9087 réponses à ce sujet

[Veneke]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Was he deceiving you about Destroy and Control? They did exactly what he said they would do. Unless the Reapers fell over in the red explosion, then got right back up again when the cameras turned off, is that what you're claiming?

 
Huh, I never thought to use the Destroy/Control endings as proof of the Catalyst telling the truth. It's still not justification to trust him on the first playthrough or from Shep's POV though.

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But this is an infinate universe. The don't need the same sources of materials or even need the same matrials as we do. And base on what the geth were building, they don't even need bodies...

It may be an infinite universe but most of it is really far away, and why should they bother about a few ants getting crushed when they want to build a galactic-scale Dyson-sphere. The key comes down to what they desire - what's at the base of their program. Reapers are bad enough from our perspective, imagine ones that didn't have the same restraint and sense of fair-play.

Base on to what the geth were building....The geth don't even need or want too move. Why synthetics want the things I eat when they can get it anywhere? Say they weill attack just because is saying they have logic of a child...They don't.

You can't predict what the geth-reaper could or would do - even Legion had no idea. You can't predict what every potential AI produced by every race in the galaxy over billions of years will do. The Catalyst initiated the Reaper cycle and he gives every indication of actually quite liking organics, surely you can see the potential for something worse happening.

[dreman9999]

Veneke wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What you not understanding is why trust the starchild and if your even understanding what the starchild means by his vague explinations? He is the one that offers synthesis, he's the one that understand how it works...You don't. The vague explination leaves the understanding of it open to interpretation but what ever you think it means is irrelivent....What is is what the starchild know what it means because what he knows what it mean is how it is going to be applied. Can you trust the star child with his past actions and vague explinations?

 
That's a valid objection. The honest answer is I don't know why you would trust the starchild from an ingame point of view. It makes no sense to trust him. It only makes sense if you think about it from the player's (and not Shep's) point of view.
 
The fact is that the starchild must be telling the truth because of the narrative issues that arise if he is not. If he is lying then the endings collapse under their own weight - see Indoc. Theory. If he's lying then there are bigger questions than those that already exist, such as why lie to Shep/player? Lying would also call into question everything about starchild and considering his late entry and the fact that he's the only interaction you have with the endings it'd be stupidity on a collosal scale to have him lie to the player without it being very clear that he's lying.
 
Ask yourself this though: At any point in the ME series has any character ever lied to you where it didn't become apparent that he was lying?

Well, Synthesis is a much faster way to control organics then havesting them every 50000 years.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

It could be. A conversation point you'd have thought might have been included in the ending if it were true. OTOH, if that was the case - why not just have the Reapers build the Crucible themselves and toss some random sod in there?

1.Even base on the players pointof veiw it makes no sense. We have a thrid eye one the entire series...And we are give fact time and time agein not to trust the reapers...And the starchild is part of the reapers.
Also, the point your trying to make shows that bw has a great way to fool players.
2. Because they clear did not know it can be don't...That what being at the pinical of evolution of technology does to you.....You think you are at the very best and never try for better.

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. That doesn't mean he lost control the reapers as soon as the crucible was parked and it's not like he is not trying the control the situation any way.

2. Based on synthesis they ae not need because they already did what they want but faster...Control organic life.
Also,in control....What I see is them leaving the one army the had any way traped in the sol system as they harvest the rest of the galexy...

1. He didn't lose control of the Reapers; but his programming was changed so that he could see other options besides Reaping for stopping Chaos. "You have hope, more than you think - the fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves that my Solution won't work anymore."

2a. What makes you think Synthesis controls anyone? Are Joker and EDI controlled? What proof do you have?
2b. Oh, we're playing "make up details that aren't shown to fit my interpretation!" Great, here's mine - in Destroy, the Reapers simply tripped and fell over. When they got back up, they wiped out the human race and won the war. Destroy = game over, the end. The N7 armor breathing scene wasn't shepard at all, it was actually Vega, who had gotten his N7 armor right before the final battle without you knowing.

Yeah, that was fun! :innocent:

[Veneke]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. That doesn't mean he lost control the reapers as soon as the crucible was parked and it's not like he is not trying the control the situation any way.

2. Based on synthesis they ae not need because they already did what they want but faster...Control organic life.
Also,in control....What I see is them leaving the one army the had any way traped in the sol system as they harvest the rest of the galexy...

Come now, that's just ridiculous. You're saying that he's fully lying about Synthesis, partially lying in Control and only showing you what you want to see in Destroy?

