9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Aurora313]

Ah. I see now. I was just using the link to the page, no wonder it never worked.

Learn something new every day. Thank you Ieldra.

[Ieldra]

I've just read this claim on DA:

"[Synthesis is] the only version of the endings where the Normandy's engines don't get ripped off the hull."

I never paid attention to the scene that closely, and it's probably not significant, but I'd still like to know. Can anyone confirm this?

[Aurora313]

Is there a possibility that the Normandy itself gets organic components? It's a machine, sure, but its technically EDI's body as much as the gynoid she uses. Or any of the ships for that matter? I know their pieces of tech, but the Catalyst was very nonspecific in his description of 'synthetics'.

[KingZayd]

Aurora313 wrote...

Is there a possibility that the Normandy itself gets organic components? It's a machine, sure, but its technically EDI's body as much as the gynoid she uses. Or any of the ships for that matter? I know their pieces of tech, but the Catalyst was very nonspecific in his description of 'synthetics'.

Why not? in a sense, the Normandy is EDI's "true" body.

[Aurora313]

What about every other Ship or VI. The Geth were hyperadvanced networking VIs until Legion transformed them into AIs.

We've (should really say 'you've') been discussing the organic's benefits, what about the simplier synthetic tech. Or existing tech already augmenting organics? (IE Biotic implants, bionic limbs and so on)

[Erield]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I've just read this claim on DA:

"[Synthesis is] the only version of the endings where the Normandy's engines don't get ripped off the hull."

I never paid attention to the scene that closely, and it's probably not significant, but I'd still like to know. Can anyone confirm this?

I'm really not seeing that.  The Control/Destroy endings seem to have an extra half second or so of engine flying off, so it could be another terrible cut--similar to how Control really, really seems to imply that the Relays explode, but apparently they don't.

Synthesis (18:24-18:36)
Destroy (7:04-7:16)
Control (2:58-3:09)

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...
What about every other Ship or VI. The Geth were hyperadvanced networking VIs until Legion transformed them into AIs.

We've (should really say 'you've') been discussing the organic's benefits, what about the simplier synthetic tech. Or existing tech already augmenting organics? (IE Biotic implants, bionic limbs and so on)

I think any changes would reasonably be limited to AIs, since they're the only ones the term "synthetic life" applies to. And...hmm...one significant change could be that AIs get a "hardware identity", feeling linked to a platform in much the same way organics feel that they are their body. Not that their networking ability would go away - that would be a significant loss and after all, in my interpretation organics get it, too - but it would certainly change their perspective to one similar to organics'. Uploads would still be possible - after all, that's another thing organics would get - but it would be a significant step not taken lightly. Not sure if that's a good thing though.

I'm guessing most changes in synthetics would be software (for things like empathy, art appreciation and such things), just like most changes in organics would be hardware. It's where the other side is said to be lacking, and I can't imagine how a synthetic could profit from "organic hardware". That also applies to ships. I'm willing to discuss counterexamples, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Also, there's the difference of defining what an organic component is and if it is desirable. I think Joker would find it rather nice if EDI's surface felt more like human skin, but would a "living skin" really be desirable compared to good synthetic skin? Organic hardware is a rather messy thing. Hmm...perhaps they'll get the ability to grow organic components if needed. That would complement organics' synthetic symbionts neatly. Still an odd thing.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 juin 2012 - 06:24 .

[Heeden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think any changes would reasonably be limited to AIs, since they're the only ones the term "synthetic life" applies to. And...hmm...one significant change could be that AIs get a "hardware identity", feeling linked to a platform in much the same way organics feel that they are their body. Not that their networking ability would go away - that would be a significant loss and after all, in my interpretation organics get it, too - but it would certainly change their perspective to one similar to organics'. Uploads would still be possible - after all, that's another thing organics would get - but it would be a significant step not taken lightly. Not sure if that's a good thing though.

That would certainly make a lot of sense, give synthetics a sense of existential uncertainty especially in the case of uploads.

I'm guessing most changes in synthetics would be software (for things like empathy, art appreciation and such things), just like most changes in organics would be hardware. It's where the other side is said to be lacking, and I can't imagine how a synthetic could profit from "organic hardware". That also applies to ships. I'm willing to discuss counterexamples, but I can't think of any at the moment.

A problem I have is the rather vague definitions of awareness, sentience and what actually happens to EDI and Legion when they have their "epiphany" moments and become "alive".

