9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. But I haven't. I have used material from unpublished versions of the game. That's different than taking it from just anywhere.

No, it’s not.

It is different because the theme is still in the game, albeit hidden. See the geth and their megastructure. It may not be referenced as a
possible singularity, but what Legion describes in ME2 as the effects of
this structure is exactly that.

It’s either in the game or it isn’t. There’s no middle ground.

Fixed the thing you deliberately omitted. It is in the game. And it is not immediately obvious. Many people won't see it because Legion comes late in ME2, but it is there. 

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. But I haven't. I have used material from unpublished versions of the game. That's different than taking it from just anywhere.

No, it’s not.

It is different because the theme is still in the game, albeit hidden. See the geth and their megastructure. It may not be referenced as a
possible singularity, but what Legion describes in ME2 as the effects of
this structure is exactly that.

It’s either in the game or it isn’t. There’s no middle ground.

Fixed the thing you deliberately omitted. It is in the game. And it is not immediately obvious. Many people won't see it because Legion comes late in ME2, but it is there. 

Yes, I left it out deliberately. The geth megastructure is not singularity, but that’s completely beside the point. There’s 0 need to try to convince me that it happens exactly THIS moment and not a thousand or a million years down the line (except, of course, that it makes your case weaker).

Life would be so much simpler if you just changed “this is what Synthesis is” to “this is what I’d like Synthesis to be”.

I was even interested in exploring your alternative Synthesis, but I don’t see the point since you just can’t admit that it’s just that and keep presenting it as if it were the real thing. Sours the whole thing.

[Ieldra]

@Vigilant111:
The thing is, I am convinced my choice is the better one in every way. I've always been. Just as convinced as other people are of theirs. Otherwise I wouldn't make it. I just see no sense in belaboring the point or calling other people out for "not agreeing with the patently obvious", because, well, different perspectives and all.

But I meant what I said: to sacrifice the future of the galaxy on the altar of the principle of autonomy - in this specific circumstance Shepard finds himself in, and considering the only two other alternatives you have - that I find highly questionable. If you stand at the fulcrum of events and have this one-time opportunity to shape the future of the galaxy that will never come again - and then refuse to make a decision you believe in because you can't ask everyone for agreement? I find that attitude incomprehensible.

Also, Shepard has earned the right to decide. Otherwise it wouldn't be Shepard who stands at the fulcrum of events. I don't know how you roleplayed your Shepard, but my Shepard was often frustrated. At times, he wished for nothing more than another would take up the mantle. But no one would. No one could. And now that Shepard's about to lose everything for saving the galaxy, including the love of his life he had just found, the galaxy will accept what he's going to decide for it. Even in his last moments, he will do his best and not take his frustration out on the future. He's earned to right to decide.

@lillitheris:
How many times must I say that my scenario is one of many possible ones before you recognize that I'm not trying to desribe "the" Synthesis. Gods, I should make a permanent shortcut for typing this sentence. BTW, perhaps it might behoove you to admit that there isn't one scenario. If you think that my version is too far from the game, then MAKE A BETTER ONE!
I'm totally open to arguments like "This and that in your scenario doesn't fit. You say it can't be made to fit because of logic problems, but here is my version where it does fit". I would *love* that kind of debate. I've had a PM exchange earlier this day where we explored the possibility of a literal hybridization on the molecular level. I still think it can't be done, but if someone presents a scenario, I'll be interested. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Sarah Knight wrote...

okay i saw some one put that their was no proof of Synthetics being "hostile" or attacking other organics" that Statement their is Completely Wrong if you have Javik As your Squadmate in ME3 SP he tells you that his own Kind had issues With Synthetics the Quarians Did so to with the Geth because they didn't understand the answer the geth asked.

When the Geth asked about its Creation or if its alive the Quarians Freaked the hell out in turn Started the Morning War as the geth and Quarians both know it for nearly 300 Years Since it ended with shepards help in bringing the piece cause of Legion and Tali Getting along with one another on top of Rewriting and allowing Legion to use non "classified data" to his own kind

Javik's Kind had a war with their Synthetics the war i believe was called the Metacon War and also theirs the Reapers They are Synthetic and organic and are Hostile to every "dominant" or Advanced Race in turn as the the catalyst states

"we harvest the advanced species and ascend them into reaper form thus Leaving the younger ones alone"

So My advice before making that Statement Learn the facts about Mass effect universe before assuming that Synthetics are not hostile towards any species or will Turn towards attacking others. if the Geth or other Machines AI or VI that is Self Aware like EDI they Will eventually Turn on you regardless of your actons.

