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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#1476
Taboo

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Everything that occurs after Shepard goes up on that elevator is a doozy and you know it.

It is the worst execution of anything I've ever seen. A singularity is improbable, and the fact that the bad writing doesn't give any more credence to what the Starchild says. I cannot honestly tell you what's going on from day to day because it fits no narrative form I've ever seen.

Everything you see here is a direct result of failed execution.

I have not moved the sign post because it is far too big to move. It merely casts a large shadow over things.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 08 juin 2012 - 12:41 .


#1477
Ieldra

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Escaping into allegory, Taboo? It doesn't need to be repeated that the dialogue as written makes no sense. We have agreed on that.

What we don't agree on is that something can't be built from the wreck of an ending we've got. And about the singularity. The very absence of data we agree about makes it impossible to claim how probable it is. All I say is that it's acceptable to use it as a premise within a fictional universe whose rules we don't know. Can you just stop belaboring the same point again and again. I won't simply give up, you know, and I find this tactic offensive.

#1478
Taboo

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Allegory is all I can come to a consensus about. It FEELS like something I would have seen in a high art science fiction film, but it isn't.

What more can we possibly discuss? Is the nature of art but to critique it? I don't even know know anymore. What we do HAVE are a serious of very intense debates.

I DO enjoy them and apologize for my crass nature.

#1479
Ieldra

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Now that it isn't 3am any more, perhaps I can shed some light on what I was going about answering you, Taboo and frylock:

There are two claims:
(1) That the Catalyst's dialogue as written makes no sense, and
(2) That its claims are demonstrably false, usually in the form of "X cannot work".

These are not identical statements.
(1) claims that there is no logic in the Catalyst's statements as written, that the Catalyst makes no conclusions but just asserts an shaky grounds that synthetics will destroy organics unless prevented, ignoring evidence to the contrary in the game. That's a storytelling failure, but it also means that there might be a hidden logic behind it and it is theoretically possible that with additional information and or differently phrased, it will make sense.

(2) is a much stronger claim. It would mean that it's simply wrong and no amount of additional data will ever be able to turn this into something that makes sense. You cannot show that because we don't have enough data for it, and because the formal context you would need to prove this conclusively does not exist in the dialogue. The dialogue was never meant to withstand this kind of scrutiny, thus it was phrased in the kind of ambiguous language we use every day.

========================================================================================

All right, now let's get back to the Synthesis. I would still like to see more alternative interpretations. Currently we have three scenarios:

(1) Siduri's transhuman future from the Unofficial Epilogue Slides, linked in the OP
(2) My transhuman future, almost identical to Siduri's but with more explanations, described in the OP.
(3) Heeden's galactic superorganism, described in section V. of the OP.

There has been one more IMO I don't recall, possibly by Motherlander (if you're here, can you be bothered to describe it?). Anything else?

Also, I've recently come across a blog entry by ardensia which I find very compelling. Here's an excerpt:

As you play through Mass Effect, you run into synthetic life forms that basically want to become more organic. EDI is constantly trying to figure out humor, among other things. Legion gives his life so the geth can make decisions as individuals. Even that rather explodey and argumentative AI you ran into back in ME1 desired not so much destroying organics, but a body so it wouldn't be chained to machines and systems, but would be free to walk about as it pleased. Sure, not all synthetics feel this way, and even those that do are picking and choosing which traits they would like. But the point is that some are looking at organic life and seeing value in its approach to certain things, even if they don't fully understand it.

Likewise, organics have added quite a bit of synthetics into their being. Ever read the codex entry on how all the technicians interact with those holographic panels that control... well, everything? They have synthetic sensors put in their hands. How about biotic implants? Quarian environmental suits? The point is, organics have definitely seen and embraced some aspects of synthetic living. I'm sure there are some crazy people living somewhere in the ME universe that refuse to use omitools, but in the setting of this world, they'd be viewed as just that: crazy people.

And that's not even getting into Shepard's synthetics, which are so extensive that throughout ME3, Shepherd has several opportunities to question whether or not she still counts as human, or even organic. She's obviously stronger and tougher than anyone who isn't krogan.

So, my Shepard takes away everyone's current existence and gives them a whole new one that's somewhere in between where both sides were heading in the first place. And with no genocide necessary. Will there be people, and perhaps whole races, who curse her name for all eternity? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that they are still alive now. They have their past experiences, whatever they may have been. They have their memories, their reasons for existing, their tasty food. And they still have their individual choices. They can hate away, but they weren't going to get all those things with any of the other choices. Or, at least, not all the people would.