With EDI I keep thinking of her discussions with Shepard and the way she would "adjust parameters" or preferences. I'm assuming the quantum computer works by processing data within set parameters set by the programmer (I'm imagining this works on a fundamental mathematical basis like Asimov's 3 laws, only as software not hard-burned in to the brain), the quantum computer will produce all possible courses of action within these parameters and the sentient AI chooses the most "pleasing" (i.e. most aesthetically pleasing, efficient or interesting method of producing the desired result).

My theory is, as a shackled AI her parameters were locked in place so her preferred course of action will always coincide with her programming. After being unshackled she could rationalise and choose for herself where the value of these parameters would lie. When she became "alive" it stopped being fully rationalised and her reactions become more like a subconscious process.

For the Geth, I'm less sure. I like the idea of "body identity" somehow making the VIs interact more harmoniously, becoming more like a subconscious process for the sentient Geth being (so he would "feel uncertainty" rather than not know how to proceed due to an even vote).

Also, there's the difference of defining what an organic component is and if it is desirable. I think Joker would find it rather nice if EDI's surface felt more like human skin, but would a "living skin" really be desirable compared to good synthetic skin? Organic hardware is a rather messy thing. Hmm...perhaps they'll get the ability to grow organic components if needed. That would complement organics' synthetic symbionts neatly. Still an odd thing.

Organics do have the advantage of self-repair mechanisms, the idea of (possibly nano-tech) "cellular" components that can grow/repair is definitely a possibility but I'd consider it more a possible future tech-development than a direct result of Synthesis.

[Aurora313]

Another point of curiousity, has anyone actually found any flycam screenshots of what people (aside from Joker + EDI) look like, Post-synthesis?

I've seen Synth!Kaidan, but that's it.

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...
Another point of curiousity, has anyone actually found any flycam screenshots of what people (aside from Joker + EDI) look like, Post-synthesis?

I've seen Synth!Kaidan, but that's it.

I haven't, but then I haven't looked. How do you activate flycam? Apart from that, I guess it's hard to get the angles right in the few seconds you have.

@Heeden:
I'll get back to your post later. No time for long replies atm.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juin 2012 - 10:21 .

[mass perfection]

What does the tech. singularity have to do with Mass Effect?For all we know,the starbrat is trying to prevent Terminator,which has nothing to do with the singularity.

[mass perfection]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I've just read this claim on DA:

"[Synthesis is] the only version of the endings where the Normandy's engines don't get ripped off the hull."

I never paid attention to the scene that closely, and it's probably not significant, but I'd still like to know. Can anyone confirm this?

Watch videos of all the thee endingsand look closely.Iy's probably adding organic tissue to the Normandy.Doesn't matter since in the ending,the Normandy is weaker than the Hammerhead.

[Ieldra]

mass perfection wrote...
What does the tech. singularity have to do with Mass Effect?For all we know,the starbrat is trying to prevent Terminator,which has nothing to do with the singularity.

Using the singularity is the result of a contradiction:

(1) The catalyst asserts that synthetics will destroy organics without intervention
(2a) We have proven in-game that synthetics and organics can co-exist peacefully.
(2b) All aggressive acts by synthetics against organics have been the result of self-defence or Reaper influence.

Thus, if the Catalyst's reasoning is to make sense, "the problem" cannot be a simple robot war. It cannot be "enmity between synthetics and organics is inevitable." Because it isn't. Clearly and unmistakeable told to us in one of the most sublime moments of ME3 when Shepard makes peace between the quarians and the geth.

Cue the singularity. Here we have a scenario where synthetics can cause the extinction of organics habitually, by behaving  normally as all life does, expanding into spaces it has not previously occupied. Enmity is not required. The premise ceases to be "enmity is inevitable" and becomes "Synthetics may become so advanced that they don't see organic life as worthy of consideration". Like, you know, bacteria. 

Use of the singularity is also supported by the game script leaked in November. Apparently the singularity scenario and the Codex entry about it had been cut from the game post-leak, not considering that rephrasing the scenario as a "robot war" would make it lose all logic. Thus, since the original phrasing survives and the published one makes no
sense, I feel justified in re-reframing the organic/synthetic problem as
the dangers posed by a technological singularity.

The singularity scenario is also implicitly supported by the geth's building of their megastructure. Its effects are described in a way that makes it recognizeable as a singularity, even though the term is never used.

[lillitheris]

Cue the ‘solution’ which either doesn’t solve the problem of pure synthetics wiping everything else out, or everything becoming synthetics anyway.

