9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

We *were* talking about possible scenarios, Vigilante111. Since there is no canon about the effects of Synthesis beyond the combination of synthetics and organics, that's perfectly valid. Compare the people who tell you what their Shepard will do after choosing Control. All those scenarios are perfectly valid, and complaints about how they shouldn't base *their* game experience around those are invalid. People have sovereignty of interpretation over their own post-ME3 worlds, but not over those of others. That's what the witch-hunters here on BSN don't get.

The effects of synthesis is reflected through either the convertion of organics and "ascension" into reaper form...there is no imagining about it.

This tired old thing again. Do Joker and EDI look like they've been Reaperized to you? Seriously, I can't believe how hard this misconception is to eradicate.

Yes, your interpretation is valid as opinion, but not valid as plausible ending for the game, gamers are offended because the whole game has shown them the horrific effects of reaper technology, and now they suddenly expected to accept that all those horrible things reapers did were actually for the good of galaxy???

I can accept the Catalyst's reasoning in the leaked script as a premise. Whether all that was, in the end, for the good of the galaxy I have no way to know for certain, since I don't know the probabilities. But it doesn't matter since I am there to end it anyway. Three ways to end it are built into the Crucible. I just wish the Catalyst would answer my questions before I make the decision, so that I can make it without feeling like an idiot.

I seriously don't know where u get your information that reapers are benefactors... if that is the case why did u even waste your time and try to beat the reapers out of the fraking sky, and don't say it is because of the Crucible, cos as I have pointed out many times, ALL resistance against the reapers had been tainted by reaper tech, the activation of the Crucible depends on the Catalyst, it still have the final say regardless of what choice Shepard took.

Another one of those persistent myths that seem impossible to eradicate - that Reaper tech is intrinsically evil. Yeah right. It's just technology, not some evil mojo from beyond, regardless of how much the primitive reptile brain of a human might want to put it in those terms. EDI has Reaper tech built in, the Normandy has, the geth are upgraded to individual consciousness by Reaper code, for god's sake, and there is even some indication that the Lazarus Project used Reaper tech. Reaper tech is nothing special and it carries no taint. It's a tool. A dangerous tool in some instances, but still still a tool. I won't have my mind clouded by visceral repulsion. It's irrational.

You're free to interpret things in that way, but don't tell me I have to follow you in that. It's nothing more than interpretation.

So yes, it *is* because of the Crucible that we now have a means to end the cycle. Suppositions that it's a tool of the Reapers are a result of the unwillingness to accept the choices we're given. Totally irrational. I understand why people don't want to believe it, but that's the hand we've been given. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juin 2012 - 02:32 .

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

We *were* talking about possible scenarios, Vigilante111. Since there is no canon about the effects of Synthesis beyond the combination of synthetics and organics, that's perfectly valid. Compare the people who tell you what their Shepard will do after choosing Control. All those scenarios are perfectly valid, and complaints about how they shouldn't base *their* game experience around those are invalid. People have sovereignty of interpretation over their own post-ME3 worlds, but not over those of others. That's what the witch-hunters here on BSN don't get.

The effects of synthesis is reflected through either the convertion of organics and "ascension" into reaper form...there is no imagining about it.

This tired old thing again. Do Joker and EDI look like they've been Reaperized to you? Seriously, I can't believe how hard this misconception is to eradicate.

Yes, your interpretation is valid as opinion, but not valid as plausible ending for the game, gamers are offended because the whole game has shown them the horrific effects of reaper technology, and now they suddenly expected to accept that all those horrible things reapers did were actually for the good of galaxy???

I can accept the Catalyst's reasoning in the leaked script as a premise. Whether all that was, in the end, for the good of the galaxy I have no way to know for certain, since I don't know the probabilities. But it doesn't matter since I am there to end it anyway. Three ways to end it are built into the Crucible. I just wish the Catalyst would answer my questions before I make the decision, so that I can make it without feeling like an idiot.

I seriously don't know where u get your information that reapers are benefactors... if that is the case why did u even waste your time and try to beat the reapers out of the fraking sky, and don't say it is because of the Crucible, cos as I have pointed out many times, ALL resistance against the reapers had been tainted by reaper tech, the activation of the Crucible depends on the Catalyst, it still have the final say regardless of what choice Shepard took.

