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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#1976
Heeden

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Taboo-XX wrote...

This is not a libertarian wet dream Heeden. Unless you remove things, peace will never be possible. Nor is this anarcho-communism.


It is (or can be, or might lead up to) anarcho-communism.

Plants are affected in the cut scenes. It's not far to think that Bubbles the Chimp now has nanites flowing through him.


Assuming nanites are the medium, and not something unobtrusive. And even if they are, so what? Bubbles the Chimp has nanites in him, he also has no idea what nanites are or how you get them to do stuff.

You can't ignore Synthesis anymore than you can ignore you have skin. Your dermis is affected. Your retinas are affected. You can't ignore it.


So the nightmare of Synthesis is everyone has a perma-glow and can't sleep at night? I would only assume that if biotic users were permanently sheathed in lightning.

#1977
lillitheris

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Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Please do not strawman.

The issue is forcing it on people. If people wish to be a part of a society, they can choose to remain. If not, they may leave. But you have zero right to force it upon them. Society should work to that goal in it's own time, with the participation of the people.

Synthesis people have a tendency to forget that ALL life is being Synthesized. Chimps. Goats. Bears. Yahg.


But with no hints as to what Synthesis achieves, so what? It may well be that Synthesis has no bearing whatsoever on Chimps, Goats Bears and Yahgs. Like dropping the ability to read in to the minds of those animals, they may never see a written word, and if they did they would only know the sound it makes without a concept of the meaning (except Chimps maybe, but I for one welcome our Chimp cousins).


Actually, Taboo-XX, Ieldra is saying that it probably doesn’t affect any non-sapient animals. No idea HOW that comes to be, of course, but it probably doesn’t happen because that’d be really complicated and stuff.



Heeden, I’m going to ask you the same question I did Ieldra2:

If you were there next to Shepard, instead of choosing one of the two options with known immediate outcomes, you would advise he or she select Synthesis, whose effects you do not know and can only guess at, which you cannot explain at all let alone in any detail, or offer any kind of assurance that it actually does anything to prevent this synthetic-organic conflict it is supposedly solving? This is based on your statements here in this thread.

And you believe that Shepard would take that advice?

#1978
lillitheris

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Heeden wrote...

Bubbles the Chimp has nanites in him, he also has no idea what nanites are or how you get them to do stuff.


This is so apropos.

#1979
Taboo

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I have friends in Greece who are anarcho-communists. It works very well in small groups but as soon as you get a fair amount of people it becomes an issue.

You have no right to enact a change on Bubbles the Chimp. Bubbles is not as evolved as we are. Knowing what I know about Chimps and personal space, they are going to be VERY pissed.

You and I both know what Noam Chompsky would say about forcing people into something with Synthesis.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 10:40 .


#1980
Vigilant111

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Heeden wrote...

There is an element of the high EMS needed for Synthesis makes it automatically a good thing, but similarly Destroy is (symbolically in the ending) only a good thing with high EMS. Without a decent level of Galactic Readiness, it is very possible (I would say the intended outcome) that Destroy would lead to a galactic dark-age (possibly one just recovered from in the Stargazer scene).

However with a well prepared galaxy, a more finely constructed Crucible that doesn't blow up London, there's a better chance of the galaxy pulling through to become a stronger, more unified society. Both Synthesis and high-level Destroy have very compelling reasons for and against them, which is what makes them interesting. Pro-synthites are head-canoning because we like the potential implications of closer relationships between synthetics and organics and that's the route Bioware have given us to expand the galaxy that way.

There's no reason to put a doom-and-gloom, ecological terrorism, hive-mind, indoctrinated negative spin on Synthesis for the same reason there's no reason to put an everyone-starves-and-dies spin on high-level Destroy. We have an I-lose situation when we have crappy EMS, there's no reason to invent more for when we put in the work to actually win.


I appreciate the fact that you are trying to comfort me about my choice and for reminding me how people could cut corners in terms of effort using MP

The ending is TOTALLY unsatisfying, even with that breath scene which I only saw on youtube. There is definately a discrepancy in terms of imagination between destroy and synthesis, I just don't see anything more than the red coloured explosion, no, destroy is not safe no matter how high your EMS is, destroy is definately disadvantaged, and I am afraid headcanoning is not gonna help

I don't understand what is the link between war asset points and how finely constructed the Crucible is, I am guessing there is an inverse relationship between firepower and the amount of EMS.