as well as in ME2 Legion stated that the geth were building their future and if the organics interfered they would be killed well he didn't litterally state that but he said it differently.

so read up on ME Lore Play every Game of ME Then have an arguement about Synthetics or if the theory/ending or W/e people argue about these days makes sense or not i have a good understanding the only one that to me doesn't make sense is the Catalyst which i am patiently waiting for the EC Despite the Negativity that i saw on it already from Noobs that like to flame BW

For sofar as I know this is known about synthetics in the game (note that I used something from an earlier post):

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The geth were not involved in Eden Prime. The heretics were. The heretics were a small number of geth turned hostile by the reapers.

The geth defended themselves against the quarians who were trying to exterminate them. That seems very reasonable as a defense against genocide. It is interesting to note that at the end of the Morning War the geth let the quarians go. There was no consensus about whether it was a good idea to exterminate their creators or not.

The quarians thought it was a great plan to retake their homeworld and thus the quarians attacked the geth. Obviously the geth defended themselves against yet another quarian attack. Sounds reasonable when those who were planning to wipe you out attack again.

I am sure you must have encountered Legion in ME3. He wasn't exactly playing cards, was he? Any idea what was going on? Correct. The reapers were using him to control the geth.

Javik can tell you that the reapers made sure that the synthetics turned against the organics.

But back to our cycle. Those "various other examples of synthetics and organics coming into violent conflict" are a bit vague. But I remember a couple.

A very funny one is the AI on the Citadel in ME1. It was created by a thief to help him steal from quasar machines. Not a very good start to meet your first organic and have confidence in it, right? Of course you know about the trick with the second AI in that story. Amusing, wasn't it?

Remember the VI that went berserk on the Moon? That was an Alliance experiment trying to create an AI. When the experiment went wrong it was attacked. While under attack the AI became conscious. Hostile organics were the first thing it became aware of. And of course we know where that AI ended up. Not very hostile, is it? The AI saved Shepard's ass and the crew on multiple occasions.

We see a lot of violent geth in the ME-series, but all those are either heretics or under reaper control.

The other geth were trying to find out about Shepard, because he was the only one who was opposing the Old Machines. We never see those non-violent geth until Shepard meets Legion in ME2. Legion was able to kill Shepard and get rid of one of the most dangerous organics known. Interestingly enough, Legion didn't do that and saved Shepard instead. Doesn't sound very hostile to me.

You can have interesting conversations with Tali and Legion about the geth. Both give the same story about the origin of the Morning War. Remember the "Does this unit have a soul?" question? It was mentioned by both Tali (in ME1) and Legion (in ME2). Tali even answered the question in ME3.

To paragon Shepard and Legion the right of self-determination was important. Shepard went as far as allowing Legion to upload the reaper code on Rannoch. If Shepard refused then Legion mentioned that Shepard "will not decide the fate of its people" and becomes hostile. I think Legion had every right to do that, because not allowing it would violate the right of self-determination. If that scene ends in peace with quarians then Legion's last words are "Keelah se'lai". I hope you see the significance of that.

BTW: Take Javik with you on the "Priority: Geth Dreadnought" mission. He'll explain that the zha'til were turned hostile by the reapers.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 juin 2012 - 01:56 .

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Vigilant111:
The thing is, I am convinced my choice is the better one in every way. I've always been. Just as convinced as other people are of theirs. Otherwise I wouldn't make it. I just see no sense in belaboring the point or calling other people out for "not agreeing with the patently obvious", because, well, different perspectives and all.

But I meant what I said: to sacrifice the future of the galaxy on the altar of the principle of autonomy - in this specific circumstance Shepard finds himself in, and considering the only two other alternatives you have - that I find highly questionable. If you stand at the fulcrum of events and have this one-time opportunity to shape the future of the galaxy that will never come again - and then refuse to make a decision you believe in because you can't ask everyone for agreement? I find that attitude incomprehensible.

Also, Shepard has earned the right to decide. Otherwise it wouldn't be Shepard who stands at the fulcrum of events. I don't know how you roleplayed your Shepard, but my Shepard was often frustrated. At times, he wished for nothing more than another would take up the mantle. But no one would. No one could. And now that Shepard's about to lose everything for saving the galaxy, including the love of his life he had just found, the galaxy will accept what he's going to decide for it. Because even in his last moments, he will do his best and not take his frustration out on the future. He's earned to right to decide.