I highly recommend reading the whole blog entry. ardensia is approaching this with a "storytelling mind" which I find so regrettably absent in most of the detractors, ignoring the flaws in the phrasing and trying to get into the spirit of this ending. Yes, I know the phrasing doesn't make that exactly easy because it makes you feel like you're following an idiot's logic, but that's all the more reason to not take it seriously and draw on the underlying themes.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 07:35 .


#1480
Aurora313

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You're link to the below post is either broken, or the author/article/both in question no longer exists on this website anymore.

"Defending Synthesis" by Kroguard

#1481
Ieldra

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Thank you. Link corrected. There was a typo.

#1482
Jenonax

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Ieldra2 wrote...


I highly recommend reading the whole blog entry. ardensia is approaching this with a "storytelling mind" which I find so regrettably absent in most of the detractors, ignoring the flaws in the phrasing and trying to get into the spirit of this ending. Yes, I know the phrasing doesn't make that exactly easy because it makes you feel like you're following an idiot's logic, but that's all the more reason to not take it seriously and draw on the underlying themes.


Well that was ... actually mildly entertaining and well put together.  Thanks for that.  Still don't like any of the endings, but enjoyed reading it nontheless.:D

#1483
General User

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Ascension? Hardly. At least from the perspective of an organic.

In Mass Effect, the synthetic characters like the geth, and especially the Catalyst, consistently either betray or admit to a fundamental misapprehension of the most basic aspects of organic existence. Even EDI, the synthetic who is most like us, only becomes more and more human like as a result of Shepard's and Joker's influence on her. Our form of life is fundamentally mysterious to them. But the reverse is simply not true.

The geth have shown a willingness to coexist peaceably with organics, even if they don't understand them. And EDI's evolution as a character indicates that she may well one day reach the same level of consciousness/awareness that characterizes a human being. By the end of the game it's only the Catalyst that "just doesn't get it".

By fusing with organics, Synthesis might offer synthetics the means and ability to conceptualize the universe, and the place both they and others fit within it, in ways that were previously impossible. But synthetics simply have nothing remotely comparable to offer to organics. They bring nothing to the table besides bigger, quicker, and (not always) better ways to do things we already knew how to do. Things we could discover ourselves in our own time.

It may be an "ascension" for them. But, for us, it's window dressing at best.

Modifié par General User, 08 juin 2012 - 03:16 .


#1484
Taboo

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 So, my Shepard takes away everyone's current existence and gives them a whole new one that's somewhere in between where both sides were heading in the first place. And with no genocide necessary. Will there be people, and perhaps whole races, who curse her name for all eternity? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that they are still alive now. They have their past experiences, whatever they may have been. They have their memories, their reasons for existing, their tasty food. And they still have their individual choices. They can hate away, but they weren't going to get all those things with any of the other choices. Or, at least, not all the people would.


That type of reasoning, this right here, is what so frustrates me about Synthesis. Moral Relitivism does not differentiate between a "good" and "bad" life, it simply makes an assumption based upon one person thinking about what everyone wants. As advanced beings, our ability to be differentiate between a "good" and "bad" life gives us some great srengths and makes us who we are.

Marx believed that making everyone equal econimically would solve all of society's problems. He also believed that it was a scientific inevidtability. What Marx didn't factor in was that people are ***holes. And they will always be ***holes.

You want to give people a new level of existence? That would be great, but the only way you're going to make it benefit anyone is if you make them all peaceful. The Krogan will still hate the Salarians. The Quarians are still distrustful of the Geth. Unless you placate people, you are still going to be running over the same old ground with the same old fear.

I think of Miranda in this case. Despite of all that she is, she detests that her father has made her the way she is. She would love nothing more than to have a child, born free of that manipulation of genetics that so haunt her. But even that has been denied her by her father. I'd imagine that a Synthesized Miranda would be very upset, especially once she learned that Shepard forced it on everyone.

#1485
Ieldra

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That depends on the results, Taboo. In my interpretation, Synthesis opens new options, new ways of life. It doesn't take anything away except "organic purity".

Also, to prefer death to a fundamentally changed life that changed life must be pretty horrible. Otherwise such a mindset wouldn't be exactly sane.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 05:05 .


#1486
Taboo

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 That's the issue here though. I cannot possibly understand what you mean by that. That's in no way an insult, but a result of this....ending.

I can't "see" inside your head. This concept here is both a strength and weakness in art. I spoke about this yesterday to some degree and I'll explain it with this quote.

"...there is never just one truth, there is only personal truth." - Michael Haneke

I'm unsure if you know who he is, but he makes a fair point. I cannot possibly understand what you mean by "new ways of life". How do you "have a new way of life" in this instance? Unless you're forcing peace, all you've done is kill yourself and give the Universe the tools to destroy itself, only this time without the threat of Synthetics.

