge if people want it at some unspecified time in the future. 

My only regret is that I leave my love interest behind. But in my own small headcanon spin, Shepard not only changes the fundamental makeup of the various races, but also 'gives' their memories to the LI, (Ash for M!Shep, Kaidan for F!Shep.). So while Shepard has forever been immortalised in the galaxy's new hybrid status, their memories and 'soul' would continue to exist within their LI. Kind of whimsical, but hey, thats my headcanon.

I have my own headcanon where Shepard's mind is scattered over the galaxy by the Synthesis event, but eventually re-coalesces to inhabit an advanced computer. Miranda proceeds to build him a new body and they continue to influence civilization incognito. This is, of course, not part of my Synthesis interpretation, but my personal post-Reapers timeline for my main Shepard. If Bioware can use a giant conflagration of space magic to turn all intelligent life in the galaxy into hybrids, I can use a much lower amount of space magic to make Shepard honor his promise to find Miranda.

[Taboo]

 He doesn't give me much of anything to work with. This is my issue as I've raised before. He doesn't really present me with anything. This is the same as a Gambler's fallacy here. He could easily win big bucks, but the odds are against him. Without a definitive number I'm not going to take this into account. I want to talk to him more.

In literature and film, we accept an image or content as "true" and put it into the totality of the narritive. Everything else in the game was explained in game, all the way down to how Asari reproduce. That's called suspension of disbelief.

You're German, so I'm going to assume you know who Werner Herzog is. Have you seen Aguirre, Wrath of God? There are two version, both have Klaus Kinski speaking either German or English. It doesn't make much sense for a conquistador to be speaking English, but you accept it because it was presented that way to you from the start. Herzog doesn't impose an insane logic upon the audience.

A Dyson swarm makes sense, as the notes and essay I have here make me fairly certain that it violates no laws. However, even Dyson notes that the amount of materials needed would be astronomical.

The issue I'm raising is whether or not the other species would allow this to happen. If the Geth were beyond the Perseus Veil, they would have to use an obscene amount of materials. It is more than possible, but the pracitcality of it happening without someone noticing is pretty low. The Geth weren't doing much of anything beyond the Perseus Veil from what I understand. The Heretics were the ones that had reached their "truth" and decided to help the old machines.

I'm not ruling it out, but I am trying to bring a level of realism to the situation.

There should be some "truth" to the narrative. That is to say a sudden introduction only serves to insult the audience.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 07 juin 2012 - 05:42 .

[Ieldra]

Isichar wrote...
OP synthesis may have worked if bioware put as much effort into explaining it as you did in your posts

Thank you

Actually, I hope that Bioware takes notice of the complaints and the various interpretations like those in Siduri's Unofficial Epilogues and this thread, and provides an exposition that makes sense in the EC. According to the big Mass Effect survey by masseffect-universe.de, 22.5% of the players taking part chose Synthesis. Enough to deserve consideration.

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...
This may be a stupid question but I would appreciate an answer if anyone has one.

Even if Synthesis is supposed to end the synthetic and organic conflict, wont there still be a good chance that there will be conflict between those who were once organic and those who were once synthetic?

After seeing the ending it's pretty obvious to tell who was once synthetic or organic as physical appearance didn't change too much. Who is to say that synthesis will really stop this conflict?

There are two aspects to this:

(1) The "problem" is not your regular everyday enmity between different forms of life. It can't be, because we've already proven that we can overcome those conflicts. So, yes, there will still be conflicts between synthetic-origin and organic-origin species, but they won't result in extinction, because...

(2) The "problem" is the fact that synthetics can reprogram themselves and improve themselves much faster than organics can (example: the geth superstructure will result in an intelligence explostion aka technological singularity). This will, over time, result in a power difference where synthetics are as gods and organics are more or less unchanged. If a conflict emerges in *this* scenario - and it will - then synthetics will win. Always. Over time, this will result in organics getting pushed back, then confined, and in the end extinct. Synthesis will upgrade organics so that they can keep up with synthetics, preventing that power gap from widening too much, and give synthetics empathy and possibly other mental traits so that they can understand organics better.

I'm sorry, how does that prevent extinction? That's like saying having not just 1 nuclear power, but having 2 nuclear powers who can keep up with one another (like the USA and USSR) makes it a lot less likely to lead to extinction.

All it does it make it more likely that there'll be heavy losses on both sides. Just because both have the power to upgrade doesn't mean that one won't upgrade better and beat the other.