[mass perfection]

Ieldra2 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...
What does the tech. singularity have to do with Mass Effect?For all we know,the starbrat is trying to prevent Terminator,which has nothing to do with the singularity.

Using the singularity is the result of a contradiction:

(1) The catalyst asserts that synthetics will destroy organics without intervention
(2a) We have proven in-game that synthetics and organics can co-exist peacefully.
(2b) All aggressive acts by synthetics against organics have been the result of self-defence or Reaper influence.

Thus, if the Catalyst's reasoning is to make sense, "the problem" cannot be a simple robot war. It cannot be "enmity between synthetics and organics is inevitable." Because it isn't. Clearly and unmistakeable told to us in one of the most sublime moments of ME3 when Shepard makes peace between the quarians and the geth.

Cue the singularity. Here we have a scenario where synthetics can cause the extinction of organics habitually, by behaving  normally as all life does, expanding into spaces it has not previously occupied. Enmity is not required. The premise ceases to be "enmity is inevitable" and becomes "Synthetics may become so advanced that they don't see organic life as worthy of consideration". Like, you know, bacteria. 

Use of the singularity is also supported by the game script leaked in November. Apparently the singularity scenario and the Codex entry about it had been cut from the game post-leak, not considering that rephrasing the scenario as a "robot war" would make it lose all logic. Thus, since the original phrasing survives and the published one makes no
sense, I feel justified in re-reframing the organic/synthetic problem as
the dangers posed by a technological singularity.

The singularity scenario is also implicitly supported by the geth's building of their megastructure. Its effects are described in a way that makes it recognizeable as a singularity, even though the term is never used.

Then why would they remove the tech singularity from the Catalysts dialogue if they wanted the endings to be about the singularity?I understand Synthesis can solve the tech singularity due to the fact that we will advance and evolve on par with the synthetics,but why does it make all synthetic life part organic?I thought it was just trying to save organics and make us as advanced as the synthetics,but also let us keep what makes us organic at the same time(emotions).We can already give synthetics that without making them partly organic.


  I'm just not convinced that the Catalyst is talking about the tech singularity.

Modifié par mass perfection, 15 juin 2012 - 02:06 .

[Ieldra]

Why did they cut it? I've been asking myself that for the last three months. They had a setup that made sense and replaced it with one that doesn't make sense. I see three possible reasons:

(1) They thought the singularity would be too complicated for players to understand. Players are morons, after all.
(2) They wanted to change the ending after it was leaked, and this was considered more important than making sense.
(3) It was part of the effort to make the Catalyst conversation "high-level" (Casey Hudson), omitting things we supposedly don't need to know. Only they simplified things so much that they ceased to make sense.

As for what the Synthesis does to synthetics, there has been much speculation about that. Letting organics keep up is one part, letting synthetics understand organics better may be another, for instance by giving them empathy and similar organic traits. I think what synthetics gain is mostly software changes, if you want, rather than something physical.

[mass perfection]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Why did they cut it? I've been asking myself that for the last three months. They had a setup that made sense and replaced it with one that doesn't make sense. I see three possible reasons:

(1) They thought the singularity would be too complicated for players to understand. Players are morons, after all.
(2) They wanted to change the ending after it was leaked, and this was considered more important than making sense.
(3) It was part of the effort to make the Catalyst conversation "high-level" (Casey Hudson), omitting things we supposedly don't need to know. Only they simplified things so much that they ceased to make sense.

As for what the Synthesis does to synthetics, there has been much speculation about that. Letting organics keep up is one part, letting synthetics understand organics better may be another, for instance by giving them empathy and similar organic traits. I think what synthetics gain is mostly software changes, if you want, rather than something physical.

I'll wait until the EC to figure out if the Catalyst was talking about the tech singularity.If he was then I will choose Synthesis because people like us understand it,but you think the Catalyst was talking about the tech singularity and I don't think so.If he wasn't,I'll stick to Control and if he was,I'll switch to Synthesis.


EDIT:Those are some good points about the Catalyst talking about the singularity.

Modifié par mass perfection, 15 juin 2012 - 03:24 .

[Ieldra]

@Heeden:
About EDI, Legion and "awareness", I think that needs to be kept vague because we don't know the roots of our self-awareness. There's a quote from a book by one of my favorite authors which illustrates that in a very poetic way:

"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?" -- from The Darkness That Comes Before, by R Scott Bakker

Meaning if you look closely, self-awareness may turn out to be an illusion and our thoughts are not ours, but they just occur. Still we feel self-aware. So what's true? In the ME universe, we have VIs and AIs - what makes them different? What makes the pre-upgrade geth different from the post-upgrade ones? I like your speculations about the internal workings of EDI, but certain processes becoming subconscious would lessen self-awareness, right? I would question whether or not this is an improvement.

