9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@lillitheris:
I maintain that quite a bit of evidence points to the Reapers being uploaded and conjoined minds as Legion says. Sovereign's "each a nation", Legion's line, the Catalyst's statements. They create a very consistent scenario. Only EDI's statement goes against it, and even there the need for human DNA is easily explained by the necessity to encode information about the physical form of the individual. The whole rationale for the harvesting cycle makes no sense without it.

Honestly, I can't understand how anyone can reject this just because of the visuals of a scene clearly made with "evoke visceral horror" as the primary priority. The weight of that scene in telling us something about the world is almost zero, and actually, it isn't even incompatible. Just imagine that nanites invade the victims' brains and read the information and connections therein - before starting the killing and liquefying. But the technology of the process is unimportant in the end. Uploading is a staple of SF literature, and it is explicitly referenced. To say it doesn't work is counterfactual within the ME universe.

[Ieldra]

OP Update. Added a section with post-Synthesis fan fiction. This will be expanded as I read more. I'm taking recommendations.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm...did we derail this thread with the debate about the nature of the Reapers? Not really, I think, because Synthesis becomes a much more attractive choice if you recognize that the Reapers' mind are gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds.

Not at all!

If the Reapers really are "gestalt minds of billions of individual organic minds", and Synthesis restores those minds to anything like their former independence, then Synthesis is as much genocide as the Catalyst suggests Destroy is.

I didn't want to imply that Synthesis would do that. Synthesis becomes attractive because it opens the way to such a thing later.

Synthesis is attractive because it open up new ways to murder (and slowly at that) living creatures?  That's barbaric.  I take it you subscribe to the view that the Reapers themselves are undeserving of life.

Besides, why wouldn't Synthesis reawaken the minds that supposedly exist tapped inside the Reapers?  The Catalyst itself says that Synthesis means combining organic and synthetic life into "a new framework."  Presumably that means that former synthetics will take on many characteristics of organics and vice versa.  And, in that same conversation, Shepard informs the Catalyst that the ability to think for ourselves is the defining characteristic of organic life. 

For Synthesis to truly be synthesis we must retain our "defining characteristic" and share it with the robots, reapers included. 

[Vigilant111]

Great now synthesis is also destroy in disguise, make up your mind man, stop tricking the Catalyst

[Ieldra]

Vigilant111 wrote...
Great now synthesis is also destroy in disguise, make up your mind man, stop tricking the Catalyst

Eh....I thought a Destroy supporter would be delighted to see me trick the one that's supposedly trying to trick me. Only that's not what I meant of course.

@General User:
Oh my....can you please leave off the propaganda? I have said that I'd ask if those minds would want to be restored should it be possible. Repeatedly. I'm sure you've read that part. Repeatedly. I would make this decision, among other things, because I prefer a solution that doesn't destroy the Reapers and allows the conjoined minds to be restored to their original form if possible. Or to another. If they want. What makes you think I'd go on another genocide spree?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 juin 2012 - 01:41 .

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
Oh my....can you please leave off the propaganda? I have said that I'd ask if those minds would want to be restored should it be possible. Repeatedly. I'm sure you've read that part. Repeatedly. I would make this decision, among other things, because I prefer a solution that doesn't destroy the Reapers and allows the conjoined minds to be restored to their original form if possible. Or to another. If they want. What makes you think I'd go on another genocide spree?

The question is whether or not the Reaper joined-mind itself has a right to exist.  Hive minds and joined consciousnesses are fundamentally at odds with independent beings like humans.  By restoring the minds supposedly inside a Reaper to anything like the consciousness and independence they formerly had, you are necessarily destroying the Reaper-mind-in-whole that they were a part of. 

In other words, if you are in a position to ask those "imprisoned minds" anything, then you've already killed at least one being. 

Modifié par General User, 09 juin 2012 - 02:22 .

[Ieldra]

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
Oh my....can you please leave off the propaganda? I have said that I'd ask if those minds would want to be restored should it be possible. Repeatedly. I'm sure you've read that part. Repeatedly. I would make this decision, among other things, because I prefer a solution that doesn't destroy the Reapers and allows the conjoined minds to be restored to their original form if possible. Or to another. If they want. What makes you think I'd go on another genocide spree?