I will let this go, just for the sake of ending this fruitless discussion, while I cannot convince you that synthesis is bad, and u cannot convince me that synthesis is good

Yes, there are questions regarding every option, but most resides in synthesis, that is why u felt the need to imagine your scenario, to fill in the plotholes,  to make it right, but unfortunately it is not canon

In destroy I am giving the galaxy a chance to decide for itself what it wants to do in the future rather than deciding what is best for them right now, I upheld their freewill, at the cost of the Geth and EDI, and I sincerely hope that organics wil learn from their mistakes...to let organics choose their own path, that is the greatest gift anyone could give them, if they do think synthesis is good, they can build another Crucible later

Yes, Shepard has earned the right to decide, and he has decided that a world free of reapers is the world for the future

Modifié par Vigilant111, 17 juin 2012 - 02:04 .

[Sarah Knight]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sarah Knight wrote...

okay i saw some one put that their was no proof of Synthetics being "hostile" or attacking other organics" that Statement their is Completely Wrong if you have Javik As your Squadmate in ME3 SP he tells you that his own Kind had issues With Synthetics the Quarians Did so to with the Geth because they didn't understand the answer the geth asked.

When the Geth asked about its Creation or if its alive the Quarians Freaked the hell out in turn Started the Morning War as the geth and Quarians both know it for nearly 300 Years Since it ended with shepards help in bringing the piece cause of Legion and Tali Getting along with one another on top of Rewriting and allowing Legion to use non "classified data" to his own kind

Javik's Kind had a war with their Synthetics the war i believe was called the Metacon War and also theirs the Reapers They are Synthetic and organic and are Hostile to every "dominant" or Advanced Race in turn as the the catalyst states

"we harvest the advanced species and ascend them into reaper form thus Leaving the younger ones alone"

So My advice before making that Statement Learn the facts about Mass effect universe before assuming that Synthetics are not hostile towards any species or will Turn towards attacking others. if the Geth or other Machines AI or VI that is Self Aware like EDI they Will eventually Turn on you regardless of your actons.

as well as in ME2 Legion stated that the geth were building their future and if the organics interfered they would be killed well he didn't litterally state that but he said it differently.

so read up on ME Lore Play every Game of ME Then have an arguement about Synthetics or if the theory/ending or W/e people argue about these days makes sense or not i have a good understanding the only one that to me doesn't make sense is the Catalyst which i am patiently waiting for the EC Despite the Negativity that i saw on it already from Noobs that like to flame BW

For sofar as I know this is known about synthetics in the game (note that I used something from an earlier post):

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The geth were not involved in Eden Prime. The heretics were. The heretics were a small number of geth turned hostile by the reapers.

The geth defended themselves against the quarians who were trying to exterminate them. That seems very reasonable as a defense against genocide. It is interesting to note that at the end of the Morning War the geth let the quarians go. There was no consensus about whether it was a good idea to exterminate their creators or not.

The quarians thought it was a great plan to retake their homeworld and thus the quarians attacked the geth. Obviously the geth defended themselves against yet another quarian attack. Sounds reasonable when those who were planning to wipe you out attack again.

I am sure you must have encountered Legion in ME3. He wasn't exactly playing cards, was he? Any idea what was going on? Correct. The reapers were using him to control the geth.

Javik can tell you that the reapers made sure that the synthetics turned against the organics.

But back to our cycle. Those "various other examples of synthetics and organics coming into violent conflict" are a bit vague. But I remember a couple.

A very funny one is the AI on the Citadel in ME1. It was created by a thief to help him steal from quasar machines. Not a very good start to meet your first organic and have confidence in it, right? Of course you know about the trick with the second AI in that story. Amusing, wasn't it?

Remember the VI that went berserk on the Moon? That was an Alliance experiment trying to create an AI. When the experiment went wrong it was attacked. While under attack the AI became conscious. Hostile organics were the first thing it became aware of. And of course we know where that AI ended up. Not very hostile, is it? The AI saved Shepard's ass and the crew on multiple occasions.

We see a lot of violent geth in the ME-series, but all those are either heretics or under reaper control.

The other geth were trying to find out about Shepard, because he was the only one who was opposing the Old Machines. We never see those non-violent geth until Shepard meets Legion in ME2. Legion was able to kill Shepard and get rid of one of the most dangerous organics known. Interestingly enough, Legion didn't do that and saved Shepard instead. Doesn't sound very hostile to me.

You can have interesting conversations with Tali and Legion about the geth. Both give the same story about the origin of the Morning War. Remember the "Does this unit have a soul?" question? It was mentioned by both Tali (in ME1) and Legion (in ME2). Tali even answered the question in ME3.