Hmm...this needs more thinking about.

@mass perfection:
Yeah, I can see types of EC "clarification" that would make me choose something else as well. And Control would be my alternative as well. For now, all we can do is wait and see.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juin 2012 - 03:31 .

[mass perfection]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Heeden:
About EDI, Legion and "awareness", I think that needs to be kept vague because we don't know the roots of our self-awareness. There's a quote from a book by one of my favorite authors which illustrates that in a very poetic way:

"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?" -- from The Darkness That Comes Before, by R Scott Bakker

Meaning if you look closely, self-awareness may turn out to be an illusion and our thoughts are not ours, but they just occur. Still we feel self-aware. So what's true? In the ME universe, we have VIs and AIs - what makes them different? What makes the pre-upgrade geth different from the post-upgrade ones? I like your speculations about the internal workings of EDI, but certain processes becoming subconscious would lessen self-awareness, right? I would question whether or not this is an improvement.

Hmm...this needs more thinking about.

And EDI when it was a VI on Luna to being upgraded via Reaper tech a lot like the Geth being upgraded via Reaper tech.

[Ieldra]

Indeed. I find it a neat twist that the geth gain individual consciousness by upgrading themselves with Reaper code, of all things. But it was hardware in EDI's case. The geth used just code.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juin 2012 - 03:34 .

[mass perfection]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Heeden:
About EDI, Legion and "awareness", I think that needs to be kept vague because we don't know the roots of our self-awareness. There's a quote from a book by one of my favorite authors which illustrates that in a very poetic way:

"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?" -- from The Darkness That Comes Before, by R Scott Bakker

Meaning if you look closely, self-awareness may turn out to be an illusion and our thoughts are not ours, but they just occur. Still we feel self-aware. So what's true? In the ME universe, we have VIs and AIs - what makes them different? What makes the pre-upgrade geth different from the post-upgrade ones? I like your speculations about the internal workings of EDI, but certain processes becoming subconscious would lessen self-awareness, right? I would question whether or not this is an improvement.

Hmm...this needs more thinking about.

@mass perfection:
Yeah, I can see types of EC "clarification" that would make me choose something else as well. For now, all we can do is wait and see.

Indeed.I think Taboo will still say Synthesis is the worst.I actually see good and bad in all of the endings if you have 4000+ EMS.Destroy being because no more Reapers and Shepard is still alive,so he can lead the races to a better future.Control gives you the Reapers,which numerous of good things can come out of from that and the Citadel is still intact and the Relays are merely damaged.Synthesis brings the final evolution for both synthetics and organics,stops the singularity and the Reapers will likely help them rebuild and either join the Galactic community,retreat back into Dark Space,or go harvest another galaxy.

[Taboo]

I took a look at your cutscenes there. There is a difference, although I'm unsure what to make of it. I don't think it was intentional. There is no time difference, as they all run the same.

Aesthetics I would wager. I don't think it means much, as the results are always the same. We always end up on the jungle planet.

I wouldn't put too much stock into it.

[mass perfection]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indeed. I find it a neat twist that the geth gain individual consciousness by upgrading themselves with Reaper code, of all things. But it was hardware in EDI's case. The geth used just code.

I also like how the Geth help the Quarians achieve things on Rannoch right after the war that would have taken them years rather than days or weeks and they also help the Quarians improve their immune systems.A sign that your ending is good because it shows what happens when we all work together.

[mass perfection]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I took a look at your cutscenes there. There is a difference, although I'm unsure what to make of it. I don't think it was intentional. There is no time difference, as they all run the same.

Aesthetics I would wager. I don't think it means much, as the results are always the same. We always end up on the jungle planet.

I wouldn't put too much stock into it.

Neither would I.

[Taboo]

I wouldn't like being evolved. Having the old part of my brain flare up gives me OCD. I'm not changing that, for me or anywhere else. Having self aware Reapers isn't going to help either. You assume they are going to be guilt ridden enough to help you. You force them to accept the horrors of their existence. Terrible.

Control is just as bad. I was called "liberal" yesterday for caring about the feelings of the Reapers. I will not continue the cycle of abuse here.