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[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
I think you said it sounds like a prison. I do not disagree. I said it's a perversion of the ascension theme. It wasn't my intention to paint this as desirable, only to underline that a Reaper's consciousness is a gestalt mind of billions of individual organic minds. which means that killing a Reaper is genocide. In addition, the Reaper mind-control theory (Heh - I should give this theory a fancy name) means that individual Reapers are either not at all or only partly to blame for their actions. Thus we should look for solutions that do not destroy them.

We will extract those minds out of u, goodbye reaper, ur role as a memory storage facility has come to an end

Actually, that's a future project in one of my headcanon scenarios. But the Reapers need to survive the war for this.

Wouldn't that be murder?  I mean, the Reapers can't help how they were created, or that they were "enslaved."  Doesn't any consciousness, gestalt or otherwise, have a right not to be terminated without just cause?  Especially over something it had no say in.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Ah, that would be our issue then Ieldra. Universalism isn't very popular amongst relativists it seems.

It's not universalism which is an issue here, but notions of sanctity. I do not like ideologies which define a certain state of being as sacred and any deviations from that state as abomination. Those are the kind of people who would call MIranda an abomination because she's genetically engineered from scratch. This is the reason why I do not think Miranda would value organic purity all that highly.

The Reapers are a perversion of the ascension theme. But to call the uploaded and conjoined minds abominations is an insult that should not come out of the mouth of a moral universalist. Or does your universalism only apply to life forms you ascribe a kind of sanctity to?

You shouldn't mess with Major Tom.

Miranda doesn't think it's a good idea either.

She doesn't voice any objections in my games. Also, if you're speaking of the Collector base, she's out of character in the Paragon scene with TIM there (there was a very intense debate about this several times in the Miranda thread. I'm definitely not alone in thinking that).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 09:29 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Who says the brain is liquefied before its contents is read? Come on, uploaded minds are such a staple of SF that insisting it's impossible will get you nowhere.

Everything in the game does. Starting from their little connectionless acid pods. And the question of what they need the protein paste for in that case.

This has nothing to do with Synthesis from ME3, obviously, but I don’t really think the theory works even as headcanon if you at least try to keep it from contradicting the game. Full AU is a different matter.

[Ieldra]

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
I think you said it sounds like a prison. I do not disagree. I said it's a perversion of the ascension theme. It wasn't my intention to paint this as desirable, only to underline that a Reaper's consciousness is a gestalt mind of billions of individual organic minds. which means that killing a Reaper is genocide. In addition, the Reaper mind-control theory (Heh - I should give this theory a fancy name) means that individual Reapers are either not at all or only partly to blame for their actions. Thus we should look for solutions that do not destroy them.

We will extract those minds out of u, goodbye reaper, ur role as a memory storage facility has come to an end

Actually, that's a future project in one of my headcanon scenarios. But the Reapers need to survive the war for this.

Wouldn't that be murder?  I mean, the Reapers can't help how they were created, or that they were "enslaved."  Doesn't any consciousness, gestalt or otherwise, have a right not to be terminated without just cause?  Especially over something it had no say in.

I would ask. I assume at least some of the conjoined minds would prefer to have their old forms back. The technology to do that should exist. Others wouldn't want that and I'd leave them alone. Of course that's not the version Vigilant111 would choose.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
I think you said it sounds like a prison. I do not disagree. I said it's a perversion of the ascension theme. It wasn't my intention to paint this as desirable, only to underline that a Reaper's consciousness is a gestalt mind of billions of individual organic minds. which means that killing a Reaper is genocide. In addition, the Reaper mind-control theory (Heh - I should give this theory a fancy name) means that individual Reapers are either not at all or only partly to blame for their actions. Thus we should look for solutions that do not destroy them.

We will extract those minds out of u, goodbye reaper, ur role as a memory storage facility has come to an end

Actually, that's a future project in one of my headcanon scenarios. But the Reapers need to survive the war for this.

No, based on your interpretation, u are not supposed to destroy them after synthesis...all organic/synthetic conflicts cease remember?

Modifié par Vigilant111, 08 juin 2012 - 09:46 .

[Taboo]

No, the process in which they are created is the abomination. They are created by being liquefied, turned into a paste. The last thing they'll ever see is their friends and loved ones being liquefied.