To paragon Shepard and Legion the right of self-determination was important. Shepard went as far as allowing Legion to upload the reaper code on Rannoch. If Shepard refused then Legion mentioned that Shepard "will not decide the fate of its people" and becomes hostile. I think Legion had every right to do that, because not allowing it would violate the right of self-determination. If that scene ends in peace with quarians then Legion's last words are "Keelah se'lai". I hope you see the significance of that.

BTW: Take Javik with you on the "Priority: Geth Dreadnought" mission. He'll explain that the zha'til were turned hostile by the reapers.

ah   okay didn't  read every page of the forum thread to lazy to do so and yea its True Regardless and yea   i did take him on Geth dreadnaught it was illumanating  to be honest  to learn that from Javik which was Similar to the Geth  in our time with Legion "if  he lives from your suicide mission ofc"  Same Said about Tali when you  first get the admirals. glad my old xb died because i lost Tali on that  Suicide Mission LOL... was learning the ropes till i figured what i did was wrong and got my crew to live finally  haha...

[His Name was HYR!!]

'sup, GREENZ!

:happy:

[Ieldra]

Vigilant111 wrote...
Yes, there are questions regarding every option, but most resides in synthesis, that is why u felt the need to imagine your scenario, to fill in the plotholes,  to make it right, but unfortunately it is not canon

We'll see if the EC has any clarification to offer. But consider jtav's scenario, Heeden's, Siduri's or mine. I'd take any of them as canon without need to change my opinion. If Bioware doesn't give us a canon, any scenario that fits certain parameters is equally valid. I can't look into the writers' minds for their intention, but I think the presentation highly suggests a very good outcome that comes at the expense of violating the principle of autonomy. I can live with that.

In destroy I am giving the galaxy a chance to decide for itself what it wants to do in the future rather than deciding what is best for them right now, I upheld their freewill, at the cost of the Geth and EDI, and I sincerely hope that organics wil learn from their mistakes...to let organics choose their own path, that is the greatest gift anyone could give them, if they do think synthesis is good, they can build another Crucible later

For your decision to be valid long-term, it requires that the Catalyst is wrong. Otherwise you've just signed organics' death warrant. Add the price you're paying......Just saying the picture isn't as one-sided as you'd like to think.

Different perspectives. Different value hierarchies. Different decisions.

And too little exposition

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2012 - 03:42 .

[mass perfection]

It's just that you're forcing it on everyone.

[Vigilant111]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...
Yes, there are questions regarding every option, but most resides in synthesis, that is why u felt the need to imagine your scenario, to fill in the plotholes,  to make it right, but unfortunately it is not canon

We'll see if the EC has any clarification to offer. But consider jtav's scenario, Heeden's, Siduri's or mine. I'd take any of them as canon without need to change my opinion. If Bioware doesn't give us a canon, any scenario that fits certain parameters is equally valid. I can't look into the writers' minds for their intention, but I think the presentation highly suggests a very good outcome that comes at the expense of violating the principle of autonomy. I can live with that.

In destroy I am giving the galaxy a chance to decide for itself what it wants to do in the future rather than deciding what is best for them right now, I upheld their freewill, at the cost of the Geth and EDI, and I sincerely hope that organics wil learn from their mistakes...to let organics choose their own path, that is the greatest gift anyone could give them, if they do think synthesis is good, they can build another Crucible later

For your decision to be valid long-term, it requires that the Catalyst is wrong. Otherwise you've just signed organics' death warrant. Add the price you're paying......Just saying the picture isn't as one-sided as you'd like to think.

Different perspectives. Different value hierarchies. Different decisions.

And too little exposition

Hahaha, if the Catalyst said those bolded words to me I would DEFINATELY choose synthesis...okay, lets get serious now, have a little faith Ieldra2, u don't need to tell me how evil organics are, yes, I watch TV

No matter how much you are trying to paint synthesis as idealistic, like that flimsy Adam and Eve scene, you are just buying insurance against future revolt, you are afraid, admit it, YOU, are the realistic one, the pessimistic one, who is all concerned about the welfare of the organics no less than I do, but u are doing it wrong, we don't need synthesis, organic/synthetic conflicts are a non-issue, organics themselves could finish themselves off if they do not stop being greedy, no need for synthetics to kill them, if the synthetics really wanted to wipe out the organics, they would have done so already

As long as the reapers are gone, I am happy

[Vigilant111]

In other words, Ieldra2, the only thing u can control is the immediate threat of the reapers, and not synthetics, u cannot stop people from killing themselves, if people do develop AIs later, they should understand the risks, if they don't, too bad

If people decide to end themselves, synthesis will have no way of stopping it

Modifié par Vigilant111, 17 juin 2012 - 04:15 .