The effect on the Universe is enormous. Cosmic. I had always believed that Shepard's authority extended to the destruction of the Reapers, not the way life was. In that regard what you propose here is an overstepping of bounds to me. You were told the stop the Reapers, and taking that interpretation to the liberal extreme is pretty uncomforting to me. People say that Destroy is a cop out, when it in fact has the closest bearing on what you've been trying to do for a very long time. Surviving is just a plus in that regard, balanced by the possible destruction of the Geth.

I wouldn't choose Synthesis if I could survive either, because bearing the brunt of that guilt would probably do my Shepard in, not least when Miranda found out what he'd been doing. That organic purity is precious, and in time, people should have the ability to move to that state by choice, not under the sole discretion of one man or woman.

Synthesis will happen, and given our ten thousand year grace period, I'm going to assume we're not going to have an issue with Synthetics for some time. That grace period will see some interesting developments, especially if we are able to study the remnants of the Crucible.

I'm going to shoot the tube and go home to see Miranda, because that's what I was supposed to do from day one. I will not interfere with life, nor will I enslave the beings responsible for our issues. We'll come to the issue of the singularity when it rises, but only because that's what life does. It finds a way on it's own.

#1487
Ieldra

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I see. And *my* issue that I don't want to destroy the Reapers. They're the conjoined minds of countless species, countless billions of minds comprising the history of intelligent life in the galaxy. If you have an alternative that keeps the galaxy safe, destroying them would be a crime of epic proportions. Organic purity is a pittance in comparison. And there's the death of the synthetics. The death toll of Destroy is unimaginable, *and* it resets the galaxy to tech level zero. I have serious trouble understanding why so many people see this as the best choice. I can't do it. I just can't, even if the geth and EDI survived I couldn't make that choice.

I'd rather risk the jump into the unknown and the posthumous wrath of organic purists.

#1488
KingZayd

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I see. And *my* issue that I don't want to destroy the Reapers. They're the conjoined minds of countless species, countless billions of minds comprising the history of intelligent life in the galaxy. If you have an alternative that keeps the galaxy safe, destroying them would be a crime of epic proportions. Organic purity is a pittance in comparison. And there's the death of the synthetics. The death toll of Destroy is unimaginable, *and* it resets the galaxy to tech level zero. I have serious trouble understanding why so many people see this as the best choice. I can't do it. I just can't, even if the geth and EDI survived I couldn't make that choice.

I'd rather risk the jump into the unknown and the posthumous wrath of organic purists.


All those minds being willing participants in countless murders. They have never shown any pity or remorse. There is no indication that they ever will.

#1489
Ieldra

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As I see it, the Reapers were mind-controlled by the Catalyst, else they couldn't have done all that. Not being what they are. Details about what true mind control may entail in this thread.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 06:59 .


#1490
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KingZayd wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I see. And *my* issue that I don't want to destroy the Reapers. They're the conjoined minds of countless species, countless billions of minds comprising the history of intelligent life in the galaxy. If you have an alternative that keeps the galaxy safe, destroying them would be a crime of epic proportions. Organic purity is a pittance in comparison. And there's the death of the synthetics. The death toll of Destroy is unimaginable, *and* it resets the galaxy to tech level zero. I have serious trouble understanding why so many people see this as the best choice. I can't do it. I just can't, even if the geth and EDI survived I couldn't make that choice.

I'd rather risk the jump into the unknown and the posthumous wrath of organic purists.


All those minds being willing participants in countless murders. They have never shown any pity or remorse. There is no indication that they ever will.

Aye.  Or even that they can.  Based on the Catalyst's brief conversation with Shepard, it's reasonable to conclude that nothing of the of the "reaped" species remains apart from rote historic data.  And whether or not anyone or anything will have access to even that much is dubious.

Modifié par General User, 08 juin 2012 - 07:02 .


#1491
Vigilant111

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd rather risk the jump into the unknown and the posthumous wrath of organic purists.


your writing continue to amaze me everyday, with your simplistic visions - organic purists, I thought we came to a common understanding that destroy is not a pro-organic option, this is very naive view

#1492
Ieldra

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If the Catalyst's claim of "preservation" and "ascension" has even the tiniest bit of truth, the minds within the Reapers are at least salvageable, if not intact. As I see it, destroying them is multiple genocide. Also see my thread linked above about the Reapers being mind-controlled.

No certainty, yes. If you want to choose Destroy, you can deny it. But it's just an excuse.

#1493
frylock23

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Ieldra2 wrote...

That depends on the results, Taboo. In my interpretation, Synthesis opens new options, new ways of life. It doesn't take anything away except "organic purity".

Also, to prefer death to a fundamentally changed life that changed life must be pretty horrible. Otherwise such a mindset wouldn't be exactly sane.