Another one of those persistent myths that seem impossible to eradicate - that Reaper tech is intrinsically evil. Yeah right. It's just technology, not some evil mojo from beyond, regardless of how much the primitive reptile brain of a human might want to put it in those terms. EDI has Reaper tech built in, the Normandy has, the geth are upgraded to individual consciousness by Reaper code, for god's sake, and there is even some indication that the Lazarus Project used Reaper tech. Reaper tech is nothing special and it carries no taint. It's a tool. A dangerous tool in some instances, but still still a tool. I won't have my mind clouded by visceral repulsion. It's irrational.

You're free to interpret things in that way, but don't tell me I have to follow you in that. It's nothing more than interpretation.

So yes, it *is* because of the Crucible that we now have a means to end the cycle. Suppositions that it's a tool of the Reapers are a result of the unwillingness to accept the choices we're given. Totally irrational. I understand why people don't want to believe it, but that's the hand we've been given. 

U cannot extrapolate EDI and Geth and the Normandy, what are they all have in common? they could utilize reaper tech because they could CONTROL it, there is no way to confirm organics could do so after synthesis

I am not saying the technology is tainted, I am saying RESISTANCE AGAINST THE REAPERS are TAINTED...

We accepted the 3 choices given, no matter how foul they are, but I am not convinced that u could base ur decision on something u dreamed up later, and so far u haven't been able to self-evaluate and criticize synthesis, THAT is unflexible, even I have to agree with other people that destroy possibly removes all possibilitities of galatic recovery and that destroy also means destruction of the Geth etc, however, your overly optimistic interpretation of the synthesis gives the impression that nothing could go wrong and everyone will agree with Shepard in a post-synthesis world

The Adam and Eve scene is no more than the msg of "ending reaper thread", it has no relevance in terms of decision-making, and certainly does not erase reapers' previous actions from minds, and there was no follow up on what they could actually do, we have been given too little time to adjust to these new facts, it is not a matter of flexibility, but being thorough

[Ieldra]

Vigilant111 wrote...
U cannot extrapolate EDI and Geth and the Normandy, what are they all have in common? they could utilize reaper tech because they could CONTROL it, there is no way to confirm organics could do so after synthesis

Last I heard, it was organics in command of the Normandy for a large part of ME2. And perhaps you forgot that none of those things indoctrinated anyone.

I am not saying the technology is tainted, I am saying RESISTANCE AGAINST THE REAPERS are TAINTED...

Eh.....I have no idea what you're talking about.

We accepted the 3 choices given, no matter how foul they are, but I am not convinced that u could base ur decision on something u dreamed up later, and so far u haven't been able to self-evaluate and criticize synthesis, THAT is unflexible, even I have to agree with other people that destroy possibly removes all possibilitities of galatic recovery and that destroy also means destruction of the Geth etc, however, your overly optimistic interpretation of the synthesis gives the impression that nothing could go wrong and everyone will agree with Shepard in a post-synthesis world

Strawman attack. I have repeatedly explicitly agreed that there will some upheaval. I have quoted ardensia's blog where she said that there are probably people, even whole species, who would curse Shepard's name for all eternity (caveat: if they knew that there had been an alternative). I've never tried to portray a sunshine-and-rainbows future. But we come again to the Crucible: it was built by organics, the Synthesis option was put in by them, so I feel justified in believing that the primary effects would be beneficial to organics. CulturalGeekGirl said it better than I in the section I quoted in my OP. Has it occurred to you that the Reapers might just be muddying the waters with their insidiously perverted ascension?

Within those parameters, I have agreed that Synthesis is a risky decision but one I'll take anyway because a jump into the unknown is more attractive to me than either regressing into the past (Destroy) or treading the same old paths as before (Control). Besides, I am far less pessimistic about galactic recovery in (high-EMS) Destroy than you are. I even made a thread about it (for all three endings) some time ago. I am determined to paint a picture as optimistic as plausible for all three options. Why? Because it is preferable to the alternative. I do not like Destroy, but I would argue against a pessimistic interpretation just as passionately as I do for Synthesis. We all want a reasonably good outcome for the galaxy, regardless of our choice,...and we are writing the consequences, damn it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juin 2012 - 03:41 .

[Ieldra]

OP update. Added two entries to the fanfic section. I'm still appreciating pointers to anything Synthesis-related I could link in the OP - analyses, fanfic, thoughts about why your Shepard chose Synthesis etc..

[Aurora313]

You could also have Synthesis-themed fanarts. Though I haven't actually seen very many...

[Ieldra]

Yeah, there are very few. I have found this very beautiful image though, based on the style of the Athame temple art:


by StellarStateLogic.