[Nimrodell]

Vigilant111 wrote...

In other words, Ieldra2, the only thing u can control is the immediate threat of the reapers, and not synthetics, u cannot stop people from killing themselves, if people do develop AIs later, they should understand the risks, if they don't, too bad

If people decide to end themselves, synthesis will have no way of stopping it

Ah but with synthesis, organic beings possibly gain the perspective also on how it is to be synthetic sapient and vice versa - ever seen the Star Trek: Voyager episode 'Author, Author' (7th season)? Or for that matter two episodes titled 'Flesh and Blood'? In both the ethical problem is visible on how organic beings usually perceive something that is synthetic sapient and in both episodes resolution comes after both sides actually experience point of view and perspective of the other one. That question wasn't posed in Mass Effect for the first time - people like Stanislaw Lem or Philip K. Dick were exploring those very subjects and as I said, even in popular scifi series like spin off Voyager, you'll encounter that problem and solution after resolution that requires experiencing both sides of the coin called life. The things that Catalyst say go along those lines - so, it won't prevent future conflicts and yet it is one kind of preventing measure. At least, that's how I understood it and since Mass Effect writers did use archetypes and stereotypes from other stories, even motivation, well perhaps that was their intention with synthesis indeed - it's not enough just for EDI or the geth to understand the value of life, it's also important for organic beings too to understand that it's not just perfect mimicking, feigning of created programs - that actually synthetic sapients are alive indeed. After all, you can see that many pro-Destroy people are too ready to rationalize possible genocide over the geth, because the geth are for the most part still perceived as machines and machine is still not valuable as life which we define through being organic.

Edit: typo.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 17 juin 2012 - 04:34 .

[Vigilant111]

Nimrodell wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

In other words, Ieldra2, the only thing u can control is the immediate threat of the reapers, and not synthetics, u cannot stop people from killing themselves, if people do develop AIs later, they should understand the risks, if they don't, too bad

If people decide to end themselves, synthesis will have no way of stopping it

Ah but with synthesis, organic beings possibly gain the perspective also on how it is to be synthetic sapient and vice versa - ever seen the Star Trek: Voyager episode 'Author, Author' (7th season)? Or for that matter two episodes titled 'Flesh and Blood'? In both the ethical problem is visible on how organic beings usually perceive something that is synthetic sapient and in both episodes resolution comes after both sides actually experience point of view and perspective of the other one. That question wasn't posed in Mass Effect for the first time - people like Stanislaw Lem or Philip K. Dick were exploring those very subjects and as I said, even in popular scifi series like spin off Voyager, you'll encounter that problem and solution after resolution that requires experiencing both sides of the coin called life. The things that Catalyst say go along those lines - so, it won't prevent future conflicts and yet it is one kind of preventing measure. At least, that's how I understood it and since Mass Effect writers did use archetypes and stereotypes from other stories, even motivation, well perhaps that was their intention with synthesis indeed - it's not enough just for EDI or the geth to understand the value of life, it's also important for organic beings too to understand that it's not just perfect mimicking, feigning of created programs - that actually synthetic sapients are alive indeed. After all, you can see that many pro-Destroy people are too ready to rationalize possible genocide over the geth, because the geth are for the most part still perceived as machines and machine is still not valuable as life which we define through being organic.

Edit: typo.

Sorry I haven't seen those episodes, but I would say this, the Geth carries the seeds of the Quarians, they are the living proof of the Quarians' existence, yes quite possibly organics will cease to exist when they no longer can adapt to changes, but not because synthetics wiped them out

Those are their rationales, not mine, AIs can always be created again, u are saying that we are kinda racist against the Geth, no, it is a collateral damage, it is NOT our intention to kill them, and I never feel good about killing them even until today, it is the imperfection of the Crucible, yes it is cheap, but I place my blame on it in order to make myself feel better

I get what u are saying about the synthetics stepping into organics' shoes and all that, but that is unnecessary, having empathy maybe viewed by us as strength, but to the Geth may be hinderance, it is all subjective, they are fine the way they are, they are not stupid or anthing, we all have own strengths and weaknesses, we are perfect

"I think we'd rather keep our own form" - Shepard

[Ieldra]

*sigh*

I wish people would just stop telling me what I think. This is immensely annoying. And insulting. I choose Synthesis because I believe that it is best for the galaxy. I would believe that anyway even if the threat posited by the Catalyst was not present, but I can only justify making the decision at this point - as opposed to letting the galaxy get there on its own terms - because the threat exists and I want to avoid destroying the Reapers for reasons covered elsewhere.