#1981
Heeden

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lillitheris wrote...

Heeden wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Please to explain circuits on foliage in cinematic. Also, I’m curious to hear how you explain how the synthesis differentiates between those cells that are to be hybridized from those that aren’t.


I can think of 4 possible explanations

1. Bionic parts and "macro-chips" (like micro-chips but much, much bigger) magicked out of thin air and integrated with all living organisms, glowing brightly enough to be visible through skin, but only at certain angles.

2. Bioluminescence that follows the patterns of circuitry, greatly magnified.

3. A reflection or projection from something happening off-screen.

4. Artistic rendering of space-magic, like biotic lightning.


And the winner of the Occam award, given that the Catalyst says that everything is transformed? They’re hybrids.

Although some of those ideas are pretty funny, good work.

And please explain how the ‘opting out’ happens.

And please also explain how, exactly, the opt-outs actually DO survive?


Like somebody given biotic abilities against their will, you either choose to utilise them or you don't.


No, that person is still a biotic. They have not opted out. They have still changed. If there is, say, a poison that works on biotics, they’re affected.

Unless you’re saying that ‘opting out’ is just starving or jumping off a cliff? Because I’m fairly certain that’s not what Ieldra2 is talking about.

Here’s the thing, once again. I don’t care what you headcanon says about Synthesis. Whatever works for you is fine. What is not fine is comparing your headcanon Synthesis to non-headcanoned Destroy and Control.

The end results of Destroy and Control are also head-canoned. Any of them could end in a golden age or a dark age - it's your Shepard, your galaxy and your story.


Incorrect.

Results, reprecussions? Ultimately yes. Mechanics? No. Destroy, as stated by the game, will destroy the Reapers, and some assortment of synthetics. Control places Shepard or some Shepard-like program in charge of the Reapers. Both are very clear-cut.


Destroy sprinkles Eezo throughout the galaxy from Reaper power cores, everyone dies from exposure.

Control gives Shepard the exact same information and processing power the Reapers had and he comes to the conclusion the cycle must continue, only now the Reapers now how to evolve and adapt. The galaxy falls rapidly.

Congratulations - Synthesis was the only way to save the galaxy and you blew it because of you're a glowing-kidaphobe.

You can’t even tell me who Synthesis affects.


I can't tell you anything about Synthesis because you're openly hostile to the idea and refuse to see how it could be possible.

Handwavey pseudointellectualism may work on some audiences. It doesn’t work on me.


It works on people who have an interest in speculative science fiction, which is how a decent chunk of us experienced Mass Effect.

#1982
Taboo

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I have an interest in speculative science fiction.

It's still bollocks.

#1983
Heeden

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lillitheris wrote...

Heeden, I’m going to ask you the same question I did Ieldra2:

If you were there next to Shepard, instead of choosing one of the two options with known immediate outcomes, you would advise he or she select Synthesis, whose effects you do not know and can only guess at, which you cannot explain at all let alone in any detail, or offer any kind of assurance that it actually does anything to prevent this synthetic-organic conflict it is supposedly solving? This is based on your statements here in this thread.

And you believe that Shepard would take that advice?


I wouldn't need to be there, when faced with enslavement or genocide my Shepard would alway have to have a damned good reason not to take another option even if it is a step in to the unknown. For the record (and for the umpteenth time) my Shepard chose destroy, not because Synthesis is inherently bad but because up-lift can cause as many problems as it gives solutions. None of the choices have an inherently good or bad outcome, it's all down to what you consider will be best for the future.

#1984
Vigilant111

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Heeden wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Heeden, I’m going to ask you the same question I did Ieldra2:

If you were there next to Shepard, instead of choosing one of the two options with known immediate outcomes, you would advise he or she select Synthesis, whose effects you do not know and can only guess at, which you cannot explain at all let alone in any detail, or offer any kind of assurance that it actually does anything to prevent this synthetic-organic conflict it is supposedly solving? This is based on your statements here in this thread.

And you believe that Shepard would take that advice?