I can easily imagine this "rendering of the legend" getting interpreted by scholars 10k years later. And they'd get it all wrong. Note how this omits any statement about the effects of Synthesis.

[Aurora313]

Indeed, it's a beautiful piece. I just wish I was skilled enough to draw some work myself...

and, you are equally correct. Like Liara misinterpreted the Protheans as scholars, they'd probably see Shepard as some kind of Messiah. While the character has shades of the Messiah theme, Shepard is a bastard and a saint just like every other human. They can lose patience, and act with ruthless effeciency. Especially in 3. They're probably misinterpret Shepard to be a wise(wo)man. Doesn't help that no matter what you do, Liara'll make you sound godlike as well in her timecapsule.

I'm working on writing a post-Synthesis story, though. Fear not. Admittedly though, it's my seldom used femshep and Kaidan pairing. Not as adept at writing Shenko as I am at Shepley, but I'll try. Not sure how long it'll take to finish though.

Modifié par Aurora313, 11 juin 2012 - 02:55 .

[Ieldra]

@Aurora:
Looking forward to reading your story. Please post it here when finished.

Also, here's the picture from which I made my sig. I found it somewhere on the net a few weeks ago, don't recall where. I think it captures the spirit of Synthesis very well:


Unfortunately, I don't know whom to credit.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juin 2012 - 03:44 .

[Ieldra]

I wonder....did anyone else choose Synthesis because it was something totally unprecedented? I mean, Control gets civilization back into the old worn-out tracks, Destroy sets you back to pre-relay times, perhaps even pre-FTL times if things go poorly. Synthesis is something new and exciting and does something to offset the destruction of the relays. When I played Deus Ex 1 back in 1999, I chose the Helios Merge for that reason: "OK, this hasn't been tried before. Let's do it."

[Aurora313]

To put a slightly cliched spin on it. People fear what is not understood and they fear leaping without looking. Admittedly, we have no understanding of what the hell Synthesis actually does. Though your theory is the closest to sense I've ever seen anyone make of it. I'd say that if it wasn't such a Deux ex ending (no offense) or if they had the original lead writer going through the ending (the one who wrote the three books. Deception did not happen.), then it would have made a hell of a lot more sense. Hell, if they just kept the original script, and maybe hinted a little more at the tech singularity in 2.

As I said on Jtav's forum. The galaxy is going to end up crapsacked anyway. If I can make it bearable, or give one small advantage to help recovery. Damn the morality, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...


This tired old thing again. Do Joker and EDI look like they've been Reaperized to you? Seriously, I can't believe how hard this misconception is to eradicate.

Shameless IT comment: "A mad man sees what he sees"

[jtav]

I'd like to discuss what I see as a potential downside on Synthesis. Networking ability and the ability to self-evolve, seem to be popular features so lets go with that. I can see this leading to tremendous pressure to conform. "Well, why don't you just modify your artistic taste/religious beliefs/ethical system?" How do we protect misfits and outliers in particular and preserve cultural diversity in general?

[KingZayd]

jtav wrote...

I'd like to discuss what I see as a potential downside on Synthesis. Networking ability and the ability to self-evolve, seem to be popular features so lets go with that. I can see this leading to tremendous pressure to conform. "Well, why don't you just modify your artistic taste/religious beliefs/ethical system?" How do we protect misfits and outliers in particular and preserve cultural diversity in general?

For an idea on how such a society might operate, you should read the Culture novels by Iain M Banks. Although there, there is a clear difference between AIs and organics, but the upgrades are done through genetic enhancement.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'd like to discuss what I see as a potential downside on Synthesis. Networking ability and the ability to self-evolve, seem to be popular features so lets go with that. I can see this leading to tremendous pressure to conform. "Well, why don't you just modify your artistic taste/religious beliefs/ethical system?" How do we protect misfits and outliers in particular and preserve cultural diversity in general?

In general, I think cultural diversity won't be a problem. Smaller subcultures have always had ways to thrive in the presence of the dominant stream, and people tend to be stubborn that way. I'd rather think more subcultures will form around all the new stuff.

But you have a point about misfits and outliers. While I don't think there will be more pressure to conform, the consequences if you decide to conform are possibly more severe. There will be laws and/or technical means against excesses - and some very unpleasant communities which will habitually break them. Hmm..... an interesting aspect. As I said elsewhere - there will be new horrors along with new wonders. The question of what is the core of your personality will have no single answer. LOL, I can see things like "personality insurance" come up. Make a backup of your mind, with a trigger to activate restoration under certain conditions. Eh....I'm playing too much Eclipse Phase...