[PsyrenY]

Veneke wrote...

Huh, I never thought to use the Destroy/Control endings as proof of the Catalyst telling the truth. It's still not justification to trust him on the first playthrough or from Shep's POV though.

From Shepard's POV, there is one reason to trust him - he has nothing to gain from lying, or indeed talking to you at all. He could have left you on the floor and won the war. The fact that he pulled you up there means that the Crucible worked - it made him willing to talk. And if the Crucible did that much, the options he is presenting are also logically coming from the Crucible, and can thus be believed.

In other words, you're not trusting the Catalyst so much as you are trusting the Crucible. The kid is just the mouthpiece.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But this is an infinate universe. The don't need the same sources of materials or even need the same matrials as we do. And base on what the geth were building, they don't even need bodies...

It may be an infinite universe but most of it is really far away, and why should they bother about a few ants getting crushed when they want to build a galactic-scale Dyson-sphere. The key comes down to what they desire - what's at the base of their program. Reapers are bad enough from our perspective, imagine ones that didn't have the same restraint and sense of fair-play.

Base on to what the geth were building....The geth don't even need or want too move. Why synthetics want the things I eat when they can get it anywhere? Say they weill attack just because is saying they have logic of a child...They don't.

You can't predict what the geth-reaper could or would do - even Legion had no idea. You can't predict what every potential AI produced by every race in the galaxy over billions of years will do. The Catalyst initiated the Reaper cycle and he gives every indication of actually quite liking organics, surely you can see the potential for something worse happening.

It would not be a reaper...Remeber"That more your(organics) future then ours(geth)"
On that not, you proving that the reaper are right to try to control organics. Yu seeing conlict in something you don't or can't understand....Theirs a 50/50 chance the synthetic will one day attack and that alone give you reason to want to attack, even if it not in the nature of synthetic to attack with no reason. That's my point. Organics cause the conflict based on their nature. That is what the reaper fear will happen, that is what Legion was trying to point out to you on rennoch in the geth consesus. We cause the conflict based on are nature.
Our lack of trust...Thsi is also ironic that you are able to quell this nature for some AI you randoment because he showedyou some shiny tech you can get.....If funnier because it's the very first trip the reapers used to lure organics in to the mass realy trap.

[Veneke]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Even base on the players pointof veiw it makes no sense. We have a thrid eye one the entire series...And we are give fact time and time agein not to trust the reapers...And the starchild is part of the reapers.
Also, the point your trying to make shows that bw has a great way to fool players.
2. Because they clear did not know it can be don't...That what being at the pinical of evolution of technology does to you.....You think you are at the very best and never try for better.

 
1. You're confusing Shep's perspective ingame and the player's perspective here. Shep is given no reason to trust them. Reapers don't exist for us... at least, we all presumably hope they don't. We're able to see that the Catalyst is a Deus Ex Machina device in a way that Shep is not. As such, our ability to tell whether he's lying or not is greater than his because we know that the story arc is coming to an end.
2. What?

As for Bioware fooling its player base that just doesn't stack up. If it was the case then at least one of the endings should show that - someone has to be in on the joke otherwise its just Bioware laughing at us... which frankly isn't something to be seriously considered.

[Veneke]

Optimystic_X wrote...

From Shepard's POV, there is one reason to trust him - he has nothing to gain from lying, or indeed talking to you at all. He could have left you on the floor and won the war. The fact that he pulled you up there means that the Crucible worked - it made him willing to talk. And if the Crucible did that much, the options he is presenting are also logically coming from the Crucible, and can thus be believed.

In other words, you're not trusting the Catalyst so much as you are trusting the Crucible. The kid is just the mouthpiece.

 
That's fair alright. I think it's a bit weak, not in terms of logic or anything it's just that ingame it isn't really covered very well, but definitely soliid.

[dreman9999]

Veneke wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. That doesn't mean he lost control the reapers as soon as the crucible was parked and it's not like he is not trying the control the situation any way.

2. Based on synthesis they ae not need because they already did what they want but faster...Control organic life.
Also,in control....What I see is them leaving the one army the had any way traped in the sol system as they harvest the rest of the galexy...

Come now, that's just ridiculous. You're saying that he's fully lying about Synthesis, partially lying in Control and only showing you what you want to see in Destroy?

Machine with a history of great deceptions.
Add you missed the fact that no of the options solve the problem the star child persent but he guarantees the cyclle will end in Synthesis, he guarantee's it will come back with destroy but says not not about it during his explination of control. Note that reapers control organics with implants and you "compining organics and synthetics" in synthesis.....