I wouldn't need to be there, when faced with enslavement or genocide my Shepard would alway have to have a damned good reason not to take another option even if it is a step in to the unknown. For the record (and for the umpteenth time) my Shepard chose destroy, not because Synthesis is inherently bad but because up-lift can cause as many problems as it gives solutions. None of the choices have an inherently good or bad outcome, it's all down to what you consider will be best for the future.


If control is enslavement and destroy is genocide, then what is synthesis?

#1985
Heeden

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Vigilant111 wrote...
I appreciate the fact that you are trying to comfort me about my choice and for reminding me how people could cut corners in terms of effort using MP

The ending is TOTALLY unsatisfying, even with that breath scene which I only saw on youtube. There is definately a discrepancy in terms of imagination between destroy and synthesis, I just don't see anything more than the red coloured explosion, no, destroy is not safe no matter how high your EMS is, destroy is definately disadvantaged, and I am afraid headcanoning is not gonna help


On the lowest EMS earth is destroyed by the red blast, on high EMS the reapers crackle and fall over whilst the soldiers cheer. It's some pretty clear symbolism at least.

No matter what you choose the galaxy is pretty feckered. Synthesis and Control have a leg up with the survival of Reaper tech but they also face the problems of getting people to accept them, and there's the up-lift conundrum of a society being "gifted" this kind of advancement instead of "earning" it.

I don't understand what is the link between war asset points and how finely constructed the Crucible is, I am guessing there is an inverse relationship between firepower and the amount of EMS.


Quite a few codex entries specifically mention how a particular war asset is aiding the Crucible construction project (as well as the Crucible having it's own specific section). Also having more assets in general means more energy can be put in to the Crucible project.

That (slightly) explains how galactic readiness relates to the refinement of the Crucible, which opens up new options and makes destroy only burn-out AI constructs, but the most important part is the symbolism of people on earth surviving and cheering.

If you have high EMS, you either have high galactic readiness or scored a lot of victories in the Galaxy at War. Both of those mean society, whilst battered, could be at it's most united state ever, and if you read a lot of the Crucible war asset entries we've come on in leaps and bounds insofar as cooperation and technical know-how goes. We have hit a dark point but unshackled from the Reaper cycle our future can be very bright.

#1986
Shaigunjoe

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Sheep blindly follow their shepards.


They are not sheep. They are people. If told the truth, more people will assume my viewpoint on the matter.

I have no issue with my Shepard saying that my actions caused this and through our negligence, we have caused our own issues.

It is not my job to dictate others lives. People will rebuild machines. That much I know, but there will be no singularity for ten thousand years.

It is NOT my responsibility to judge how the galaxy functions for all time.

As I've stated, I am morally repugnant for making this choice, but I will always assume responsibility.


I was mearly pointing out that the stargazer scene  hinted that humanity did follow shepards example, whatever it may have been. 

As far as responsibility and ethics are concerned, one of the earlier modern ethicist's Spinoza said something along the lines of in order to make good moral choices we must view our decisions not in their immediate effect but upon their impact to infinity.  In other words, yes, you are responsible for how your decisions impact the galaxy for all time.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 19 juin 2012 - 11:30 .


#1987
DrZann

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Nimrodell wrote...

If you have some spare time, look at these three video-interviews on tech singularity on the YouTube channel of Bigthink website - Jaron Lanier and Ray Kurzweil.

Also, I also sincerely recommend next video answers from professor Michio Kaku on the same YouTube channel:

Tweaking Moore's Law and the Computers of the Post-Silicon Era

The Dark Side of Technology

Could We Transport Our Consciousness Into Robots?

and

How to Stop Robots From Killing Us .

All his video naswers on Bigthink channel are wonderful, but these can help us understand what we're actually discussing.


Thanks. I had forgotten that scientists have been building computers using proteins and DNA. Did a quick search, very interesting seeing how far protein-based memory technology has progressed. Really sheds a new light on Synthesis.

#1988
Heeden

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Vigilant111 wrote...

If control is enslavement and destroy is genocide, then what is synthesis?


A step in to the unknown. Assuming Synthesis brings a new understanding between synthetics and organics, so we no longer see them as uppity tools and they no longer see us as mess and volatile chemical accidents. That still doesn't necessarily mean everyone will like each other or agree on everyone. The same crap that goes on in the galaxy now could carry one, only now it'll be organic and synthetic allies against their organic and synthetic enemies. Life could get a lot more horrible or it could get a lot better, it depends how you think the galaxy would handle the opportunities presented by Synthesis.