A "memory" is not sentient. Such things are created by connections in the brain. All I see now is a grisly collection of film strips. Whatever they "were" is long dead. The only thing that remains is a record of what happened to them. People lost their minds when exposed to such things. I don't imagine anything we'd find would be of substance.

A Reaper is a new life form created from them, it is not them. It more resembles a perverse Frankenstein.

And Miranda is not out of character. The Paragon romance changes her into a completely different person. If you aren't choosing the Paragon options, I can see why you'd think that. She's more than disgusted at the concept of seeing that data.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
I think you said it sounds like a prison. I do not disagree. I said it's a perversion of the ascension theme. It wasn't my intention to paint this as desirable, only to underline that a Reaper's consciousness is a gestalt mind of billions of individual organic minds. which means that killing a Reaper is genocide. In addition, the Reaper mind-control theory (Heh - I should give this theory a fancy name) means that individual Reapers are either not at all or only partly to blame for their actions. Thus we should look for solutions that do not destroy them.

We will extract those minds out of u, goodbye reaper, ur role as a memory storage facility has come to an end

Actually, that's a future project in one of my headcanon scenarios. But the Reapers need to survive the war for this.

Wouldn't that be murder?  I mean, the Reapers can't help how they were created, or that they were "enslaved."  Doesn't any consciousness, gestalt or otherwise, have a right not to be terminated without just cause?  Especially over something it had no say in.

I would ask. I assume at least some of the conjoined minds would prefer to have their old forms back. The technology to do that should exist. Others wouldn't want that and I'd leave them alone. Of course that's not the version Vigilant111 would choose.

If the Reapers really were gestalt consciousnesses, I would think that the mere act of restoring the imprisoned minds their former independence would destroy the Reaper (or near enough) by rendering them hopelessly, impossibly schizophrenic.

In other words, the mere act of giving them a choice might be murder.

And even that's if (and that's a HUUUUUUUGE "if") the minds in the Reapers are even sane in the first place.

Modifié par General User, 08 juin 2012 - 09:37 .

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Who says the brain is liquefied before its contents is read? Come on, uploaded minds are such a staple of SF that insisting it's impossible will get you nowhere.

Everything in the game does. Starting from their little connectionless acid pods. And the question of what they need the protein paste for in that case.

This has nothing to do with Synthesis from ME3, obviously, but I don’t really think the theory works even as headcanon if you at least try to keep it from contradicting the game. Full AU is a different matter.

I suspected that Reaper minds are uploaded and conjoined organic minds when I first met Sovereign in ME1. Then ME2 confirmed it even before Legion said it outright because it's the only way the whole setup makes sense. Then came Legion - whom I believe more than EDI, because all too obviously the CB scenario, especially the visual presentation, was ruled by the wish to push the horror up to eleven, even if it comes at the cost of consistency. 

This is not AU. Just the opposite. As I see it, it is almost canon. Everything points there. Sovereign, "We are Harbinger", the claims of ascension, Legion, the Catalyst, the way organic individuals are needed to make a Reaper instead of just organic matter. It's the scene at the CB which is the anomaly.

[frylock23]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Ah, that would be our issue then Ieldra. Universalism isn't very popular amongst relativists it seems.

It's not universalism which is an issue here, but notions of sanctity. I do not like ideologies which define a certain state of being as sacred and any deviations from that state as abomination. Those are the kind of people who would call MIranda an abomination because she's genetically engineered from scratch. This is the reason why I do not think Miranda would value organic purity all that highly.

The Reapers are a perversion of the ascension theme. But to call the uploaded and conjoined minds abominations is an insult that should not come out of the mouth of a moral universalist. Or does your universalism only apply to life forms you ascribe a kind of sanctity to?

You shouldn't mess with Major Tom.

Miranda doesn't think it's a good idea either.

She doesn't voice any objections in my games. Also, if you're speaking of the Collector base, she's out of character in the Paragon scene with TIM there (there was a very intense debate about this several times in the Miranda thread. I'm definitely not alone in thinking that).

IMO, Miranda is something different. She's always been what she is, genetically engineered. She's never known any other state of being. She may not like what she is, and she may not like the idea of the process that made her although I'm guessing that this is more because she doesn't agree with the reasons behind her creation than because she dislikes her state of being completely.