@KingZayd:
How does the Culture do it? The Culture Minds are generally benevolent, so I guess they protect organics from themselves to some minimum degree? I've read two Culture books, but that aspect didn't come up.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[Xamufam]

Modifié par Troxa, 13 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[Vigilant111]

Troxa wrote...


Bioware ignores the fact that changin a living organisms entire DNA structure
instantly would be incredibly painful and undeniably lethal. Also it
takes YEARS for subtle gene therapy to work and using it increases the
risk of cancer and mutations.
Don't think many organics would live through the tranformation.

U know Ieldra2 has already dismissed the claim that synthesis is about changing DNA, but exactly how synthesis change anything remains in question since the most effective way to change a person's attributes is through genetic modification

[Ieldra]

Before replying, Troxa, it would be nice to read what you are replying to. Most Synthesis supporters see the "new...DNA" as metaphorical, evidenced by the pause before "DNA".

Also in my OP, I have addressed the most common objections except for the ethics (see other threads for that. This is about how Synthesis can work and its consequences, not if it should be done or not). Sorry but I am disinclined to go through your jumbled collection of quotes just to see if there's one I haven't addressed.

@Vigilant:
My scenario involves adding synthetic symbionts. No DNA is changed. Those symbionts can do the various other stuff we've been talking about, including changing DNA I guess, but that's up to individuals. As for how those symbionts are added using the Crucible, I put that down to "sufficiently advanced technology" and don't worry about it. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I'd like to discuss what I see as a potential downside on Synthesis. Networking ability and the ability to self-evolve, seem to be popular features so lets go with that. I can see this leading to tremendous pressure to conform. "Well, why don't you just modify your artistic taste/religious beliefs/ethical system?" How do we protect misfits and outliers in particular and preserve cultural diversity in general?

In general, I think cultural diversity won't be a problem. Smaller subcultures have always had ways to thrive in the presence of the dominant stream, and people tend to be stubborn that way. I'd rather think more subcultures will form around all the new stuff.

But you have a point about misfits and outliers. While I don't think there will be more pressure to conform, the consequences if you decide to conform are possibly more severe. There will be laws and/or technical means against excesses - and some very unpleasant communities which will habitually break them. Hmm..... an interesting aspect. As I said elsewhere - there will be new horrors along with new wonders. The question of what is the core of your personality will have no single answer. LOL, I can see things like "personality insurance" come up. Make a backup of your mind, with a trigger to activate restoration under certain conditions. Eh....I'm playing too much Eclipse Phase...

@KingZayd:
How does the Culture do it? The Culture Minds are generally benevolent, so I guess they protect organics from themselves to some minimum degree? I've read two Culture books, but that aspect didn't come up.

I've only read the first 2 myself. And the Minds have personalities just as diverse as the organics (sometimes benevolent, sometimes not so). Because the Minds tend to the smartest individuals, they do typically run things, although there are a few organics up there (apparently due to some intuitive ability to pick the right options).

Basically you pick whatever modifications you want based on what I've seen. Want special glands that secrete chemicals that will make you high/focused at will? get them. Want a... bigger more functional tool? apparently that's available too Nobody is forced to conform to "fit in"

Based on what I've seen, one negative point is that while there isn't any compulsion in the society, it's hard for any individual to make an impact possibility leading to feelings of insignificance.

Also, the  nature of competitive games has also changed, requiring a certain amount of chance to be implemented so that Minds can't just win by brute force calculation (somehow).

Modifié par KingZayd, 13 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[Aurora313]

I think that there would naturally be groups of 'Naturalists' or some kind of ethnic group that want to return to their pure organic/synthetic forms and a civil war could erupt. There could be mass suicides, some individuals could use their abilities to cause conflict or conciously elevate themselves about their peers.

If the ability to self-evolve is truly unlimited thanks to the synthetic symbiotes, then there would have to be laws laid down to keep an individual from becoming too advanced. Probably need some kind of specialised task forces to enforce them and hunt down the individuals that DO break the laws. With the power to ulitmately shape an individual's evolution, the temptation to simply keep going and surpass everything else would be very high.

Sorry if that makes no sense, or seems immature/improable. It's 2am here.

[Heeden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@KingZayd:
How does the Culture do it? The Culture Minds are generally benevolent, so I guess they protect organics from themselves to some minimum degree? I've read two Culture books, but that aspect didn't come up.