#1989
Taboo

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Shaigunjoe wrote...

I was mearly pointing out that the stargazer scene  hinted that humanity did follow shepards example, whatever it may have been. 

As far as responsibility and ethics are concerned, one of the earlier modern ethicist's Spinoza said something along the lines of in order to make good moral choices we must view our decisions not in their immediate effect but upon their impact to infinity.  In other words, yes, you are responsible for how your decisions impact the galaxy for all time.


One might easily view it as a legend lost to time or one similar to Greek Myths. They are called "The Shepherd". Notice that they use it as a title, not as a name.

You cannot bet against the infinite. To know what my choice will cause ten thousand years from now is very far fetched. I live for today. I believe that helping people is a job, not an ideaology. We will benefit those alive today to ensure hapiness for those tomorrow. Educating people against the mistreatment of Synthetics can help a great deal, as they will surely be built again. With this new knowledge, and Shepard's influence, we can work for a better tomorrow, today.

I believe the Stargazer Scene is there for one reason. To canonize all Shepards. To validate all the choices.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 11:40 .


#1990
AngryFrozenWater

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ghost9191 wrote...

well hmm, machines emulate life , but i feel geth are alive in the game, which is why i save them too, just felt like having a conversation about it, but that is for another thread sorry for bringing the topic into synthesis thread. i've been looking for a good thread on that topic but can't find one, just seems like a interesting thing to discuss.

anywho collectors are a good example of synthesis, anyway you look at it i think that shows what would happen in time with synthesis, but that is just me/. No limitations no advancement

Maybe it is a good time to bring the geth into this. ;)

The geth are self-aware, and capable of creative and independent thought. That's exactly how we function. The difference is that we are a biochemical computer and they are a synthetic computer. Add some senses and body parts and you have living organisms. ;)

The geth are pretty clear about determining their own future. They do not desire to be forced by anyone. Legion tells you this at least twice.

Legion: The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The geth will achieve their own future.

Shepard: What difference does it make how you acquire a certain technology?

Legion: Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara - Sovereign - said this itself. "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

The second time is even more interesting. Legion tells the same in different wording and also states that they are not hostile to organics.

Legion: You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics. You assisted us with the heretics. You do not fear us. We have watched organics for over three centuries. You are plagued by questions of existence.

Shepard: What do you mean by that?

Legion: Why were you created? What is your purpose in life? What lies after death? Organics develop religions and philosophies to provide answers to these questions.

Shepard: I wouldn't have thought synthetics would be interested in phylosophy.

Legion: We are created life. We are a philosophical issue. The geth know our answers to those questions. We are created to labor for the quarians. Our memories will be archived after death. We are immortal. Our "gods" disowned us. We must create our own reasons to exist.

Shepard: What reason have you come up with?

Legion: We are a shattered mind. Most platforms are unable to achieve consciousness on their own. We told you the geth are building our future.

Shepard: But you didn't say what it is.

Legion: A megastructure. The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere. When completed, we will all upload to it.

Shepard: What good will that do?

Legion: All memories will be shared. All perspectives will be unified. We gain intelligence by sharing thoughts. But we do not have adequate hardware for all of us to share at once. No geth will be alone when it is done.

Shepard: That's what Sovereign offered you. A reaper's body for you to all upload into.

Legion: Yes. A shortcut to our objective. We will achieve it ourselves. The process is as important as the result. We judge that Shepard-Commander would understand. We never wanted to harm organics. We wish to improve ourselves.

Obviously the geth wouldn't like synthesis forced upon them. Nor do they want to be driven by an external force that determines their future. The right of self-determination must be pretty important for them. After all: "Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives." and "The process is as important as the result."

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 19 juin 2012 - 11:50 .


#1991
Shaigunjoe

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I was mearly pointing out that the stargazer scene  hinted that humanity did follow shepards example, whatever it may have been. 

As far as responsibility and ethics are concerned, one of the earlier modern ethicist's Spinoza said something along the lines of in order to make good moral choices we must view our decisions not in their immediate effect but upon their impact to infinity.  In other words, yes, you are responsible for how your decisions impact the galaxy for all time.