What you're proposing to do with synthesis is to take an entire galaxy of beings who are all used to being what they are and from one moment to the next forcibly and completely changing that state of being without their consent. It's not like they will never have been any other way. They will be fully capably of remembering what they were and what they lost. That's another part of the horror for me.

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
As I said, ME2 pushed the horror up to eleven at the cost of consistency. I don't put much weight into it. And as I also said, uploaded minds are a staple of SF, you have no idea what is possible or not with the kind of tech the Reapers have, and you have no idea that it's just "static picture". I can say "No, it's more than that, the minds are intact", and you have no way to disprove the notion".

As for Miranda, more specifically I say she's out of character because she supports destroying the base out of sentimentality, because of what was done there. That's just stupid, and Miranda isn't stupid. But that's a topic for somewhere else, and of course you don't agree.

As for me and Paragon/Renegade: My Shepard almost all turn out neutral. But my main is like me - when it comes to notions of sanctity, I am most emphatically not a Paragon but rather an anti-traditionalist radical.

Hmm...did we derail this thread with the debate about the nature of the Reapers? Not really, I think, because Synthesis becomes a much more attractive choice if you recognize that the Reapers' mind are gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds.

(BTW, not staying here until 3am this time. Off now)

@frylock:
May I remind you that in my interpretation, the process is reversible on an individual basis. And I do not think anything is lost by Synthesis except organic purity. Rather, Synthesis adds options. Besides, can't you see the hint of racism in the notion of organic purity?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 09:53 .

[Taboo]

What she doesn't like is that it was forced on her. She doesn't like that it was forced on her sister either. The only thing that makes it worse for her is that she can't have children. She'll never have a child or her own to raise free from that control.

I'd imagine she's be pretty pissed if Shepard enacted Synthesis and forced a change on everyone.

People should grow and improve on their own, and not be subjected to such asinine policies. People are fine as they are, flawed and confused.

[frylock23]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
As I said, ME2 pushed the horror up to eleven at the cost of consistency. I don't put much weight into it. And as I also said, uploaded minds are a staple of SF, you have no idea what is possible or not with the kind of tech the Reapers have, and you have no idea that it's just "static picture". I can say "No, it's more than that, the minds are intact", and you have no way to disprove the notion".

As for Miranda, more specifically I say she's out of character because she supports destroying the base out of sentimentality, because of what was done there. That's just stupid, and Miranda isn't stupid. But that's a topic for somewhere else, and of course you don't agree.

As for me and Paragon/Renegade: My Shepard almost all turn out neutral. But my main is like me - when it comes to notions of sanctity, I am most emphatically not a Paragon but rather an anti-traditionalist radical.

Hmm...did we derail this thread with the debate about the nature of the Reapers? Not really, I think, because Synthesis becomes a much more attractive choice if you recognize that the Reapers' mind are gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds.

(BTW, not staying here until 3am this time. Off now)

@frylock:
May I remind you that in my interpretation, the process is reversible on an individual basis. And I do not think anything is lost by Synthesis except organic purity. Rather, Synthesis adds options. Besides, can't you see the hint of racism in the notion of organic purity?

I certainly see the hint of it in the idea that we must all be forced to be the same before we can begin to once again be different. But I also know that while you say we can have it reversed on an individual basis, I also know that things like this, once done are very seldom ever undone, and it won't always be because of the very happy state you assume all people will have once they but experience the joys of it.

Modifié par frylock23, 08 juin 2012 - 10:01 .

[Taboo]

The issue isn't that it makes people better. It's that you force them to be that way.

People are find the way they are. Such policies are what ultimately divide people, not bring them together.

[spirosz]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The issue isn't that it makes people better. It's that you force them to be that way.

People are find the way they are. Such policies are what ultimately divide people, not bring them together.

Emphasis on the bolded part.  

[Taboo]

spiros9110 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The issue isn't that it makes people better. It's that you force them to be that way.

People are find the way they are. Such policies are what ultimately divide people, not bring them together.

Emphasis on the bolded part.  

I cannot possibly understand why you'd think forcing people to be anything is a good idea. Ever.