I have another Shepard who has serious doubts about the threat. She chooses Control, gaining at least 50K years to find a different solution and keeping the option open to either set the Reapers free or fly them into a black hole.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2012 - 05:38 .

[Taboo]

The threat is the issue. The caldera under Yellowstone in the United States is going to blow up at some point Ieldra, and it's going to kill millions of people. It will blanket the Earth in ash and blot out the sun.

But it isn't likely in our lifetime, and given the Star Gazer scene, the thought of a singularity happening in that amount of time is unlikely. I don't think it's your job to solve an issue of that magnitude. Let others do so, in their time.

[blue water]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The threat is the issue. The caldera under Yellowstone in the United States is going to blow up at some point Ieldra, and it's going to kill millions of people. It will blanket the Earth in ash and blot out the sun.

But it isn't likely in our lifetime, and given the Star Gazer scene, the thought of a singularity happening in that amount of time is unlikely. I don't think it's your job to solve an issue of that magnitude. Let others do so, in their time.

Once more unto the breach, eh.

[Taboo]

 Ieldra knows I love driving him crazy. He also knows I see this as an art debate and nothing more. He still hasn't told me if that artist I told him about was in any way interesting but that's okay. My mood has stabilized, so things should only be slighty more chaotic when I get involved.

I actually think he is more suited for Control myself, given what I've seen him talk about, but that's just my opinion, there's no reason to go spreading it around.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
But it isn't likely in our lifetime, and given the Star Gazer scene, the thought of a singularity happening in that amount of time is unlikely. I don't think it's your job to solve an issue of that magnitude. Let others do so, in their time.

I'm presented with the problem, I'm presented with a possible solution, I need to seriously consider it. From the player's perspective, I choose to believe in it or not. From Shepard's perspective, I pretend that enough data has been given to convince - or not. That's all we can do because if you want, you can dissect any scenario in any single story ever written or told, because no story gives you complete information. That Bioware's bad writing has made it so easy to dissect doesn't change that. If you Destroy the Reapers, you do not know if you've doomed organics to extinction. If I choose Synthesis, I'll never know if it was necessary.

To be totally clear: I believe that this attempt to dissect is an excuse. People don't choose X because they believe the Catalyst or not, they choose to believe the Catalyst or not in order to justify the decision they want to take. Because they think it's the best for the galaxy, because it fits the story they want to tell with their Shepards, or for any other reason. Both jtav and I have a Shepard who will choose Control if the EC uses something akin to Siduri's scenario, for the single reason that this fits the story we want to tell about that Shepard and Miranda.

Also, I think that many people don't understand that with this ending, we have become the writers of the future of our respective universes. I may be wrong but I think that was always the intention. Only Bioware made the exposition not just vague - which is required for this setup - but nonsensical. Thus it failed.
   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 juin 2012 - 06:06 .

[Taboo]

 I'd still choose Destroy even if I survived in the others.

As I've stated before, you dissolve into whatever in the Synthesis. You assume authority, but none of the responsibility for the action. Shepard will not be able to take responsibility for his actions.

Being alive =/= A good life

People will have no idea what happens. Someone is going to be upset, and not taking responsibility for one ruined life is too much for me, and my Shepard.

People are going to be pissed in Destroyed too, I'd never deny that, but Shepard will be alive to say, "Yes, I chose this instead of X and Y." Assuming responsibility for an action of this magnitude is very important to me, and I won't commit to something unless I know I can be sure of something, at least of this maginitude.

I do not see Synthesis as a sacrifice, I see it as a gamble, and nothing more. You gamble for what you think is best, die in the result. It isn't suicide, but it isn't sacrifice either.

I do not see using people as a means to an end is ethical because it isn't about what I want, it's about what they want. People wanted stopped Reapers, not synthesized DNA, or controlled Reapers.

The world may be ****, but at least I'll be able to assume responsibility for my actions.

The only positive thing my Shepard gets out of this is Miranda. Believe it or not, having a relationship doesn't solve the galaxy's problems. It doesn't solve PTSD. It doesn't solve the destroyed relays. It doesn't solve the issues with each race. Being alive is sometimes more painful than dying, and I see being alive as the sacrifice.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 17 juin 2012 - 06:16 .