The question is whether or not the Reaper joined-mind itself has a right to exist.  Hive minds and joined consciousnesses are fundamentally at odds with independent beings like humans.  By restoring the minds supposedly inside a Reaper to anything like the consciousness and independence they formerly had, you are necessarily destroying the Reaper-mind-in-whole that they were a part of. 

In other words, if you are in a position to ask those "imprisoned minds" anything, then you've already killed at least one being.

You just want this to be a "killer" choice to place me on the dark side, don't you? Neither of us has any idea of how the Reaper consciousness works, but from all gestalt minds I've come across in fiction so far, component minds could split off without killing the whole. Weakening the whole, yes, but not killing. I can see no reason why things should be different here.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
Oh my....can you please leave off the propaganda? I have said that I'd ask if those minds would want to be restored should it be possible. Repeatedly. I'm sure you've read that part. Repeatedly. I would make this decision, among other things, because I prefer a solution that doesn't destroy the Reapers and allows the conjoined minds to be restored to their original form if possible. Or to another. If they want. What makes you think I'd go on another genocide spree?

The question is whether or not the Reaper joined-mind itself has a right to exist.  Hive minds and joined consciousnesses are fundamentally at odds with independent beings like humans.  By restoring the minds supposedly inside a Reaper to anything like the consciousness and independence they formerly had, you are necessarily destroying the Reaper-mind-in-whole that they were a part of. 

In other words, if you are in a position to ask those "imprisoned minds" anything, then you've already killed at least one being.

You just want this to be a "killer" choice to place me on the dark side, don't you?

It's nothing personal.  It's just that there are clearly aspects to Synthesis that you need to consider in greater depth.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Neither of us has any idea of how the Reaper consciousness works, but from all gestalt minds I've come across in fiction so far, component minds could split off without killing the whole. Weakening the whole, yes, but not killing. I can see no reason why things should be different here.

Unless the minds supposedly inside a Reaper are given their independence first, how can they decide if they want to leave or not?  And, once the component minds have regained independence, the collective mind mind no longer exists.  If other works of science fiction have overlooked or ignored this issue, well... more's the shame to them.

Modifié par General User, 09 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[Ieldra]

I find it completely inappropriate to equate the dissolution of a gestalt mind into its component minds with death. It's not like you hack off limbs of a body, but more like individuals leaving a group.

As for this not being personal, perhaps, but the agenda is all too obvious: People have a problem with the Synthesis, thus its results are interpreted in the worst possible way. People do everything to support their own ideology when it comes to morality, no matter how nonsensical and idiotic it may be. That's not aimed at you, btw, just a general observation.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I find it completely inappropriate to equate the dissolution of a gestalt mind into its component minds with death. It's not like you hack off limbs of a body, but more like individuals leaving a group.

Despite what turian priests might tell you, groups of people don't have a shared consciousness that exists as it's own entity.  Reapers supposedly do.

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for this not being personal, perhaps, but the agenda is all too obvious: People have a problem with the Synthesis, thus its results are interpreted in the worst possible way. People do everything to support their own ideology when it comes to morality, no matter how nonsensical and idiotic it may be. That's not aimed at you, btw, just a general observation.

That's human nature.  Something very much the same could be said of those that support Synthesis.  Just about anything really.  Obviously not our most flattering aspect. 

Modifié par General User, 09 juin 2012 - 06:23 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

  One thing I wanted to open some discussion on was post-synthesis implications. So I was just thinking here... (uh-oh).

Before I begin, let me say that I use the idea of DNA loosely here: its "new form" that the Catalyst refers to - as a result of Synthesis - in a figurative sense, as opposed to a literal one (synthetics have no DNA in the first place, derp).

That in mind, I'm trying to think of what specific new "genes" synthesis leaves all us organics with? There certainly are traits that synthetics have that organics do not, but what are they and how would they translate to us?

I always have had a rough idea of it in my head, but now I'm trying to go into details, our new talents - if you will. Here's what I've thought:

--> Improved encoding/storage/retrieval of memory and information.
--> Networked minds, sharing of thoughts.
--> More efficient use of energy.
--> Ability to regulate internal synthetic parts.
--> Improved life-spans.