That's the issue here. The amount of hubris required is so extreme it's not even funny.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm...did we derail this thread with the debate about the nature of the Reapers? Not really, I think, because Synthesis becomes a much more attractive choice if you recognize that the Reapers' mind are gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds.

Not at all!

If the Reapers really are "gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds", and Synthesis restores those minds to anything like their former independence, then Synthesis is as much genocide as the Catalyst suggests Destroy is.

Plus, there's no way to to be sure what sort of state those minds would be in.  By choosing Synthesis, you might be turning loose on the galaxy thousands upon thousands of heavily traumatized schizophrenics, each with the fire power of a naval task force.  Something entirely unacceptable.

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The issue isn't that it makes people better. It's that you force them to be that way.

Both are issues to me. 

Thrusting advancement upon a society when they aren't ready rarely has good outcomes. Mass Effect tries to make this point loosely with the Krogan. 

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Thomas Shepard asks you NOT to mess with the overbearing id that is Major Tom in this clip.

Out of character? Nonsense. They died thousands of years ago, and are better left to rest in piece.

Even the writers don't think it's a good idea.

Didn't your hear what I said? I did not get this dialogue because it is the Paragon version. In dialogues with Reapers, I rarely choose Paragon because I know I won't like what comes out fo Shepard's mouth.

@KingZayd:
How? What does it matter? Likely you won't understand the process anyway? But consider this: in ME3 is any indication, every Sovereign-class Reaper will be created through processing on the Citadel, maybe the lesser Reapers as well. This is at least very suggestive.

Also, I think the Catalyst's consciousness is distributed through the CItadel and the Reapers, but there needs to be some hardware to carry it. You could say, every Reaper has a part of the Catalyst's brain implanted. There is no reason why it should be able to control organic individuals in their own bodies.

The Human Reaper was made on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay. How did they transfer the part of the Catalyst to it?

Well we can agree that Shepard's mind is puny compared to the collection of organic minds in the reapers right? Then you wouldn't need as big a chunk of Catalyst code to control him right? And it's not as if Shepard's body can't tolerate synthetic objects. It should be theoretically possible to.. implant him with the necessary hardware and gain control surely?

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Who says the brain is liquefied before its contents is read? Come on, uploaded minds are such a staple of SF that insisting it's impossible will get you nowhere.

Everything in the game does. Starting from their little connectionless acid pods. And the question of what they need the protein paste for in that case.

This has nothing to do with Synthesis from ME3, obviously, but I don’t really think the theory works even as headcanon if you at least try to keep it from contradicting the game. Full AU is a different matter.

I suspected that Reaper minds are uploaded and conjoined organic minds when I first met Sovereign in ME1. Then ME2 confirmed it even before Legion said it outright because it's the only way the whole setup makes sense. Then came Legion - whom I believe more than EDI, because all too obviously the CB scenario, especially the visual presentation, was ruled by the wish to push the horror up to eleven, even if it comes at the cost of consistency. 

This is not AU. Just the opposite. As I see it, it is almost canon. Everything points there. Sovereign, "We are Harbinger", the claims of ascension, Legion, the Catalyst, the way organic individuals are needed to make a Reaper instead of just organic matter. It's the scene at the CB which is the anomaly.

I thought the same. When Legion decided upon the name Legion, I was thinking that the Geth and the Reapers were similar, and yet they had clear differences in philosophy. Both were "Legion", in that they effectively existed as hive minds, but they had different ideas wrt organics.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Who says the brain is liquefied before its contents is read? Come on, uploaded minds are such a staple of SF that insisting it's impossible will get you nowhere.

Everything in the game does. Starting from their little connectionless acid pods. And the question of what they need the protein paste for in that case.

This has nothing to do with Synthesis from ME3, obviously, but I don’t really think the theory works even as headcanon if you at least try to keep it from contradicting the game. Full AU is a different matter.

I suspected that Reaper minds are uploaded and conjoined organic minds when I first met Sovereign in ME1. Then ME2 confirmed it even before Legion said it outright because it's the only way the whole setup makes sense. Then came Legion - whom I believe more than EDI, because all too obviously the CB scenario, especially the visual presentation, was ruled by the wish to push the horror up to eleven, even if it comes at the cost of consistency. 