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
That artist you mentioned - I don't think the style fits the image I've posted in the OP, really.

As for the ending of ME3, well, of course I would prefer to be alive to see what I've wrought, but it isn't a deciding factor for my decision.

[Taboo]

I've seen it before. It's in the same genre as Gray. I'll see if I can find it for you.

I believe such an action is very irresponsible to enact if I can't possibly know what the effects are going to be. I don't like the idea of taking that risk and hurting people for all time because of it. I won't use my personal feelings about improvement to use people as a means to an end. It isn't my right.

It makes me very sad that things had to turn out this way, as I find the presentation just gets worse and worse the more I think about it.

[Nimrodell]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

In other words, Ieldra2, the only thing u can control is the immediate threat of the reapers, and not synthetics, u cannot stop people from killing themselves, if people do develop AIs later, they should understand the risks, if they don't, too bad

If people decide to end themselves, synthesis will have no way of stopping it

Ah but with synthesis, organic beings possibly gain the perspective also on how it is to be synthetic sapient and vice versa - ever seen the Star Trek: Voyager episode 'Author, Author' (7th season)? Or for that matter two episodes titled 'Flesh and Blood'? In both the ethical problem is visible on how organic beings usually perceive something that is synthetic sapient and in both episodes resolution comes after both sides actually experience point of view and perspective of the other one. That question wasn't posed in Mass Effect for the first time - people like Stanislaw Lem or Philip K. Dick were exploring those very subjects and as I said, even in popular scifi series like spin off Voyager, you'll encounter that problem and solution after resolution that requires experiencing both sides of the coin called life. The things that Catalyst say go along those lines - so, it won't prevent future conflicts and yet it is one kind of preventing measure. At least, that's how I understood it and since Mass Effect writers did use archetypes and stereotypes from other stories, even motivation, well perhaps that was their intention with synthesis indeed - it's not enough just for EDI or the geth to understand the value of life, it's also important for organic beings too to understand that it's not just perfect mimicking, feigning of created programs - that actually synthetic sapients are alive indeed. After all, you can see that many pro-Destroy people are too ready to rationalize possible genocide over the geth, because the geth are for the most part still perceived as machines and machine is still not valuable as life which we define through being organic.

Edit: typo.

Sorry I haven't seen those episodes, but I would say this, the Geth carries the seeds of the Quarians, they are the living proof of the Quarians' existence, yes quite possibly organics will cease to exist when they no longer can adapt to changes, but not because synthetics wiped them out

Those are their rationales, not mine, AIs can always be created again, u are saying that we are kinda racist against the Geth, no, it is a collateral damage, it is NOT our intention to kill them, and I never feel good about killing them even until today, it is the imperfection of the Crucible, yes it is cheap, but I place my blame on it in order to make myself feel better

I get what u are saying about the synthetics stepping into organics' shoes and all that, but that is unnecessary, having empathy maybe viewed by us as strength, but to the Geth may be hinderance, it is all subjective, they are fine the way they are, they are not stupid or anthing, we all have own strengths and weaknesses, we are perfect

"I think we'd rather keep our own form" - Shepard

I respect your opinion, the only thing I'm reacting to is term 'collateral damage' - always be careful when you describe innocent victims like 'collateral damage'. That term is horrible creation from modern wars and governments of modern societies where the illusion of morality and justified goals has to be upheld in front of their own citizens that very often don't know anything about countries and nations to whom they are bringing 'democracy' or 'helping hand' (after all, they say this term was born during Vietnam War).

Always keep in mind, would I call myself and my dearest ones a collateral damage if I was actually on the receiving end? Trust me on this, you wouldn't. There is no such thing as collateral damage for truly aware men - only crime that can be committed out of pure madness or evil or spite or etc., but also there is a crime that is legalized and hidden behind the curtain of political and military power. After all, history for the most part is written by winners, not losers - and we might evolve this phrase by adding - history is written by media supporting stronger party and better players and that's how the abhorrent twisting of truth and justice was born in sintagm 'collateral damage' and even definitions of it very often possess one extremely important description 'it's euphemism.

[Sarah Knight]

@Taboo Synthesizing is different from Controlling the reapers and Geth what this option does is give both organics and inorganics "geth reapers etc" the True understanding of Life and see what the illusive man Saw when he undergone the augmentations to try and control the reapers.