[Sisterofshane]

Veneke wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

From Shepard's POV, there is one reason to trust him - he has nothing to gain from lying, or indeed talking to you at all. He could have left you on the floor and won the war. The fact that he pulled you up there means that the Crucible worked - it made him willing to talk. And if the Crucible did that much, the options he is presenting are also logically coming from the Crucible, and can thus be believed.

In other words, you're not trusting the Catalyst so much as you are trusting the Crucible. The kid is just the mouthpiece.

 
That's fair alright. I think it's a bit weak, not in terms of logic or anything it's just that ingame it isn't really covered very well, but definitely soliid.

One problem with that assumption is that he also pulls you up to talk when the only option available is destroy.  Why would he allow you to complete what is essentially a non-solution to his problem?

I think it's safe to assume that the Crucible manages to somehow override the Catalyst's control.

[dreman9999]

Veneke wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.Even base on the players pointof veiw it makes no sense. We have a thrid eye one the entire series...And we are give fact time and time agein not to trust the reapers...And the starchild is part of the reapers.
Also, the point your trying to make shows that bw has a great way to fool players.
2. Because they clear did not know it can be don't...That what being at the pinical of evolution of technology does to you.....You think you are at the very best and never try for better.

 
1. You're confusing Shep's perspective ingame and the player's perspective here. Shep is given no reason to trust them. Reapers don't exist for us... at least, we all presumably hope they don't. We're able to see that the Catalyst is a Deus Ex Machina device in a way that Shep is not. As such, our ability to tell whether he's lying or not is greater than his because we know that the story arc is coming to an end.
2. What?

As for Bioware fooling its player base that just doesn't stack up. If it was the case then at least one of the endings should show that - someone has to be in on the joke otherwise its just Bioware laughing at us... which frankly isn't something to be seriously considered.

1. I'm not.It not the player experiance alown that shows the reaper can't be trusted...Theirs ME:relivation and retribution and the codex. We are shown the reapers are not to be trusted. And the catalyst, the more I think about it, is not a deux.....It solves nothing for him....2 choice give up the reapers and the 3r we don't even know we really beat them.
2 .Because they clear did not know it can be done...That what being at the pinical of evolution of technology does to you.....You think you are at the very best and never try for better.
It been stated the being in a tenhnological singualrity deturse technologiacl advances. It's because the concept of need that is needed to advance or want to advance is lost. The reapers don't have any reason to try to advance because they don't have any needs any more.

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

You can't predict what the geth-reaper could or would do - even Legion had no idea. You can't predict what every potential AI produced by every race in the galaxy over billions of years will do. The Catalyst initiated the Reaper cycle and he gives every indication of actually quite liking organics, surely you can see the potential for something worse happening.

It would not be a reaper...Remeber"That more your(organics) future then ours(geth)"
On that not, you proving that the reaper are right to try to control organics. Yu seeing conlict in something you don't or can't understand....Theirs a 50/50 chance the synthetic will one day attack and that alone give you reason to want to attack, even if it not in the nature of synthetic to attack with no reason. That's my point. Organics cause the conflict based on their nature. That is what the reaper fear will happen, that is what Legion was trying to point out to you on rennoch in the geth consesus. We cause the conflict based on are nature.
Our lack of trust...Thsi is also ironic that you are able to quell this nature for some AI you randoment because he showedyou some shiny tech you can get.....If funnier because it's the very first trip the reapers used to lure organics in to the mass realy trap.

Apologies, I wrote "Geth-reaoer" because Dyson-sphere always makes me think of vacuum cleaner and "Geth technological construct that would give them consciousness equivalent to or at least approaching that of a Reaper" seemed a bit long-winded. You can't get around the fact that the Geth Dyson sphere may come to the decision that organics are a threat and need exterminating. It may even come to that decision after an unprovoked attack and be quite right in that decision. However the rights and wrongs of any potential threat from the Geth doesn't come in to it - the threat still exists and from the Catalyst's perspective that threat is an intrinsic part of organics being allowed to develop their societies beyond a certain point.

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. That doesn't mean he lost control the reapers as soon as the crucible was parked and it's not like he is not trying the control the situation any way.

2. Based on synthesis they ae not need because they already did what they want but faster...Control organic life.
Also,in control....What I see is them leaving the one army the had any way traped in the sol system as they harvest the rest of the galexy...

1. He didn't lose control of the Reapers; but his programming was changed so that he could see other options besides Reaping for stopping Chaos. "You have hope, more than you think - the fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves that my Solution won't work anymore."