A few of these that I wrote down may be misleading as to what I'm thinking. Specifically:

1.) While networking minds together would be efficient communication, I don't think organics would all go mute and never talk again, but do whatever suits the situation. I think there would be an ettiquette to this new medium of communication, like with anything else.

2.) Food and sleep come to mind when talking about "energy" in organics. To clarify, I'm not saying it would be eliminated. Both have their benefits, and synthesis sought to bring together the best of both worlds. So, we would still eat/sleep for the benefits of doing so, but we may be more efficient in our usage of that energy (not sleep as long, not require overwhelming nutitional needs).

3.) Many organics have built-in synthetic equipment: Shepard, Garrus, biotics, quarians. Post-synthesis, its possible an organic could "connect" with it and make sure it's running soundly. Run "diagnostics" to check for issues of health.

4.) Synthetics aren't really immortal. It is said so in the game, but I disagree. They can die as any other machine can die - equipment/battery failure. Similar to organics that die of natural causes. And they can be killed, of course. In any case, it is not a desirable outcome (to be immortal). But I could buy that synthesis could improve our life span. Especially if the above is true.

Anyway, those were just some things that I thought of as potential benefits to choosing the green path. I had always kind of approached it as "yeah, I can see the upside in that" but I just struggled to pinpoint exactly what those would be, aside from vague ideas.

I don't know about you, but I think this would be a huge score not just for any one individual, but for society as a whole. Like, the advancement it would bring about would be off the charts.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 10 juin 2012 - 02:46 .

[Ieldra]

@HYR 2.0
I agree that all of your examples could be possible benefits. I just didn't include anything specific in my OP beyond the mental networking necessary for Synthesis to be a solution, because I didn't want to veer too far off into headcanon. But since we're discussing our personal timelines, here's my take on things:

I have this idea that the synthetic symbionts provide a base functionality, namely the mental networking and nothing else at the moment, but that new functionality can be researched. This is based on the reasoning that the more radical a change is, the more social upheaval it will cause. Those who built the Synthesis option into the Crucible would have known this. Perhaps energy efficiency, internal diagnostics and an improved immune system could be included in the basic functionality with little difficulty resulting from it, but self-rejuvenating bodies really shouldn't. Alternative methods of energy intake are also a possibility.

As for the "genes": As I see it, propagating the synthetic symbionts through the generations works very much unlike genes: In organics, in case of pregnancy, the symbionts replicate themselves and pass on to the child. Synthetics would copy their software-encoded empathic functionality to new synthetics they make. This has some interesting consequences...

[Nimrodell]

For Ieldra (I think you will like these):
Documentary on Biotech (genetic modifications, clones, transhumanism and repercussions) and especially The Quantum Revolution documentary (among all, use of nanobots, benefits and dangers (perhaps even nanobot tech singularity)). I hope all of you willing to watch Michio Kaku will enjoy these.

Edit: added small descriptions.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 10 juin 2012 - 09:10 .

[General User]

@HYR 2.0
I've been looking for someone to post an actual list of the potential benefits of Synthesis.  And, like I suspected, those benefits are meager things indeed.  'ppreciate cha all the same!

HYR 2.0 wrote...
1.) While networking minds together would be efficient communication, I don't think organics would all go mute and never talk again, but do whatever suits the situation. I think there would be an ettiquette to this new medium of communication, like with anything else.

Sounds more like a novelty.  And not a neccesarily a particularly beneficial one at that.  After all what would the point of communicating at lightning speed if things worth hearing are so few and far between?  There's such a thing as information overload too.  The more nonsense and drivel one has access to (or is bombarded with, as the case may be), that harder it is to pick out what's of any worth.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
2.) Food and sleep come to mind when talking about "energy" in organics. To clarify, I'm not saying it would be eliminated. Both have their benefits, and synthesis sought to bring together the best of both worlds. So, we would still eat/sleep for the benefits of doing so, but we may be more efficient in our usage of that energy (not sleep as long, not require overwhelming nutitional needs).

Lose weight while sitting on the couch, huh?  I've seen that commercial.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
3.) Many organics have built-in synthetic equipment: Shepard, Garrus, biotics, quarians. Post-synthesis, its possible an organic could "connect" with it and make sure it's running soundly. Run "diagnostics" to check for issues of health.