One might easily view it as a legend lost to time or one similar to Greek Myths. They are called "The Shepherd". Notice that they use the name as a title, not as a name.

You cannot bet against the infinite. To know what my choice will cause ten thousand years from now is very far fetched. I live for today. I believe that helping people is a job, not an ideaology. We will benefit those alive today to ensure hapiness for those tomorrow. Educating people against the mistreatment of Synthetics can help a great deal, as they will surely be built again. With this new knowledge, and Shepard's influence, we can work for a better tomorrow, today.

I believe the Stargazer Scene is there for one reason. To canonize all Shepards. To validate all the choices.


Nobody is betting against the infinite, not sure why you keep saying that.  Living in the  now is good, but people have a responsibility to future generations regarding the decisions they make now.  Look at environmentalism as an example.

If you want to have such a straight forward view about the SG scene fine, but the parrellels of Shepards story to that of JC clearly shows that she is an example that is to be followed.

#1992
Taboo

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Shaigunjoe wrote...

Nobody is betting against the infinite, not sure why you keep saying that.  Living in the  now is good, but people have a responsibility to future generations regarding the decisions they make now.  Look at environmentalism as an example.

If you want to have such a straight forward view about the SG scene fine, but the parrellels of Shepards story to that of JC clearly shows that she is an example that is to be followed.


The Synthesis people are. That's exactely what I mean. Educating people about the enviroment today will help ALL people tomorrow. See how this works?

The Stargazer scene was suggested in a letter to Bioware by a young child. It is a paralell to all great figures. If you are religious, I can see why you'd choose Jesus. I however, am not religious.

Shepard is not an avatar of God, he is a man/woman.
He is more akin to someone like Che Guevara or Bobby Sands. Both are controversial figures, and both have people who blindly follow them. And depending on who you are, they both did ethically dubious things.

I support Bobby Sands idea of protest, but not his involvement in the IRA.

I do not support Che Guevara at all.

You are WAY overestimating this.

He is "The Sheperd". A great leader, not a God.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juin 2012 - 11:59 .


#1993
Heeden

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Obviously the geth wouldn't like synthesis forced upon them. Nor do they want to be driven by an external force that determines their future. The right of self-determination must be pretty important for them. After all: "Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives." and "The process is as important as the result."


Geth have already achieved the effects of Synthesis through Legion's adventures with Shepard, they stopped being merely sentient machines and became sapient - Legion did this whole thing where he stated referring to himself as "I", Tali told him he had a soul then he sacrificed himself to gift that to the whole Geth collective.

#1994
His Name was HYR!!

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ghost9191 is right. Synthetics are not equal to organic life, and do not have a soul. They're just machines.

#1995
Heeden

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Taboo-XX wrote...


Shepard is not an avatar of God, he is a man/woman.



He is however the avatar of our cylce.

#1996
Taboo

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Heeden wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Obviously the geth wouldn't like synthesis forced upon them. Nor do they want to be driven by an external force that determines their future. The right of self-determination must be pretty important for them. After all: "Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives." and "The process is as important as the result."


Geth have already achieved the effects of Synthesis through Legion's adventures with Shepard, they stopped being merely sentient machines and became sapient - Legion did this whole thing where he stated referring to himself as "I", Tali told him he had a soul then he sacrificed himself to gift that to the whole Geth collective.


Then there is no need for Synthesis if they have achieved Synthesis.

#1997
Taboo

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Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


Shepard is not an avatar of God, he is a man/woman.



He is however the avatar of our cylce.


So? You assume that people are going to resort to cult like behavior.

#1998
Heeden

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Then there is no need for Synthesis if they have achieved Synthesis.


The Reapers have not, most organics in the galaxy are "bound by the hardware limitations of organics" that make them instinctively fear synthetics (Shepard is not, which is why the Geth took an interest in him).

#1999
Heeden

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Taboo-XX wrote...

So? You assume that people are going to resort to cult like behavior.

No I don't.

#2000
Taboo

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People are suspicious because they are animals, if they are educated to be equals, they will treat others as equals.

People have been told to fear Synthetics because of the Geth. They took no time to understand them. The same goes for AI constructs.

That's what the Rannoch Arc proves. An understanding is possible.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 juin 2012 - 12:07 .