See, your intepretation might, but what you see as a strength, I might see as a weakness or flaw. I've mentioned before that I don't like the company of other people very much, plenty of others might see this as a weakness or flaw, but I don't. I see it as a strength in that I've learned to be self-reliant and not dependent on others to approve of my every little whim.

This is a complete YMMV issue here.

The problem is that synthesis asks us to make that leap for everyone, and inevitably we're going to be royally pissing off a significant portion of people no matter what aside from the fact that making such a deeply personal decision for someone is just plain wrong.

#1494
Vigilant111

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You can not kill something that is already dead, I mean did the reapers exhibit any individuality to u? any culture? any sign of life? it is simply not enough to just put these lives into storage, u cannot salvage lives like that

I do not want to choose destroy, but I don't see any other way to end reaper threat

#1495
KingZayd

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Ieldra2 wrote...

As I see it, the Reapers were mind-controlled by the Catalyst, else they couldn't have done all that. Not being what they are. Details about what true mind control may entail in this thread.


so the Catalyst can mind-control the reapers but not mind-control Shepard?

And is this mind-control indoctrination?

Modifié par KingZayd, 08 juin 2012 - 07:19 .


#1496
frylock23

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Marx's biggest mistake was in thinking that humans could be content living in insect-style hive societies. He forgot that we are separate organisms that are inherently driven to compete against one another for a bigger piece of the pie. You can fight the impulse, but it's part of your genes. THEY want you to succeed so they can get passed on and survive.

And if we did somehow learn to live in hive societies so Marxism would work out, the hives would still compete to see which one was better, just like insect colonies do.

#1497
Ieldra

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Vigilant111 wrote...
I do not want to choose destroy, but I don't see any other way to end reaper threat

Fair enough. It's a mindset I can understand, even though I don't share it.

You can not kill something that is already dead, I mean did the reapers exhibit any individuality to u? any culture? any sign of life? it is simply not enough to just put these lives into storage, u cannot salvage lives like that

This, however, is just an assumption. Technology can do some pretty crazy things in the ME universe. Harbinger and Sovereign were rather different personalities, too. And remember Harbinger's "We are Harbinger"? As Mordin says: "No proof, but theory fits evidence".

@frylock:
You make some pretty big assumptions about what can and cannot be done in the ME universe. What the Reapers did shouldn't have been done, ok, but that it can't be done without destroying the minds involved I cannot see. The concept of a gestalt mind of thousands of humans goes back at least half a century in SF. And those who wrote about it mostly weren't Marxists or of similar persuasion.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 07:21 .


#1498
KingZayd

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frylock23 wrote...

Marx's biggest mistake was in thinking that humans could be content living in insect-style hive societies. He forgot that we are separate organisms that are inherently driven to compete against one another for a bigger piece of the pie. You can fight the impulse, but it's part of your genes. THEY want you to succeed so they can get passed on and survive.

And if we did somehow learn to live in hive societies so Marxism would work out, the hives would still compete to see which one was better, just like insect colonies do.


In my opinion, a form of communism could truly work in a golden space age where resources are effectively unlimited.

#1499
frylock23

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Ieldra2 wrote...

If the Catalyst's claim of "preservation" and "ascension" has even the tiniest bit of truth, the minds within the Reapers are at least salvageable, if not intact. As I see it, destroying them is multiple genocide. Also see my thread linked above about the Reapers being mind-controlled.

No certainty, yes. If you want to choose Destroy, you can deny it. But it's just an excuse.


Not necessarily. My husband studied plenty of preserved specimens on his way through college. They were kept in jars of formalin. They were most definitely not alive, but they were preserved.

As far as his claim of ascension goes, since it's already been established that they need genetic goo to fuel the construction of new Reapers. That could be all it is. Being used to turn into a Reaper is ascension. There is no life there, not necessarily, beyond the Reaper itself who may or may not have any real connection to the species in question beyond having been fueld in its nascent state by that species' genetic goo.

#1500
frylock23

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KingZayd wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Marx's biggest mistake was in thinking that humans could be content living in insect-style hive societies. He forgot that we are separate organisms that are inherently driven to compete against one another for a bigger piece of the pie. You can fight the impulse, but it's part of your genes. THEY want you to succeed so they can get passed on and survive.

And if we did somehow learn to live in hive societies so Marxism would work out, the hives would still compete to see which one was better, just like insect colonies do.


In my opinion, a form of communism could truly work in a golden space age where resources are effectively unlimited.


At the same time, what would drive people to work if they had everything they could ever need at their fingertips?  Because be honest, even in that golden age, there will be jobs that need doing that won't be fun to do.

I think the best argument for communism to ever work and the only place where it's ever been truly practical is on the very small scale of the nuclear to extended family.