2a. What makes you think Synthesis controls anyone? Are Joker and EDI controlled? What proof do you have?
2b. Oh, we're playing "make up details that aren't shown to fit my interpretation!" Great, here's mine - in Destroy, the Reapers simply tripped and fell over. When they got back up, they wiped out the human race and won the war. Destroy = game over, the end. The N7 armor breathing scene wasn't shepard at all, it was actually Vega, who had gotten his N7 armor right before the final battle without you knowing.

Yeah, that was fun! :innocent:

1. One of those options was a faster way to control all orgaincs.

2.Reaper implants control organics, sysnthetics code can be over written by reaper code. Synthesis allows the star child to implant eveyone...Joker and EDI are being made happy...What is stopping the starchild from doing this?

[PsyrenY]

Sisterofshane wrote...

One problem with that assumption is that he also pulls you up to talk when the only option available is destroy.  Why would he allow you to complete what is essentially a non-solution to his problem?

Because he's not "allowing it" at all. The Crucible forces him to do so, because it changed him.

In fact, when only Destroy is available, he is visibly upset/frustrated with you, or perhaps with humanity/organics in general. But he has to bring you up there anyway, even knowing that the one option available is a pointless exercis (in his estimation, in the long run) because the Crucible makes him. Its options can therefore be trusted.

Sisterofshane wrote... 
I think it's safe to assume that the Crucible manages to somehow override the Catalyst's control.

Precisely. So all this talk about "machines with a history of deception" or whatever Dreman is saying is irrelevant. The Crucible is what matters here, and it has no capacity to deceive.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

You can't predict what the geth-reaper could or would do - even Legion had no idea. You can't predict what every potential AI produced by every race in the galaxy over billions of years will do. The Catalyst initiated the Reaper cycle and he gives every indication of actually quite liking organics, surely you can see the potential for something worse happening.

It would not be a reaper...Remeber"That more your(organics) future then ours(geth)"
On that not, you proving that the reaper are right to try to control organics. Yu seeing conlict in something you don't or can't understand....Theirs a 50/50 chance the synthetic will one day attack and that alone give you reason to want to attack, even if it not in the nature of synthetic to attack with no reason. That's my point. Organics cause the conflict based on their nature. That is what the reaper fear will happen, that is what Legion was trying to point out to you on rennoch in the geth consesus. We cause the conflict based on are nature.
Our lack of trust...Thsi is also ironic that you are able to quell this nature for some AI you randoment because he showedyou some shiny tech you can get.....If funnier because it's the very first trip the reapers used to lure organics in to the mass realy trap.

Apologies, I wrote "Geth-reaoer" because Dyson-sphere always makes me think of vacuum cleaner and "Geth technological construct that would give them consciousness equivalent to or at least approaching that of a Reaper" seemed a bit long-winded. You can't get around the fact that the Geth Dyson sphere may come to the decision that organics are a threat and need exterminating. It may even come to that decision after an unprovoked attack and be quite right in that decision. However the rights and wrongs of any potential threat from the Geth doesn't come in to it - the threat still exists and from the Catalyst's perspective that threat is an intrinsic part of organics being allowed to develop their societies beyond a certain point.

Again, you have to come up with a reason why it would or the needs it has that would to even say it would attack....Other wise your just looking for conflit were it's not....Like the reaper think organics will do and that has been shown organics have done.

[Heeden]

One problem with that assumption is that he also pulls you up to talk when the only option available is destroy.  Why would he allow you to complete what is essentially a non-solution to his problem?

I think it's safe to assume that the Crucible manages to somehow override the Catalyst's control.

If the organics in the galaxy can unite together and pool the knowledge and resources to create the Crucible, hold off the Reapers and unite it with the Citadel they break the cycle. The Crucible seems to be a test - by advancing that far organics have proven they can overcome the limitations the Catalyst assumed they had and earn the right to forge their own destiny.

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. One of those options was a faster way to control all orgaincs.

2.Reaper implants control organics, sysnthetics code can be over written by reaper code. Synthesis allows the star child to implant eveyone...Joker and EDI are being made happy...What is stopping the starchild from doing this?

1. Which option is that? I didn't see any organics being controlled in any of the endings. Repeating your nonsense doesn't make it stop being nonsense.

2. No one was implanted. Did you see Joker and EDI on an operating table? And if Synthesis was just meant to make everyone pawns of the Reapers, why does the blast affect the Reapers too? Finally, no husk or other Reaper pawn displayed the emotions Joker and EDI did. Do you have any counterexamples?