You mean a medical exam?  Those already existed.  Dr. Chakwas did one of Shepard's implants in a few seconds.   

HYR 2.0 wrote...
4.) Synthetics aren't really immortal. It is said so in the game, but I disagree. They can die as any other machine can die - equipment/battery failure. Similar to organics that die of natural causes. And they can be killed, of course. In any case, it is not a desirable outcome (to be immortal). But I could buy that synthesis could improve our life span. Especially if the above is true.

That too is already happening before Synthesis.  Don't get me wrong, it would still make for a dramatic benefit, just not a particularly revolutionary one.

===
In all these cases, it seems that Synthesis promises not so much improvements as shortcuts. 
Worth taking?  Not always.

[Ieldra]

@General User:
In response to your take on gestalt minds: EDI refers to the geth consensus as "a mind the size of a galactic arm". It appears that it has its own identity, yet can still separate into smaller components down to the size of individual geth units. I envision the Reapers to be of the same kind, and actually I've never seen gestalt minds be treated in a different way in SF. That's the whole point of them anyway.

And I see the mental networking as a tool to create something similar after Synthesis. If needed or wanted. Sort of the "unity and transcendence" Legion speaks of, but achieved on our own terms, now, in then thousand years or never, or should it be necessary to keep up with an "AI god". I can imagine different cultures approaching this very differently.

@Nimrodell:
Thanks for the links. I've watched half of it and I know most of that already. But it's still nice to see it all presented in such a compact way. Didn't know Michio Kaku so far, as hard as that may be to believe.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juin 2012 - 11:39 .

[KingZayd]

What if the way the reapers are controlled is indoctrination (The popular way to control in the mass effect universe, and also brilliant because of irony) ? They have organic minds, and in their body it's quite possible that there are things that act like the reaper tech implants that amplify indoctrination. This would explain how they're controlled without knowing their being controlled, like TIM and Saren.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And I see the mental networking as a tool to create something similar after Synthesis. If needed or wanted. Sort of the "unity and transcendence" Legion speaks of, but achieved on our own terms, now, in then thousand years or never, or should it be necessary to keep up with an "AI god". I can imagine different cultures approaching this very differently.

I see "mental networking" as a communication tool, and not a particularly attractive one either.  Afterall, nothing in our pysiological makeup has preped us to mentally or psychologically handle that type communication.  How would the protocols work?  How could you tell where your thoughts ended and the person you were "thinking with's" thoughts  began?  How would you shut out the unwanted thoughts of others?  And, if you did, how do you ensure that important thoughts still got through?

Christ, it's bad enough when you have a neighbor who plays their stereo too loud.  It's practically a nightmare to imagine a world where one could gripe that one's neighbor was thinking too loud!

[Ieldra]

KingZayd wrote...
What if the way the reapers are controlled is indoctrination (The popular way to control in the mass effect universe, and also brilliant because of irony) ? They have organic minds, and in their body it's quite possible that there are things that act like the reaper tech implants that amplify indoctrination. This would explain how they're controlled without knowing their being controlled, like TIM and Saren.

Reaper bodies aren't organic - see the human Reaper in ME2, though they may have organic components. Also, indoctrination inevitably destroys the host. But yes, there could be a similar mechanism, for subverting the will is exactly what indoctrination does.

@General User:
What makes you think you couldn't shut that sense down?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juin 2012 - 12:59 .

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@General User:
What makes you think you couldn't shut that sense down?

There is no sense to begin with, the writer of a fan fiction is always right, well, at least to himself / herself

Modifié par Vigilant111, 10 juin 2012 - 01:05 .

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@General User:
What makes you think you couldn't shut that sense down?

Well... you can't shut down your other senses.  Perhaps post-Synthesis stores sell "brain-plugs" in the same aisle as ear-plugs?  And even if you could, there would be consequences.  I can unplug my computer and telephone, but then I couldn't do my work. 

And whether one could flick it on and off like a light switch or not, "mental networking" still has all the negative implications of any other form of information over-abundance, along with the very troubling implications surrounding independence of thought, personal identity, and mental health, not to mention shear the annoyance factor.  All with very little upside. 

Modifié par General User, 10 juin 2012 - 01:18 .