Sure it don't Kill the Reaper but it Still Keeps EDI and the geth and the Reapers around on Thessia if you brought Javik ith you the prothean VI Tells you that the Reapers are not the true Masters their Servants to their masters Like the people they harvest or indoctrinate/implant.

in Truth my understanding is that if you keep them alive the Reapers the Geth EDI and every other Synthetic Will know the Meaning of Life Just Like Legion did and EDI when you helped her with her relationship with Joker and the organics Asari Humans Turians Quarians batarians Drell Vorcha krogan Salarain Elcor volus Hanar they all will understand the Meaning of Geth and other Full Synthetic Machines.

Legions quote "Does this one have a Soul?"
hacket "Some thought Dropping the First Atomic bomb would ignite the earths Atmosphere but they did it any way"

in hind sight Sure your character Dies but in the end you can make The Council Races Stronger more advanced and also BW has announced Several times This is the END for shepard Meaning if their is ME4 he/she will not be a playable character in the sequel.

Modifié par Sarah Knight, 18 juin 2012 - 02:24 .

[Taboo]

There is no true meaning to life. It's not something you can comprehend. That's why humans don't make sense to machines. That's a fundamental difference between us. But we can learn to live together without being Synthesized.

It isn't just about EDI and the Geth. It's about the Krogans, Turians, Yahg, Salarians and humans as well. I see no difference between them on an equality level. They have differences but they can learn to adapt and live together.

I do not believe that using my beliefs to determine the fate of everyone is right when I use it as a means to an end. That is to say I will not perform Synthesis based upon my personal views of improvement. People have the right to say no, and in the case of Synthesis, it's permenant and affects all things for ALL time.

Destroy provides a similar conclusion, but on a different wavelength. People will be able to start again, free from political bull****, from the Reapers. I believe that true understanding will come from a desire to survive in this "rise from the ashes" scenario. It will be a new world, and I think that people are going to learn from past mistakes.

I'll also be able to take responsibility for my actions in Destroy. Everyone else throws that out the window when they decide to enact a permanent solution on the Galaxy.

[Sarah Knight]

Taboo-XX wrote...

There is no true meaning to life. It's not something you can comprehend. That's why humans don't make sense to machines. That's a fundamental difference between us. But we can learn to live together without being Synthesized.

It isn't just about EDI and the Geth. It's about the Krogans, Turians, Yahg, Salarians and humans as well. I see no difference between them on an equality level. They have differences but they can learn to adapt and live together.

I do not believe that using my beliefs to determine the fate of everyone is right when I use it as a means to an end. That is to say I will not perform Synthesis based upon my personal views of improvement. People have the right to say no, and in the case of Synthesis, it's permenant and affects all things for ALL time.

Destroy provides a similar conclusion, but on a different wavelength. People will be able to start again, free from political bull****, from the Reapers. I believe that true understanding will come from a desire to survive in this "rise from the ashes" scenario. It will be a new world, and I think that people are going to learn from past mistakes.

I'll also be able to take responsibility for my actions in Destroy. Everyone else throws that out the window when they decide to enact a permanent solution on the Galaxy.

i honestly Feel Sorry for you that you think their is no "true meaning" of Life  because those with a clear mind can see it  its been proven by Scientists   and every one else

in hindsightt you and every one else that chose the destroy synthetics  more than likely Killed the Quarians as well because of the fact that it will Take them  50,000 years to  be able to Live without their  environmental suits  that or you ended up killing them in the end  because they are partly Synthetic Like  Shepard because of their   implants and immune system is very weak to   infection.

but   if you wer  Willing to Take EDI  away from Joker  then fine but to me  their is Meaning to Life and a Meaning to the Synthesizing    choice  i'm not Forcing it on you  or any one else but as the Catalyst   Told us about this choice

"it  Will take  everything you are Casting it out Creating a new DNA  a new framework "

does not mean it controls the Reapers or any one else for that matter  let alone "following"  what every one wanted you have the choice before you   2 of the 3  will make  the council and its Allies Stronger  1 of them  i am more than likely    understanding  will doom you  "destruction of synthetics"  which is the main choice i don't want to do  because i love the geth i don't care  if shepard  Dies  just to Create a New DNA /framework   that allows the reapers and  Geth To live amongst us  .

Like all human beings  we fight  its in our nature   we fight over everything  argue  over something big or small or over petty things  but in the end We Also Forgive  each other for mistakes made  me i rather  forgive the reapers for it and going to the synthesize way. or even better "controlling them"  they Aren't people   which  really bugs me that people think that Synthetics are "human" or "people" like us .