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

One problem with that assumption is that he also pulls you up to talk when the only option available is destroy.  Why would he allow you to complete what is essentially a non-solution to his problem?

Because he's not "allowing it" at all. The Crucible forces him to do so, because it changed him.

In fact, when only Destroy is available, he is visibly upset/frustrated with you, or perhaps with humanity/organics in general. But he has to bring you up there anyway, even knowing that the one option available is a pointless exercis (in his estimation, in the long run) because the Crucible makes him. Its options can therefore be trusted.

Sisterofshane wrote... 
I think it's safe to assume that the Crucible manages to somehow override the Catalyst's control.

Precisely. So all this talk about "machines with a history of deception" or whatever Dreman is saying is irrelevant. The Crucible is what matters here, and it has no capacity to deceive.

1.He's the one who offers it...He is not being forced. If it was we can just simply stop the reaper with out shepard having to die in an over the top way.
Also, you don't think the starchild is just showning you his real feeling an is up set that you are trying to kill him?
2.No, it does not. If it did. The reapers would stop fight as soon as the crucible was parled.
3. No it's  the catalyst that matters. How can you tell me how something you don't know how it works works?

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 mai 2012 - 06:41 .

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. One of those options was a faster way to control all orgaincs.

2.Reaper implants control organics, sysnthetics code can be over written by reaper code. Synthesis allows the star child to implant eveyone...Joker and EDI are being made happy...What is stopping the starchild from doing this?

1. Which option is that? I didn't see any organics being controlled in any of the endings. Repeating your nonsense doesn't make it stop being nonsense.

2. No one was implanted. Did you see Joker and EDI on an operating table? And if Synthesis was just meant to make everyone pawns of the Reapers, why does the blast affect the Reapers too? Finally, no husk or other Reaper pawn displayed the emotions Joker and EDI did. Do you have any counterexamples?

1. The oneyou combine organic and synthetic life...
2.. You don't need surgury to be implanted....The way reapers implant organic is clearly not sergical.

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

Again, you have to come up with a reason why it would or the needs it has that would to even say it would attack....Other wise your just looking for conflit were it's not....Like the reaper think organics will do and that has been shown organics have done.

Self defense, priority code compelling it to constantly reproduce until all matter is converted in to a version of itself, twisted logic causing pre-emptive self defense, rational logic causing pre-emptive self defense or it might just be on a whim. The Catalyst says sooner or later organics accidently create a synthetic life-form that has the potential to wipe them all out and I can't see any reason for him to lie, or at least any advantage in him lying.

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis feels a lot like when you kill Kolyat's hostage so Kolyat won't kill the hostage...

[MisterJB]

dreman9999 wrote...
3. No it's  the catalyst that matters. How can you tell me how something you don't know how it works works?

And why not? You are constantly doing the same.

[Sisterofshane]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

One problem with that assumption is that he also pulls you up to talk when the only option available is destroy.  Why would he allow you to complete what is essentially a non-solution to his problem?

Because he's not "allowing it" at all. The Crucible forces him to do so, because it changed him.

In fact, when only Destroy is available, he is visibly upset/frustrated with you, or perhaps with humanity/organics in general. But he has to bring you up there anyway, even knowing that the one option available is a pointless exercis (in his estimation, in the long run) because the Crucible makes him. Its options can therefore be trusted.

Sisterofshane wrote... 
I think it's safe to assume that the Crucible manages to somehow override the Catalyst's control.

Precisely. So all this talk about "machines with a history of deception" or whatever Dreman is saying is irrelevant. The Crucible is what matters here, and it has no capacity to deceive.

It is possible to tell the complete truth, however, and still manage to sway someone into your way of thinking (or away from their way of thinking).  People who create polls do this all the time.  The catalyst only outright confirms that the Destroy option WILL destroy the Reapers, that in control you will have control of the Reapers and you will die, and that Synthesis will make some sort of "new DNA" (and the jury is out on whether this is meant as literally as it could explain to shepard, or as some kind of metaphor, but the important part is that everyone/thing will be changed).  It then goes on to confirm that in all endings the Mass Relays will be destroyed.

Everything else that comes from the Catalyst's mouth is left purposefully vague.

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. The oneyou combine organic and synthetic life...
2.. You don't need surgury to be implanted....The way reapers implant organic is clearly not sergical.

1. Synthesis? I saw no one being controlled there.

2. So you agree that Synthesis is totally different than the implanting we have previously seen in the series then?