This is not AU. Just the opposite. As I see it, it is almost canon. Everything points there. Sovereign, "We are Harbinger", the claims of ascension, Legion, the Catalyst, the way organic individuals are needed to make a Reaper instead of just organic matter. It's the scene at the CB which is the anomaly.

You’re welcome to believe whatever you like. I’m not big on the “only thing that makes sense” argument since we’ve little reason to believe it can make sense. Flat-out ignoring clear contradictions isn’t a great boost to your case.

As I point out, the Reapers clearly do need organic matter.

The process in which the ‘individual’ is ‘stored’ directly contraindicates preservation of neural connections.

Occam.

The Legion quote is far more ambigous than you make it out to be too, for the record. Consider how the geth – who are made of many individual semi-sapient programs — need the Reaper code to become individuals. “One ship, one will, many minds.” That’s a post-Reaper code geth. Let me reiterate one word there: post-Reaper code geth.

Or, you know, it could be the geth not actually understanding what individuals are at that point.

Or just ******-poor writing.

…

I may seem hostile on this topic, and it’s because I am. I have absolutely nothing against you making up your own headcanon. What I do oppose is trying to label it as anything but.

Synthesis, as presented in the game, is completely nonsensical. What you’re talking about makes sense — if tenuously in places — but it’s not Synthesis.

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
As I said, ME2 pushed the horror up to eleven at the cost of consistency. I don't put much weight into it. And as I also said, uploaded minds are a staple of SF, you have no idea what is possible or not with the kind of tech the Reapers have, and you have no idea that it's just "static picture". I can say "No, it's more than that, the minds are intact", and you have no way to disprove the notion".

As for Miranda, more specifically I say she's out of character because she supports destroying the base out of sentimentality, because of what was done there. That's just stupid, and Miranda isn't stupid. But that's a topic for somewhere else, and of course you don't agree.

As for me and Paragon/Renegade: My Shepard almost all turn out neutral. But my main is like me - when it comes to notions of sanctity, I am most emphatically not a Paragon but rather an anti-traditionalist radical.

Hmm...did we derail this thread with the debate about the nature of the Reapers? Not really, I think, because Synthesis becomes a much more attractive choice if you recognize that the Reapers' mind are gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds.

(BTW, not staying here until 3am this time. Off now)

@frylock:
May I remind you that in my interpretation, the process is reversible on an individual basis. And I do not think anything is lost by Synthesis except organic purity. Rather, Synthesis adds options. Besides, can't you see the hint of racism in the notion of organic purity?

Haha, I wanted to destroy the base because of the Human Reaper. I was afraid of indoctrination (remember the derelict reaper) If it wasn't for indoctrination I would have kept the base, because destroying it would mean all those people died for nothing.

[spirosz]

Taboo-XX wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The issue isn't that it makes people better. It's that you force them to be that way.

People are find the way they are. Such policies are what ultimately divide people, not bring them together.

Emphasis on the bolded part.  

I cannot possibly understand why you'd think forcing people to be anything is a good idea. Ever.

That's the issue here. The amount of hubris required is so extreme it's not even funny.

I know it's not really the same, but the idea of the "force" reminds me of what the Salarians did the the Krogans and seeing what they were before their "uplift".  

[Vigilant111]

spiros9110 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The issue isn't that it makes people better. It's that you force them to be that way.

People are find the way they are. Such policies are what ultimately divide people, not bring them together.

Emphasis on the bolded part.  

I cannot possibly understand why you'd think forcing people to be anything is a good idea. Ever.

That's the issue here. The amount of hubris required is so extreme it's not even funny.

I know it's not really the same, but the idea of the "force" reminds me of what the Salarians did the the Krogans and seeing what they were before their "uplift".  

Any sorta "uplift" pays a price, the Krogans were being used

[Ieldra]

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm...did we derail this thread with the debate about the nature of the Reapers? Not really, I think, because Synthesis becomes a much more attractive choice if you recognize that the Reapers' mind are gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds.

Not at all!

If the Reapers really are "gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds", and Synthesis restores those minds to anything like their former independence, then Synthesis is as much genocide as the Catalyst suggests Destroy is.

I didn't want to imply that Synthesis would do that. Synthesis becomes attractive because it opens the way to such a thing later.

[dsprado956]

In the words of Admiral Anderson, "Listen to yourself...you're indoctrinated!"