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
What if the way the reapers are controlled is indoctrination (The popular way to control in the mass effect universe, and also brilliant because of irony) ? They have organic minds, and in their body it's quite possible that there are things that act like the reaper tech implants that amplify indoctrination. This would explain how they're controlled without knowing their being controlled, like TIM and Saren.

Reaper bodies aren't organic - see the human Reaper in ME2, though they may have organic components. Also, indoctrination inevitably destroys the host. But yes, there could be a similar mechanism, for subverting the will is exactly what indoctrination does.

@General User:
What makes you think you couldn't shut that sense down?

Their minds are organic, as we have agreed. I know the bodies aren't organic. But Saren's wasn't completely organic either, and Sovereign was still able to indoctrinate him. The mind is what needs to be targeted. Also, TIM was studying indoctrination, because he felt it would lead to being able to control the reapers. It seems he suspected that it'd be possible to indoctrinate the reapers.

Yes, indoctrination inevitably destroys the host's mind, but then the mind of a Reaper is huge. It probably takes a very long time before their mind is destroyed. They also spend a long time in dark space (where I assume they are very far away from the source of their indoctrination.. but then who knows what exactly is out there?). As we see with Shiala, she's "still indoctrinated", but she didn't hear the voices when there was only Sovereign somewhere out there in a different part of the galaxy, nor did she hear the voices when there were no reapers in the galaxy. She did hear the voices though, when tons of reapers entered the galaxy. So it would seem there is a link to the proximity of the source.
In fact Sovereign (to me) does appear less mentally stable than Harbinger, particularly nearer the end.

We identify Harbinger as the oldest of the reapers, but that does not mean he is the first.

[Ieldra]

We *were* talking about possible scenarios, Vigilante111. Since there is no canon about the effects of Synthesis beyond the combination of synthetics and organics, that's perfectly valid. Compare the people who tell you what their Shepard will do after choosing Control. All those scenarios are perfectly valid, and complaints about how they shouldn't base *their* game experience around those are invalid. People have sovereignty of interpretation over their own post-ME3 worlds, but not over those of others. That's what the witch-hunters here on BSN don't get.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[Ieldra]

@KingZayd:
I don't agree about Sovereign. It seemed rather more sane than the trash-talking Harbinger. I guess indoctrinated Reaper minds are possible, but to use a process that inevitably results in the destruction of the mind would defeat the purpose of preserving the identity of the Reaperized species. My interpretation is based on the assumption that that preservation is true based on Legion's statement about the nature of the Reapers.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

We *were* talking about possible scenarios, Vigilante111. Since there is no canon about the effects of Synthesis beyond the combination of synthetics and organics, that's perfectly valid. Compare the people who tell you what their Shepard will do after choosing Control. All those scenarios are perfectly valid, and complaints about how they shouldn't base *their* game experience around those are invalid. People have sovereignty of interpretation over their own post-ME3 worlds, but not over those of others. That's what the witch-hunters here on BSN don't get.

The effects of synthesis is reflected through either the convertion of organics and "ascension" into reaper form...there is no imagining about it

Yes, your interpretation is valid as opinion, but not valid as plausible ending for the game, gamers are offended because the whole game has shown them the horrific effects of reaper technology, and now they suddenly expected to accept that all those horrible things reapers did were actually for the good of galaxy???

I seriously don't know where u get your information that reapers are benefactors... if that is the case why did u even waste your time and try to beat the reapers out of the fraking sky, and don't say it is because of the Crucible, cos as I have pointed out many times, ALL resistance against the reapers had been tainted by reaper tech, the activation of the Crucible depends on the Catalyst, it still have the final say regardless of what choice Shepard took

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@KingZayd:
I don't agree about Sovereign. It seemed rather more sane than the trash-talking Harbinger. I guess indoctrinated Reaper minds are possible, but to use a process that inevitably results in the destruction of the mind would defeat the purpose of preserving the identity of the Reaperized species. My interpretation is based on the assumption that that preservation is true based on Legion's statement about the nature of the Reapers.

I was referring particularly to the end. Sovereign seems pretty unstable near the end.

I think the minds are there, but I don't think whoever is the puppeteer, genuinely cares about preserving the identity of the reaperised species. If it did, it wouldn't take measures to override and control them.