The Culture is a post-scarcity anarchic Utopia underlayed by a firm belief that all sentient beings deserve freedom and an incredibly effective e-democracy (for example the Culture will only go to war after a referendum involving all trillions of citizens, and anyone disagreeing with the outcome will be allowed to secede with no hard feelings and a generous helping hand).

[His Name was HYR!!]

I forgot this thread! ...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have this idea that the synthetic symbionts provide a base functionality, namely the mental networking and nothing else at the moment, but that new functionality can be researched. This is based on the reasoning that the more radical a change is, the more social upheaval it will cause. Those who built the Synthesis option into the Crucible would have known this. Perhaps energy efficiency, internal diagnostics and an improved immune system could be included in the basic functionality with little difficulty resulting from it, but self-rejuvenating bodies really shouldn't. Alternative methods of energy intake are also a possibility.

Interesting point. I kind of assumed we'd be aware of any/all changes, but I can see how maybe we would be until further development. It would explain why Joker/squadmates act no differently walking out of the Normandy in the end.

[Leafs43]

Synthesis- The idea that you agree with the reapers that organics need to evolve into a synthetic hybrid.  Reapers themselves are organic-synthetic hybrids.



You sold your soul and everyone elses soul to the reaper king.

Modifié par Leafs43, 13 juin 2012 - 09:13 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

General User wrote...

1.) While networking minds together would be efficient communication, I don't think organics would all go mute and never talk again, but do whatever suits the situation. I think there would be an ettiquette to this new medium of communication, like with anything else.

Sounds more like a novelty.  And not a neccesarily a particularly beneficial one at that.  After all what would the point of communicating at lightning speed if things worth hearing are so few and far between?  There's such a thing as information overload too.  The more nonsense and drivel one has access to (or is bombarded with, as the case may be), that harder it is to pick out what's of any worth.

Actually I think it would be of great use in the event of brainstorming, researching, and reaching agreements. Especially if/when time is of the essence. The high-speed communication ability would effectively lead to less time being wasted on what's unimportant.

2.) Food and sleep come to mind when talking about "energy" in organics. To clarify, I'm not saying it would be eliminated. Both have their benefits, and synthesis sought to bring together the best of both worlds. So, we would still eat/sleep for the benefits of doing so, but we may be more efficient in our usage of that energy (not sleep as long, not require overwhelming nutitional needs).

Lose weight while sitting on the couch, huh?  I've seen that commercial.

Weight loss? Lame. That would probably be the least of the benefits behind reduced food/sleep requirements.

3.) Many organics have built-in synthetic equipment: Shepard, Garrus, biotics, quarians. Post-synthesis, its possible an organic could "connect" with it and make sure it's running soundly. Run "diagnostics" to check for issues of health.

You mean a medical exam?  Those already existed.  Dr. Chakwas did one of Shepard's implants in a few seconds.

I'm thinking of more difficult cases, like Jack and Kaidan's implants. Jack's caused neural degeneration, Kaidan's caused migraines. I could see their bodies accept those parts without the complications.

4.) Synthetics aren't really immortal. It is said so in the game, but I disagree. They can die as any other machine can die - equipment/battery failure. Similar to organics that die of natural causes. And they can be killed, of course. In any case, it is not a desirable outcome (to be immortal). But I could buy that synthesis could improve our life span. Especially if the above is true.

That too is already happening before Synthesis.  Don't get me wrong, it would still make for a dramatic benefit, just not a particularly revolutionary one.

It doesn't have to be revolutionary. Afterall, organics should stay relatively mortal.

In all these cases, it seems that Synthesis promises not so much improvements as shortcuts. 
Worth taking?  Not always.

Minor benefits would still make it a more attractive option to me than the other two, but I disagree that they're only minor.

Also, you missed the point that I felt was most significant - improvement in intelligence, learning.

[Aurora313]

Found another syntheis themed image. I find it quite beautiful.

Forgive me, I wanted to display it, but I don't entirely understand how to get the thumb to work.


Nope. Can't get it to work.

Modifié par Aurora313, 14 juin 2012 - 11:17 .

[Ieldra]

Nice. Very.....symbolic. I'll help you out with the tags:


"ME3: Synthesis" by yllaella.

As for embedding images, do this:

{img} image url {/img} (replace the {}s with []s). Quote this post and hit the "BBCode" button to see how it's done in this post.